A Day Without
In the wee hours before the kick-off the Day Without Immigrants activities, it feels like today’s protests are going to be once again of historic proportions.
Here in Los Angeles, the probable epicenter among the 60 or cities in which events are planned, officials are expecting crowds that could surpass the half-millon who rocked the city on March 25. Several major thoroughfares are scheduled to be shut down. Numerous employers are also shuttering for the day.
As the case in other venues, there are mixed views here about what strategy should best be pursued. The local Catholic cardinal, the Mayor, organized labor and the most prominent among immigrant advocate groups are supporting an after-work rally and march (a position that overlaps with mine). A coalition of smaller groups are advocating a walkout from jobs and schools and a noontime rally. Beneath the surface of that disagreement is a mostly un-reported struggle for leadership over the mushrooming movement.
Most likely, however, these differences will be over-ridden by sheer, massive numbers. The media is not very likely to make much of a distinction between the two camps (nor will most of the participants). That’s OK. And rather inevitable, given what I also think will be a breathtaking turn-out both here and Los Angeles and nationwide.
This next wave of demonstrations — a movement way and I mean way beyond the control of any single force– comes as new polls show continuing evolution of public opinion in favor of comprehensive immigration reform. That shift raises the stakes of the May Day demos. My fingers are crossed that they will go off as peacefully and as effectively as the big demos of the past weeks. Some wild cards are students who are likely to ignore the calls of the Cardinal and of Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa to not blow off school. As a former young person myself, I can readily attest to youthful impetuousness!
There’s also a fringe of “revolutionary” sects who traditionally celebrate May Day by trying to wrestle with the LAPD. These grouplets have attached themselves to today’s events — but let’s hope they don’t wreck it for others (as masterful they are in the fine art of wrecking).
There’s no question in my mind that we are in the midst of an historic, new social movement. It’s taken decades to build and reach critical mass and it is still going to take years to mature and fully pay off. So far, the cool-headed long-term strategists have dominated. My wish is they continue in the leadership of the movement.
The political establishment is still, for the most part, clueless. Entrenched hypocrisy has so long been the official policy that few political leaders are fully prepared to deal with this emgerging reality. And not just the establishment, I might add. Much of the liberal and progressive left is having difficulty getting their arms around all this. The ignorance and confusion, for example, surrounding the notion of a guest worker program is simply stunning. A whole load of lefties are stuck believing that this is a proposal for a new bracero program. Their ideological stiffness has blocked them from doing any real research on the matter and learning, it should be stressed, that liberals from Ted Kennendy to Raul Grijalva have been toiling away to make these program proposals smart, comprehensive and guarantors of labor rights (Oh well, I’m not gonna go on about this. If you haven’t read enough of this elsewhere to understand what’s happening, I’m not about to convince you with one blog past). I will note in passing that at this weekend’s past state Democratic Party convention the issue of immigration never came up! During his numerous convention appearances, the words immigration and immigrant didn’t cross the lips of Phil Angelides, the state treasurer and gubernatorial candidate officially endorsed by the Party (his rival, Steve Westly, however, forthrightly endorsed legalization of the undocumented already here).
In short, if there are no severe disruptions or provocations, today’s coast-to-coast demonstrations should be more compelling, undeniable evidence of the integral role that “illegal aliens” play in our very vibrant economy and societal fabric. With some luck they will help move forward some concrete, achievable, practical and sensible measures that will help legalize those whom we allow to work for us but whom we refuse to recognize or acknowledge.
P.S. The always wonderful-to-read Gustavo Arellano weighs in with this mini-profile of self-proclaimed boycott leader Nativo Lopez. Required reading.
May 1st, 2006 at 12:32 am
It’s not that folks are clueless, it’s that the hypocrisy allows folk to benefit from policies they would be forced to oppose, if they had to vote on them.
The fence is gonna be built (“free” gov’t money!).
There will be a real crackdown on illegals; prolly not enough to stem the tide.
I think there will be full amnesty for some illegals, but that some Reps will lose their seats for this issue — so the crackdown forces will become more powerful.
Your analysis, Marc, fails to predict who will lose what elections based on what positions.
I’ll be interested to see “what happened” later today, but now it’s time for my rainy-day MayDay picnic (still a holiday in Slovakia)
May 1st, 2006 at 1:14 am
Jesus Christ, I’m tired of this tune. There was a rally today to raise awareness of genocide in Darfur and you are filing your 97th post on the wonders of illegal immigration and the “new social movement” that anybody with their head screwed on realizes, in effect, will do nothing more than guarantee plenty of cheap labor to some of the worst people in America.
Get a grip. McCain-Kennedy is a rotten bill because it will institutionalize the perverse euphemism “guest workers”. As Michelle Martin said on Maher, we had a class of people doing all of the shitty work without right of citizens for years. They were called “black people”. America can do better than go back to that. A pragmatic amnesty helps – “guest workers” start the cycle all over again, “Europeanizing” our work force with a large sector that isn’t assimilated, can’t participate fully in civil society and are encouraged not to be part of the community over the long term.
