Breakthrough
Can’t remember the last time there was any good news from Congress. Finally, an exception.
As immigrant protests still rippled across the country Monday, a key Republican-dominated Senate panel has — against all odds– approved liberalized immigration reform. Racing against a deadline imposed by the Republican leadership, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted 12-6 to approve the broad outlines of what’s become known as the McCain-Kennedy comprehenisve immigration reform proposals. The measure, which will now go to the full Senate floor on Tuesday, creates a pathway for many of the country’s 12 million “illegals” to gain permanent residency (and eventual citizenship), and would allow an additional 400,000 migrant workers to legally enter the U.S. annually.
The Senate proposal also strikes down the measure passed in December by the House that would criminalize the undocumented as well as those, like religious and health workers, who aid them. While the bill approved today also calls for expansion of the Border Patrol and a tight program of employer verification, it nevertheless pits the Senate against a recalcitrant anti-immigration House.
Approval by the Senate committee came as four Republicans — Sam Brownback, Mike DeWine, Lindsay Graham and Chairman Arlen Specter — sided with Democrats.
The measure faces a fierce and uphill battle on the Senate floor. And an even tougher future if it makes it past the Senate when it would face reconciliation with the more draconian House version.
Monday’s vote, nevertheless, is a huge and welcome political victory for immigration reform advocates who have been working to bring national policies into line with some pretty stark realities. For the first time in 20 years, we see at least one house of congress inching out of the hypocrisy and denial that has characterized U.S. border and immigration policy.
The vote came as immigrant student protests continued to percolate in several cities from Los Angeles to Detroit and tens of thousands walked out of schools. The L.A. Unified School District alone reported at least 22,000 students had joined Monday’s walkouts. A smaller group of about 100 briefly blocked a Los Angeles freeway, waving Mexican, Guatemalan and Salvadoran flags. Monday’s protests were an aftershock to the history-making rally of half-million pro-immigrant demonstrators that occupied two dozen blocks of downtown Los Angeles.
It’s no less than stunning that Monday’s Senate Judiciary Committee vote came on the heels of these demonstrations. Some political analysts are predicting a xenophobic backlash to the immigrant mobilization. I’ve taken the opposite position, arguing that the immigrant protests are, in fact, a backlash against the Minuteman-ish ugly nativism that has crept into the political debate of the last couple of years.
Are we on the verge of some sort of new civil rights movement? That might be overstating things. There’s a natural ceiling on public sympathy for a foreign-born Spanish-speaking population that has decided to take to the streets. But how encouraging it is to see at least some rays of enlightenement shining through.
P.S. Here’s some great reporting in Tuesday’s L.A. Times, giving us the first behind-the-scenes glimpse of how Saturday’s rally of a half-million was conjured up. Turns out that the primary organizers were popular Spanish-language radio DeeJay’s. They urged the crowd to be tidy, peaceful and to wave American– not Mexican flags (which showed up anyway). The most significant institutional support for the march came from organized labor — namely the Service Employees International Union. So much for the cockeyed notion that these “illegal” immigrants are a nefarious counter-weight to unionization. Anyone with a lick of knowledge can tell you that over the past decade the only union growth has been among (mostly undocumented) immigrant service workers.
Also, see Daniel Hernandez’ eye-witness report from Saturday’s mega-demo in L.A. He also underlines the power of the Spanish-language media — unheard, unread and un-noticed by millions of non-Spanish speakers. There’s also this informative piece in the WashPo once again underscoring the role that Latino media and the Catholic Church played in the mobilization. Also, Korean radio. One out of five Koreans here are also illegals? Who knew?
March 27th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
I wouldn’t be so happy…yet. The final bill when it is passed (if passed) next year most likely will not be anything like what it is today.
Pols will not vote on anything that will keep them from getting the latino vote.
In fact if they were sure they would be elected they would pay the illegals $10.00 an hour while the rest of us get minimum wage.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
March 27th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
I thought this essay was useful, it gives a general overview of this issue:
Analysis of of the Immigration Problem
The world has gone through a revolution and it has changed a
lot. We have cut the death rates around the world with modern medicine
and new farming methods. For example, we sprayed to destroy mosquitoes
in Sri Lanka in the 1950s. In one year, the average life of everyone
in Sri Lanka was extended by eight years because the number of people
dying from malaria suddenly declined.