Give amnesty to families that are established here and then enforce the fuck out of our labor laws. Stop the guest-worker bullshit as part of the “deal” being brokered. Provide for fully verifiable identification for future employment. At the populist end of this one, cut the “La Raza” crap, the “Build a Wall” crap and the rest of the ridiculous competing ethnic/paranoid agendas, and be done with it.
And, of course, any movement of which the crazy left is competing for leadership isn’t the next great wave of social change – it’s doomed to be as about as effective as the anti-Iraq war movement was over the long haul, regardless of numbers – which was very slight and damn near everyone who participated were citizens. But the “white men in charge” weren’t about to listen on that issue – on this one the demos are playing as part of their tune because – while they’d probably prefer the status quo – Sensenbrenner’s bill is anathema to them.
What the hell is the change that will come of these immigration demos – other than what one of the most conservative men in America is already fighting for in his Senatorial bill – which is making de jure what his friends have already created de facto in the interest of exploitation ? Of course I’m “on the wrong side of history” because our current history is being created by the dynamics of capital. Nothing more and nothing less. I’m underwhelmed by all of this talke of a “movement” – mostly since it’s obviously a done deal because (did I mention this?) the truly powerful white people want to cut it. They’ve intended to overide their “populist” allies on the crackpot right from Day One and the demonstrations will help them pull it off. In my view – which doesn’t privilige illegal labor markets – this movement is just about bolstering support for McCain-Kennedy, and thus it’s not worth a hell of a lot. A bit of common sense, mixed with some very bad ideas. As I’ve said before, guests don’t clean your toilet. In reality – as opposed to emotions and perceptions – it’s turning into an attempt to manipulate several overlapping single-issue interest groups rather than generate sound, progressive, coherent social policy that’s part of a broader, inclusive vision.* If it were more than that, John McCain wouldn’t be one of it’s great white hopes.
*Not that anybody else is generating a broader inclusive vision effectively, but illegal immigration is an absolute detriment to liberal, pro-working class politics over the long run (“liberal” as opposed to “left-wing fabulist”), for reasons that should be obvious – fracturing and depressing labor markets even further, creating a “globalization” impact even on jobs that can’t be exported, stressing already over-burdened social services and providing fodder for a reactionary populist politics, among other things.
Now, shoot me…
May 1st, 2006 at 1:59 am
It’s tough to follow such an impassioned critique, but I do have a few questions.
Since were not talking about immigration in general, but immigration from Mexico in particular, doesn’t the supply side of the immigration equation deserve robust discussion?
Can anything be done to improve the quality of life south of the border? Is there anyway to undo NAFTA’s damage? Is the Mexican gov’t too corrupt to trust with aid? Is it just me, or isn’t this about way more than fences and guest workers?
May 1st, 2006 at 6:03 am
[...] Charging up all multimedia apparati for what promises to be a historic May Day rally for immigration rights and reform in Los Angeles. [...]
May 1st, 2006 at 6:18 am
Marc, I’m a little mystified, wondering when the cheerleading stops and the analysis continues (begins?). It’s great and all, to underline (over, and over, and over…) the optimistic side in all this, but when does the hardhitting journalistic approach take front and center again? I’m finding I have to visit Kaus a lot more often to get some meatier takes on the immigration developments, which is surprising because he’s not the one I’d consider the expert on immigration.
“Oh well, I’m not gonna go on about this…I’m not about to convince you with one blog post”
Well there we have it–an official cop-out. It’s find to admit you’re not willing or able to analyze this from a non-cheerleading perspective, Marc, but then you might want to stop sounding ridiculous criticizing those of us who are at least honestly attempting to “get our arms around this”. Again, I’ll keep checking in to see when (if?) the cheerleading gives way to analysis, but given the dominant pattern here, I won’t hold my breath. This is one issue where I’ve learned a hell of a lot more from the commenters than I have the blogger. Ah, well.
May 1st, 2006 at 7:26 am
One more thing – this movement isn’t about immigration reform. It’s about sanctifying illegal immigration from one country. The demo’s agenda statement about “providing for an effective visa program for immigrants” is complete and total bullshit, because the coalition completely evades any discussion of dealing with the “demand” end of illegal immigration – i.e. at the point of employment. In fact, “an effective visa program for immigrants with a path to citizenship” will probably be lessened, given the need for a pragmatic amnesty that will include some millions. The coalitioin doesn’t want a fairer deal for people who want immigrate to this country – unless you happen to be in the proximity of our southern border. This is an interest group which is rooted in the particularities of a place of birth – just south of the U.S. border. And they obviously don’t give a shit about the question of the impact of unfettered immigration on the U.S. labor market. The angle is just as skewed as it is from a “nativist” perspective. Except at least the nativists are more honest and coherent in their rhetoric. (“Illegal” isn’t an obscene euphemism – if you’re looking for one of those, try “guest worker”, or conflate immigrant to blur the lines between someone who spent years waiting to get a visa and someone who snuck in.) The SEIU and other unions involved are – as unions typically do when push comes to shove – looking at this from the vantage point of the workforce they deal with and looking for a compromise which will make their organizing a bit easier. Fine, but there’s nothing sacred about their participation from the perspective of social policy or “abstract” social justice. The majority of people who want to immigrate to this country, get visas and have a shot at some sort of material betterment are not only ignored but probably being hurt by this “social movement” because it’s all about people who can fairly easily access one of our borders and not about anybody else.
May 1st, 2006 at 8:15 am
So what happens when the African-American community and the unions realize that the Democratic party just threw them overboard for Latinos?
May 1st, 2006 at 8:29 am
“It’s about sanctifying illegal immigration from one country.”
That’s about it. All that will come from this stunt is more people will elect the next Republican no matter how badly they fail at everything. You might as well advertise for ANSWER and have it over with.
May 1st, 2006 at 8:29 am
I’m going to add one more comment to this thread and it will be my last on this issue because of work/travel.
The more I look at the big picture, the more I think that part of the long-term solution should include ceding Texas back to Mexico. The people who run Texas should be quite comfortable in their new status as part of the Mexican bourgeousie. As far as I’m concerned, this is a better “compromise” than what the Mexican bourgeousie currently promotes – which is integrating their poverty-stricken labor markets into those of the U.S.
Can I see a show of hands ?
May 1st, 2006 at 8:59 am
What does this great new social movement stand for, what are its goals, Marc? It’s all grand and breathtaking and exciting to march around with flags unfurling and sticking it to The Man, but what are the goals of the movement?
May 1st, 2006 at 9:31 am
“sticking it to The Man”
“The Man”, according to NPR, is – at least in the case of large poultry and meatpacking plants and some others that depend on Mexico’s labor market to get “appropriate” employees – giving the masses the day off so they can demonstrate against Sensenbrenner. Capitalism is doomed.
May 1st, 2006 at 9:36 am
To hear Marc tell it, we should put our faith in Ted Kennedy and John McCain because they’ve been toiling long and hard. Ted Kennedy was one of those who voted for the failed 1986 bill, and we know how that turned out. Many of us have little faith in Ted Kennedy’s judgment and are quickly doubting that of John McCain.
I haven’t seen Marc cover the economics or fairness or the K-M proposal. It’s all been social issues without the in-depth discussion of the details concerning costs. Without a straight-forward cost-benefit anlaysis it’s hardly fair to ask the American people to decide whether they wish to support amnesty for illegal aliens, or for their continued presence in our country. Thus far from what I’ve read of neutral well-considered economic studies, illegal immigrants receive more monetary reward out of our government infrastructure than they put in. This makes them an economic liability at this point.
Most of us feel sorry for illegal aliens, but when it comes to sacrificing the long term welfare of our nation based on an ill considered plan, we object.
May 1st, 2006 at 10:03 am
Marc,
What makes this movement more powerful is that it doesn’t have one leader, and doesn’t have one group leading the charge.
That prevents one leader/group from being the weak link and primary target of the media and others.
It is the fact that this movement is focused on one goal (just path to citizenship) with many different smaller groups united around that goal.
Among other things, MySpace, email, cell phone SMS and the web generally are allowing this movement to succeed.
May 1st, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Marc Cooper,
You kicked mutha-fuckin’ ass on “To the Point”!
http://www.kcrw.com/
May 1st, 2006 at 1:00 pm
Reg, is it okay if we keep Austin?
PS: From my perspective, for Marc NOT to be blogging about immigration this morning would seem absurd. Yes, Darfur is of desperate and urgent importance (and, bless George Clooney for using his celebrity recently to focus attention on the world’s unconscionable non-involvement). But, for a journalist like Marc who writes about immigration policy—for today anyway—the marches are the story.
May 1st, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Tim,
Sure Tim, the movement should have a dozen leaders with a like number of agendas. That will be a GREAT show of unity of purpose. Confuse us with incoherence. I like it.
May 1st, 2006 at 2:02 pm
Like you said Marc, I think divisions over whether to do a one-day boycott will not be part of any official story of what happens today.
Whether there will be a backlash also depends a lot, I think, on how this is framed: as an all-out economic boycott or as a look at what life would be like without immigrant workers. The latter idea is pretty creative, I think — maybe what was needed to inspire people for another march.