This was a great human achievement. But we cut the death rate
without cutting the birth rate. Now population is soaring. There were
about one billion people living in the world when the Statue of
Liberty was built. There are 4.5 billion today. World population is
growing at an enormous rate. The world is going to add a billion
people in the next eleven years, that’s 224,000 every day! Experts say
there will be at least 1.65 billion more people living in the world in
the next twenty years.
We must understand what these numbers mean for the U.S. Let’s
look at the question of jobs. The International Labor organization
projects a twenty-year increase of 600 to 700 million people who will
be seeking jobs. Eighty-eight percent of the world’s population growth
takes place in the Third World. More than a billion people today are
paid about 150 dollars a year, which is less than the average American
earns in a week. And growing numbers of these poorly paid Third World
citizens want to come to the United States.
In the 1970s, all other countries that accept immigrants
started controlling the number of people they would allow into their
countries. The United States did not. This means that the huge numbers
of immigrants who are turned down elsewhere will turn to the United
States. The number of immigrants is staggering. The human suffering
they represent is a nightmare. Latin America’s population is now 390
million people. It will be 800 million in the year 2025. Mexico’s
population has tripled since the Second World War. One third of the
population of Mexico is under ten years of age, as a result, in just
ten years, Mexico’s unemployment rate will increase 30 percent, as
these children become young adults, in search of work. There were in
1990 an estimated four million illegal aliens in the United States,
and about 55 percent of them were from Mexico.
These people look to the United States. Human population has
always moved, like waves, to fresh lands. But for the first time in
human history, there are no fresh lands, no new continents. We will
have to think and decide with great care what our policy should be
toward immigration. At this point in history, American immigration
policies are in a mess. Our borders are totally out of control. Our
border patrol arrests 3000 illegal immigrants per day, or 1.2 million
per year, and Two illegal immigrants get in for every one caught. And
those caught just try again!
More than 1 million people are entering the U.S. legally every
year. From 1983 through 1992, 8.7 million of these newcomers
arrived-the highest number in any 10-year period since 1910. A record
1.8 million were granted permanent residence in 1991. Because present
law stresses family unification, these arrivals can bring over their
spouses, sons and daughters: some 3.5 million are now in line to come
in. Once here, they can bring in their direct relatives. As a result,
there exists no visible limit to the number of legal entries.
Until a few years ago, immigrants seeking asylum were rare. In
1975, a total of 200 applications were received in the U.S. Suddenly,
asylum is the plea of choice in the U.S., and around the world, often
as a cover for economic migration. U.S. applications were up to
103,000 last year, and the backlog tops 300,000 cases. Under the
present asylum rules, practically anyone who declares that he or she
is fleeing political oppression has a good chance to enter the U.S.
Chinese are almost always admitted, for example, if they claim that
China’s birth-control policies have limited the number of children
they can have.
Right now, once aliens enter the U.S., it is almost impossible
to deport them, even if they have no valid documents. Thousands of
those who enter illegally request asylum only if they are caught. The
review process can take 10 years or more, and applicants often simply
disappear while it is under way. Asylum cases are piling up faster
than they can be cleared, with the Immigration and Naturalization
Service falling farther behind every year. At her confirmation
hearings at the end of September, Doris Meissner, Clinton’s nominee as
commissioner of the Immigration and Naturalization Services, conceded,
‘The asylum system is broken, and we need to fix it.’
Adding the numbers of legal and illegal immigrants, 50 percent
of all U.S. population growth comes from immigration. While Americans
try to have smaller families, immigration threatens our nation. If
immigration rates continue to be this high, more than seventy million
people will be added to the United States population in just fifty
years, with no end in sight. We are taking in more people than all of
the rest of the world combined. As have all the other countries of the
word, America needs to control its borders. As every house needs a
door, so every country needs a border. And yet, our borders are full
of holes. We have clearly lost control over our future. Our children
will pay the price of uncontrolled immigration.
The United States is no longer an empty continent. In 1886,
when the Statue of Liberty was built, there were 58 million people in
the United States. In 1984 there were 240 million people, that’s four
times the total population in less then a century The U.S. cannot and
should not be the home of last resort for all the world s poor,
huddled masses. We are not doing a good job with our own poor, as we
see more people without jobs.