Lastly, it’s hard to gauge from the outside how internally divided this movement is. While the official national groups have apparently not endorsed any boycott, in the LA Times two big leaders of organizations in that movement, seem to give it a big thumbs up: Mike Garcia, President of the famous janitor’s union – SEIU 1877, and Pablo Alvarado, head of the National Day Labor Organization Network. See here for the official coalition: http://todayweact.org/en/Coalition_Members A guy like Diaz might be a nice resource for these more institutional players — to rely on to rev things up, and in comparison to which their positions seem pretty reasonable.
Diaz does seem like a megalomaniac (“I changed history”), but like most movements, there doesn’t seem to be a clear chain of command here, and he’s one of the voices out there.
This is an especially tough position, because whereas in the civil rights movement, there was a clear end in sight that many (whites) could agree on; there seem to be lasting limits, based on the idea of borders and discrete nations that most accept, which puts a braking point on how much “immigrant rights” we want.
No conclusions, just some thoughts.
Also check out this editorial from the SF Chronicle, which seems pretty in line with Marc’s view:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/01/EDGK5IFLO11.DTL
May 1st, 2006 at 2:16 pm
I guess I agree with you, Reg. The marchers are giving the bosses what they want: slave labor. I guess I would disagree that “capitalism is doomed,” although it will be a Third world style capitalism built on the hierarchy enshrined by this movement.
May 1st, 2006 at 2:33 pm
It does seem historic. It’s giving a big middle finger to the scapegoating, demonizing House bill. From the Chicago Tribune:
“Charles Williams of Chicago Police Department now estimates the crowd at 400,000.
He says no arrests were reported as of about 3:45 p.m. One person needed emergency medical service and transport by the Chicago Fire Department after fainting. A few kids ended up at the lost child tent.
Williams says there have been no huge traffic hassles and he calls the demonstration “a very good march.”
4:02 p.m.: Cheers erupt as speakers, almost equally in Spanish and English, praise the crowd for their activism and commitment. U.S. Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.), the architect of a plan to legalize illegal immigrants, said: “This is not just a march. You are setting a newer pathway to a more democratic, more compassionate America.”
Jose Artemio Arreola, a key march organizer and executive with a federation of immigrants from the Mexican state of Michoacan says, “For those of you who are exhausted, for those of you who walked, your work and sacrifice has been worth it.”
Tom Balanoff, president of the Service Employees International Union Local 1, says it is important to protect the labor rights of immigrants who help clean offices, take care of hospital patients and work in factories.
“It is time for us to go into the deepest values of our country, to honor those who work hard and build our country,” he says.
There’s a large union presence with many non-immigrant participants wearing T-shirts and jackets from their locals.
May 1st, 2006 at 2:49 pm
My world was not affected today by the boycott except for groaning about one thing.
CNN was covering the LA rally and talked with some woman named Rodriguez with the United Farm Workers (I think she is Cesar Chavez’s daughter). She was calling for higher wages for the illegal workers. The host with CNN asked her if the illegal workers were responsible for bringing down the wages of everyone. (They do.) She replied that there were many other factors that affected wages, and that we shouldn’t be coming down on (now, here’s where I just gave it up) the VICTIMS. She referred to illegal immigrants as victims!
Is this really the mindset of the left–to say that people who are here illegally and make illegal use of social security numbers are victims…and that people demanding enforcing our laws are somehow thinking criminally?
Given the unique use of the English language by the left, I’m going to have to throw out my dictionary. (That depends upon what the definition of throw is.)
May 1st, 2006 at 2:55 pm
Peter K,
I hate to seem tiresome but I must have my point acknowleged. There is no need for Congress to further “demonize” illegal immigrants by calling them felons for staying here illegally. Those who have participated in identitiy theft by using forged documents are already felons, and could be convicted of that crime if we had the resources to do so. I guess that we already have millions of felon illegal immigrants. I love the law.
May 1st, 2006 at 3:12 pm
Those in Texas would rather cede California back to Mexico because California is already semi-socialist and wouldn’t have as hard a time assimilating to the political system.
May 1st, 2006 at 3:23 pm
http://clevercaption.com/3178.html
Were the pilgrims the first illegals entering the country?
May 1st, 2006 at 3:27 pm
The good news is that the marches were less than spectacular and no doubt disappointing to the reconquistas and amnistas. A Mexican politician speaking at a demonstration south of the border said that illegal aliens are in the U.S. to take back the land she claimed rigthfully belongs to Mexico. How well do think that’ll play in Peoria? One could still see those Mexican flags in the crowd. I thought I could just make out Virgil wrapped in one.
May 1st, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Probably Monk8, but the genocidal Hispanic conquest of South and Central America far outstripped what the Pilgrims did. And Mexicans have nothing on the U.S. when it comes to protecting their sourthern border. No nice detention centers or brotherlylove for their even more poverty stricken compadres, just the heave ho. Mexican Hispanics will cry out injustice in our streets, but fail to give justice to those are even more pathetic than they. This who affair wreaks of hipocracy.
May 1st, 2006 at 3:36 pm
First, let mercenaries stop the genocide in Darfur — I notice neither Clooney nor any other anti-war folk are quite willing to chose war when it’s obvious there are only two dogs in that race:
war or genocide. So, Dems & Reps can pay mercenaries, despite Kofi’s objectitions.
Then, after Darfur becomes independent, the mercenaries can go to Baha Cal. — and organize a referrendum on whether Baha wants to become a part of the USA. A Yes vote; and a big new LARGE coast, great real-estate speculation possible new 51 state! (With 50 years to learn English as a second language.)
And now, here’s the sound of John Denver being strangled: ‘You came on my pillow arrrrghhhhh.”
May 1st, 2006 at 4:08 pm
A Day Without? Hmmm………? I got it, A Day Without Illegal Immigrants is a day without a devisive foreign presence in the U.S? It took me a while to get Marc’s point. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:21 pm
CNN has announced that the government of Mexico is about to pass a law permitting the use small amounts of heroin, cocaine and other drugs by its citizens. We no longer have to worry about peyotte smoking foreigners jumping our border. Our real concern will be with the big boy habits they bring with them. Is this one of those Mexican cultural values that we wish to see imported to America? Next, marches in the streets in support of addictive drugs.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:35 pm
The adoption of liberal drug laws is an anathema to the American way of life. It is only one symbol of the difference between the cultural values of Mexians and Americans. It is a poigniant reminder of the decadence that has perpetuated their third world status. This is another reason why immigration from Mexico should be strictly controlled. This new initiative by Mexico is also another strike against the argument for amnesty.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Yeah, it’s been a real hardship.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:38 pm
The addictions border jumping Mexicans will soon find their way across our borders and find their way into the Hispanic community and into our populace as a whole.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:43 pm
“it’s hardly fair to ask the American people to decide whether they wish to support amnesty for illegal aliens, or for their continued presence in our country.”
George, can you imagine your ancestors being able to get easy entry into the US if it weren’t for massive illegal manipulations of the law to protect their easy entry?
May 1st, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Mr. Cooper’s not the only one, Lou Dobbs is also freaking out about the ‘radical’ ‘anarchists’ and assorted evil red elements that have ‘taken over’ the immigrant rights movement. Mr. Cooper’s not in the ‘let’s pack the illegals into freight trains like sardines and ship’em back at gunpoint’ camp of Dobbs’ ilk…he deserves that much credit.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:53 pm
Aaron, your point is in need of further elaboration.
Every country reaches a point in its development that it must control its immigration process. Some people in this blog has been reaching back to the Pilgrims, Puritans and Indians in making analogies to the Mexican illegal immigrant question. This is as manifesty absurd as the Italians wishing for the return of the glory days of the Roman empire.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:04 pm
And what does the “out of Iraq”, “war is never the answer” crowd recommend we do in Darfur? Meanwhile, there are those reporting that the various factions in Sudan are close to an accord on ending the genocide that isn’t (according to the International Community) a genocide.
As for the illegal problem – we’ve talked this one to death and still find ourselves at:
1. Let ‘em in.
2. Kick ‘em out.
Did I miss a thread?
Me? Enforce the law or change the law – seems very simple either way.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:05 pm
I’m considering opening a travel agency specializing in Mexico. I figure that I can pick a few towns in Mexico where my aficionados could sample the various nuances of drugs from the various Mexican states.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:29 pm
Marc,
(Can’t you ban GEOREGE WILLIAMS from this blog?? To say that this fool is an attention whore would be an understatement…).
These marches and boycotts have served a purpose. We’re all talking about immigration the way we should have been doing a long time ago. There is no denying that immigrant workers are the backbone of much of our economy. Now the technicalities of extending them working permits, citizenships, amnesty, or not, that is for the government and the people to decide. Let’s do so in a rational and objective manner. Let’s leave the paranoia aside.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:35 pm
You’re right too many steves, but Congress has a short memory. One has to stir the pot over and over again to awaken the complacent and remind the ultraliberals that we are nation of laws. The recent history of our nation is full of examples where ill considered legislation is enacted for the sake of expedience and misplaced sympathies. Some of us won’t rest until McCain-Kennedy is dead legislation and common sense prevails. M-K is just another case of unworkable feel-good Congressional legislation that has no bones.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Jara,
My ancestors were legal immigrants, but I don’t claim any special superiority of immigrants. Immigrants are great. The great wave of turn-of the century immigration is one of the great wonders of our history.