Supporters of immigration use many arguments to support their
side. Let’s look at a few of these arguments: Illegal immigrants take
jobs no Americans want. The fact is that the average illegal immigrant
arrested in Denver, Colorado, made more than seven dollars an hour.
Many were making over 100 dollars per day. Denver identified 43
illegal aliens making 100 dollars per day as roofers, while 438 people
were registered in their employment services who would have loved
those jobs. The average illegal immigrant arrested in Chicago makes
$5.65 an hour. More than thirty million American workers make less
than that.
A common belief is that aliens fulfill many of the least
desirable jobs. However, most experts agree that in today’s economy,
there is no shortage of Americans competing for many of these same
jobs. Actually, many Americans already work in these low-paying jobs.
For example: the poor black woman, who works as a seamstress, Her boss
asked her to train a new employee, an illegal immigrant. As soon as
she finished training her new charge, she was fired. Her position, of
course, went to the illegal immigrant, who was willing to work for
less pay, and under deplorable working conditions. This is one example
of how illegal workers depress wages, and slow, stall or prevent
unionization or improvements to working conditions.
Another myth cited by supporters of immigration is that
illegal immigrants work hard, pay taxes, and do not go on welfare. The
sad truth is that these folks seem to learn the ropes of the welfare
system with incredible speed. Today’s illegal immigrants apply for and
receive benefits from the government that citizens need. According to
Donald L. Huddle, an economist at Rice University in Texas, legal and
illegal immigrants cost the nation a net 42.5 billion dollars in 1992.
The Huddle study also found that in 1992, more than 2 million
Americans were displaced from their jobs by illegal immigrants. This
resulted in an additional 11.9 billion dollars in public assistance.
In California alone, they cost more than 18 billion dollars a
year. California currently has an estimated 300,000 illegal immigrants
now attending grades’ 0-12. This will costs the California tax payers
an estimated 1.5 billion dollars. This is 10 percent of the students
currently enrolled in our elementary schools today! California has
49.8 percent of the countries illegal aliens, therefore, California
pays multiple costs for its leaky borders.
Providing health care for illegal immigrants costs California
tax payers 400 million dollars annually. Illegals drain about two
billion dollars a year for incarceration, schooling and Medicaid from
the budgets of such major destination states as Texas, Florida and
California. For California alone, a 1993 study by the California
Legislature estimates criminal justice costs involving illegal
immigrants to be 385 million dollars to the state, with an additional
112 million dollars to local or county government. This is a total
cost of 497 million dollars, paid by the California tax payer, each
and every year!
Illinois did a study showing that it paid 66 million dollars
in unemployment benefits to illegal immigrants in one year, despite a
law that was supposed to stop illegal immigrants from getting
unemployment benefits. Los Angeles estimates that it spends 269
million dollars in social services on illegal immigrants each year.
Every person added to our population drains our natural resources and
contributes to the destruction of our environment.
In a Pulitzer-Prize-winning study, the Des Moines Register
found that for every person added to our population, 1.5 acres of the
richest farm land goes out of production to make way for new houses,
roads, and shopping centers. If this continues, the United States will
stop shipping food to other countries shortly after the year 2000. How
can the United States feed the hungry people of the world?
The national majority now says it favors cutting back on legal
immigration. A TIME/CNN poll determined last week that 77 percent of
those surveyed felt the government was not doing enough to keep out
illegal immigrants. For years now, the battle has raged between the
federal authorities who are supposed to police the borders and the
states who pay the price if they fail.
In an attempt to reduce illegal immigration, Nevada Senator
Harry Reid, has introduced a bill that would establish an annual limit
of 300,000 newcomers, including ”immediate relatives,” and a
national identification card. Congress passed legislation in 1986 that
stipulates fines and other penalties for employers who knowingly hire
illegal aliens. The bill includes provisions to grant amnesty to
illegal aliens who were in the United States prior to January 1, 1982,
and to aid farmers who have relied on illegal aliens to harvest their
crops.
Does anyone benefit from the rising tide of illegal
immigration? Businesses that can profit from employing illegals at low
wages do. And many illegals are better off here than in their own
countries. But many others are exploited by dishonest employers and
are treated like slaves. These immigrants are denied the rights and
privileges we want every person in the United States to enjoy.