Jara fails to give credence to the rights of those sons of immigrants and recent legal immigrant citizens to effect an orderly immigration policy. I speak of the great electorate who cherish this great Republic. The current mob that’s crossed the border in the past 20-years has shown no regard for the heritage of those who have come before them. To them, it’s just a bone to pick and rule of law is meanless. Illegal immigrants believe that those who shout the loudest wins. In my book, that’s mob rule.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:46 pm
Pardon my misspellings. They’re an expression of my enthusiasm.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:47 pm
Jara: “Can’t you ban GEOREGE WILLIAMS from this blog?? To say that this fool is an attention whore would be an understatement….”
As I understand it, Williams is a major donor to Pajamas Media and Cooper would get in hot water if he banned him. Plus, Cooper really seems to prefer the company of such people to the screwy left like Michael Moore or Cindy Sheehan.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:52 pm
Grossman,
I’m proud to say that I’m in blissful ignorance of your allusions, and care to remain so. It’s funny how the extreme left shouts to the heavens when censored, yet demands the censorship of those with opinions contrary to theirs.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:55 pm
To the Grossmand and Jara twins:
Insult me if you will, but spell my name right.
May 1st, 2006 at 5:58 pm
George Williams:
Your particular gripe seems to be that so many of these immigrant workers are *ILLEGAL* I wonder then what other issues regarding illegalities do you subscribe to?
Use of illegal drugs? (Yes, still a crime, now imagine if all the users of illegal drugs were to get punished? The streets would definitely be empty. Would mass punishment of drug users be even remotely realistic?).
Illegal business tactics in corporate America? How strenous does the law extend to fight this? Halliburton is still in business….
Illegal wars? Illegally occupying another country ? (Ironic, isn’t it?). Mr. Williams, why not take an issue with the illegal occupation of Iraq? Why don’t you enlighten us with your cornocopia of law-breaking issues. I’m sure your gripe with all things illegal spans on an even terrain…
May 1st, 2006 at 6:06 pm
Good night. Grossman and Jara, carry on massaging each others egos. Maybe Virgil will step in and expound on and on, about the cruel history of capitalist America and its depredations on the rest of humanity.
May 1st, 2006 at 6:10 pm
Thought I was done. Jara, I prefer to carry on one crusade at a time. If I don’t focus my energy on this one issue, I’ll dissipate my energy among the many.
May 1st, 2006 at 6:12 pm
Williams, I think Grossman was pointing out who the extreme left really is. It’s a shame you can’t distinguish between parties that want to dialogue and parties that only want to yell. In regards to banning you from this blog, it is a personal blog afterall. Marc has every right to ban annoyances.
May 1st, 2006 at 6:15 pm
Williams,
Your words prove my point EXACTLY. Next time let’s expect some “opening up”. Tell us *exactly* why illegal immigrants bother you. Their illegality is just a cover-up for your true disdain.
May 1st, 2006 at 6:57 pm
With a name like George Williams you would be a WASP, therefore you would be a racist.
That card should neutralize your arguments, and he did it without even having to say the word, George. This guys good.
May 1st, 2006 at 7:19 pm
“Some people in this blog has been reaching back to the Pilgrims, Puritans and Indians in making analogies to the Mexican illegal immigrant question.”
Sure, it was an empty land back then even given the indigenous population who cut down trees burned land and made an ecological mark in their own right long before Euopeans arrived. Now you can’t drive across town. And the Mexicans come from a devastated landscape. Some of those practices are practiced here. I’ve seen the litter. They, the indigenous “natives” also killed one another fighting over resources contrary to the far leftist version of the Noble Savage. Let me tell you what: counting coups is a violent an act as there is. Same with canibalism and shrunken heads as trophies. I recommend a listen to “Telegraph Road.” Progress hasn’t been pretty.
May 1st, 2006 at 7:21 pm
No George. You can’t accuse him of being the real racist. There’s only one ‘race’ card in this cheap deck, and he played it first.
May 1st, 2006 at 7:26 pm
two people walk into a bank, right? both make withdrawls, right? one uses a bank card, the other uses a 38. which one is the thief? this is not a trick question.
May 1st, 2006 at 7:38 pm
For the record, lower-case “rich” is not I.
May 1st, 2006 at 8:04 pm
I drove across Hollywood in record time. Traffic was like on a holiday, and I’m sure most legal residents of Los Angeles are wondering why there can’t be a boycott every day.
reg writes: “when does the hardhitting journalistic approach take front and center again?”
Cooper is just a propagandist. Note, for instance, a recent article in which he claimed that “enforcement-only” had failed. However, he only mentioned border enforcement and did not mention that we do almost no workplace enforcement. Come here for the cheerleading, not for the facts.
George Williams writes: “A Mexican politician speaking at a demonstration south of the border said that illegal aliens are in the U.S. to take back the land she claimed rigthfully belongs to Mexico.”
Do you have a cite for that?
May 1st, 2006 at 9:13 pm
Marc must be contemplating the great value of the blog by this point, happy slogging Marc…lol. The conversation in here reminds me of when children twirl in circles for the feel and the fun, it was more exciting when I was a child.
Reg had a good go of it, the only problem with the point is that we are just at the beginning of the impact of “capitalist/corporate globalization. These problems will rapidly excellerate because we live in a country that does not care about people, let me explain:
when you rape democracy as repeatedly as those the American public has put into office, there is no where to go – there is no where to go because your representatives do not listen to you, they only listen to corporations.
There is no where to go because the people have been robbed of any democractic shelter. There is no where for the immigrant to go, because they are beset by the G8 corporate force in their own countries – it creates a desperate atmosphere, hence there is sheer verbal blood letting by people in the United States. Who created this atmosphere, we all did – as a people we have swallowed more bullshit than I care or have the room in this venue to elaborate. However, still – still no one addresses the real issues!
George talks about the Republic – George, the Republic is gone, we crossed our Rubicon a long time ago, did you miss the boat? Everyone mourn for the Republic.
Tim, your enthusiasm about the internet is good, but it is on the ropes. It is about to be sold off, did you think such a powerful media, that was a good portion of the impetus for this immigrant rights activism, would be left in the hands of the people?
You see, the only part of the whole left out of the capitalistic equation is PEOPLE. People are to be used merely for the bottom line, people are more disposable than our surrent throw away products.
What you are looking at is the refuse of Fascism, when you talk about disposable people. What is fascism? Not all fascism looks the same, but it bears a similar image – “Fascism should more appropriately called corporatism because it is the merger of State and corporate power” – Mussolini
Sound familiar?
Now, even though the primary moving force of this immigrant movement is self-interest, they have been kind enough to give us a living example of the VALUE of people. However, our government has been moving further and further away from regard for, and the value of, people.
Currently, the nexus of this present system is enrichment of the few – this is the end goal and result of all capitalism, which historically always ends up as the bedfellow of fascism, which sets itself in motion through corporations. Do you understand what we are facing?
The cradle for this form of government has come from the West, it changes leadership occasionally, it is now theturn of the United States to take the reigns – so to speak. It has grown and become more virulent over time – it has global aspirations. There is nothing conspiratorial here, it has become systemic, and it only benefits an elite few.
It creates an elite few in each nation – swallows the democratic landscape (including good jobs) in every country, and turns it over to a ruling aristocracy in each country. It takes over everything – the land, the resources, the commons, and privatizes it for the few. Once again for emphasis, it disenfranchizes people – THAT IS IT’S WEAKNESS.
What has to be done? The people have to face off against it, take back the reigns of government, disolve the potency of it’s instrument (corporations), by definition – not necessarily by total dissolution. The people have to take back the means of production. To be brief, government has to become more consensus oriented – it has to be participatory – it has to be inclusionary. I will leave the particulars to your imagination.
Now, go ahead and knock yourselves out to deny what I have written, but expect to be answered.
May 1st, 2006 at 9:50 pm
“The people have to face off against it, take back the reigns of government, dissolve the potency of it’s instrument (corporations), by definition – not necessarily by total dissolution. The people have to take back the means of production.”
Hasn’t this been done before Virgil? With questionable results as I remember. Isn’t it called Communism or Socialism. Good post btw.
Unfortunately for the people, governments seem to lurch between extremes. Too much greedy capitalism or too much s(m)othering socialism.
I think the USA has the best opportunity to change the balance in a democratic way. If you vote democratic, you are likely to get more socialism, with its positives(more redistribution of wealth) and negatives(governments just can’t run corporations well). Vote for a republican and you are likely to get more capitalism with its faults. Don’t you agree?
May 1st, 2006 at 10:07 pm
Latin America is the future of the United States of America!
How do you like your backyard now?
May 1st, 2006 at 10:32 pm
Jim,
I can understand your point Jim, there is only one problem – I have never been a proponent for Stalinism. Please notice two specific words in what I wrote “consensus and participation,” which hardly describes the late defunct Soviet model. This also does away with the present corporate form that is top down, in common fascistic manner.
I am not talking about centralism, in fact I am not even talking about a representative form of government. That is not your fault – this is not the place for a full treatise of what I believe we need.
Briefly, I do not believe in limited access to political decisions – as seen in forms of centralism and representation. I believe both of these afor systems result in control by an elite. I hold to consensus-disensus, arriving at a consensus, and if there is still a failure to agree, resources are than split by majority and minority proportional to the percentages (I know these are extremely general terms but bare with me).
There must be equal access to commonwealth for all. This is because if you do not have decentralization of wealth, you will never have equal distribution of power. I am sure you will agree that those who have the wealth hold the political power in the system, don’t you? If you do not than I suggest you look around you for a real time example.
Rather than everything being profit driven, I believe that it should be needs based – “to each according to their needs, from each according to their ability.” Common storehouse economics – that is, where people control in concert the means of production, distribution and exchange. Where people take what they want during abundance, and what they need during times of scarcity.
Equal access to wealth is NOT redistribution of wealth. Also, true equality recognizes diversity and that which is complimentary, it has nothing to do with forced conformity.
Does that help clarify what I previously wrote? I hope so – that is neither “greedy capitalism” nor is it “smothing socialism.” Touche! Now it is your turn.
May 1st, 2006 at 10:51 pm
“My ancestors were legal immigrants, but I don’t claim any special superiority of immigrants.”
You mean that your ancestors didn’t benefit from the Chinese Exclusion Acts, which made it possible for so many Europeans to come over without restrictions? Or they didn’t benefit from the restrictions on migration of American citizens who had the misfortune of being stuck in semi-slavery after ‘reconstruction’? I kinda doubt it, if your ancestors had to deal with competition without the benefits they had of massively and systemically illegal acts on their behalf…statistically speaking it woulda been a whole lot harder for them to compete.
“Legal” immigrants. Yeah, right, if they were legal, we’d be living in a country that was populated by easily 1/3rd to 1/2 Asians and whites would have ended up sharing far more of the New Deal with Blacks…, etc. What a joke though, to think of ancestors coming over here from Europe as ‘legal’ when the Chinese Exclusion Acts made a complete farce of the notion of ‘legal’ at the time.
May 2nd, 2006 at 4:00 am
Tammy Bruce was right.
Hamas (which means Americans in Mosques) marched side by side.
THAT means I am outta here altogether.
I live in CA. Give it to Mexico. I don’t care anymore.
Just get the Islamists out of the rest of the USA (which the Saudi-loving Bush family will not do); cut out the PC already; Israel has given MORE to the USA (no, not in money … in Intelligence and technology) and needs us no longer … in fact, they also are tired of our crap); and I will move somewhere else in the USA.
Tammy, tell me true and/or Marc, please tell me: is there ANYWHERE left in the USA where Jews can live?
A Jewess wrote those purty words on the base of the Statue of Liberty; a Jew wrote “God Bless America” … all of my Jewish ancestors JOINED the USA military and I am sick and tired of the KKK, WAR etc. as well as finding Jews to be the eternal scapegoat even in the USA.
So, again, where in the USA is a Jew’s and/or a Jewess’ best best?
GAWD, I can’t believe I just wrote this.
May 2nd, 2006 at 6:05 am
Elizabeth – you sound kinda nuts…
Get some help.
May 2nd, 2006 at 6:49 am
A deeper root of this entire problem of illegals swarming over our border from the South is the corruption of the ruling class causing the poverty conditions in Mexico. Until that is fixed, we face more of the same and will encourage it from all other countries where conditions are similar. Instead of the talk about ceding Texas or California back to Mexico, we need to do what I felt we should have years ago, that it, annex Mexico. That way we could have some chance of improving its economy. I’m not sure what kind of cozy relationship Bush and Fox have cooked up, but I believe we are now able to see where it is taking us. This is the danger of having corporations act as mini-states with their lobbyists playing Congress like a bunch of marionettes.
We don’t dislike illegals, we just don’t want them taking over our country. Even though our ‘leaders’ can’t or don’t know how to get our laws enforced.
from the United States of Coca Cola,
greg
May 2nd, 2006 at 8:47 am
Reg,
Sorry … you don’t get it and proably never will.
You need to get outta my country as well.
How about Canaduh for you?
Attempt (and what a poor attempt that was) to attack me in any way, shape or form and I will have the AMA and all its licensing boards come down on you like a ton of bricks.
Don’t even go there, ignorant piece of Canaduh, u r, reg.
May 2nd, 2006 at 8:48 am
““Legal†immigrants. Yeah, right, if they were legal, we’d be living in a country that was populated by easily 1/3rd to 1/2 Asians and whites would have ended up sharing far more of the New Deal with Blacks…, etc. What a joke though, to think of ancestors coming over here from Europe as ‘legal’ when the Chinese Exclusion Acts made a complete farce of the notion of ‘legal’ at the time.”
Yes well, folks did take certain liberties and supported economic slavery, but what they did wrong doesn’t negate everything else: the reason they want to come. Why don’t they WANT to stay home? I mean it’s their own kind? Because the cultures are corrupted tyrannical dictatorships. That part never changes.
May 2nd, 2006 at 9:20 am
Hey George and Elizabeth….you are relics.
Good luck in modern America!
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Thanks, NeoDude.
May 2nd, 2006 at 10:14 am
“Yes well, folks did take certain liberties and supported economic slavery, but what they did wrong doesn’t negate everything else:”
Took ‘some’ liberties? I didn’t know that today’s “illegals” had the benefit of systematic enforcement of illegal laws that benefit them vis a vis other newly arriving immigrant workers. No, our ancestors enjoyed the benefit of systematic breaking of laws of the US, today’s ‘illegals’ ain’t got nothing on them.
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