In closing, we must all realize this issue will not go away.
Other generations of Americans made great sacrifices so that we today
can enjoy the freedom, the quality of life, and the standard of living
that we have. When I think of what uncontrolled immigration will do to
the dreams of my parents and grandparents, what it will mean to the
future of my children, I realize that we will find a way to control
immigration. Because we must.
—
March 27th, 2006 at 7:20 pm
This not a breakthrough but rather a capitulation to, as it’s been describe, a practicality. The protestors are no better, pompous. They should all be round-up and deported…illegal or not. Hypocrisy? It was my impression it was a failure to enforce the law.
They’re all little versions of conquistadors. This country has slipped another notch. A big one!
March 27th, 2006 at 7:37 pm
Excellent Eleanore! Resources and space are finite. Humans are not and when a proliferation of this scope takes place something has to give. And it does. The environment erodes, quality of life declines, people die en masse, ecosytems crumble. No it is the source populations that must be addressed and controlled. The lifeboat cannot save them. Only they can.
March 27th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
if you want to deport someone, let’s start with yourself or rather your parents or grandparents who I’m pretty sure, were immigrants themselves. (Unless you’re a native american which I truly doubt) Just because they made it here couple of years before these times doesn’t give them any more right over those who came later. And that, my friend, is a hypocrisy you’ve mentioned.
These people here aren’t fellons; they have their families and most of them work harder than you could ever imagine. It is for best of us to have them all fingerprinted, make them pay taxes, include them into our society while enforcing our border control at the same time. That is the right American way.
Cheers
March 27th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
…Anti, you miss the very important distinction between immigrants, who aren’t felons, and people who sneak over the border in contravention to U.S. law. Unless you’re asserting an inalienable right to enter this country at will, laws be damned, and then to be declared citizens, you’ve conflated two issues that don’t belong together. A nation that has no control of its borders, and which instead throws them open to the world, is committing suicide. There is no more right to enter this country illegally and then be declared a citizen than I would have the right to enter Mexico under cover of night and declare myself a Mexican.
And that’s not even to begin to get into the human exploitation Mexican and Chinese and other workers are subjected to, and the spiriting away of jobs that used to belong to Americans. Americans won’t be busboys or meat packers or construction workers? Give me a break!
March 27th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
I wish someone would advocate I be incorporated into the country my family came to in 1635, but everyday I just get farther away, and closer to the poor house which, has never been that far away. My price started at $1 an hour back in the ’60s, rose to $21+ in the ’80s and now hovers at about $13.58 when I find it, an increasingly rare occurrance. This is not progressive folks. It’s the pits.
March 27th, 2006 at 8:37 pm
Somebody’s gonna have to restrain Lou Dobbs……
Remind me again why the GOP brought this up?…
March 27th, 2006 at 8:48 pm
Wow, the level of racism in several in these responses by people who call themselves Americans is as alarming as Eleanore’s “Facts” are alarm-ist.
Facts:
1. The highest wealth differential in the world betweem two bordering countries exists between the U.S. and Mexico: no wonder there is out-migration from Mexico (and Latin America)!
2. Without legal rights, Mexican workers are subjected to fear, intimidation, exploitation of the worst kind; they exist as a slave class in this country. Is that what you advocate? In spewing hatred and alarmism towards the poorest workers in this country you are both selfish and cruel in turning a blind eye to immense exploitation of workers and human rights violations.
3. If you were really worried about a supposed overpopulation threat, then you would advocate for policies that would reduce the wealth disparity between the U.S. and Mexico: join the movements against U.S. corporte globalization and neoliberal policies abroad, and support overseas development aid that offers people, specifically women, in developing countries education and jobs (female education is the primary factor reducing birthrates, as development studies show).
3. …But I suspect that what you are really worried about is the “wrong” races, (ie. brown and black peoples) in your midst. Perhaps, then, ask yourselves whether these people willingely choose to uproot their lives and families, leave their beautiful land, cultures, and termperate climates to live in hiding here and endure brutal working conditions alongside a hostile, spoiled, ignorant peoples who pass laws that render them and its own poor, the salt of the earth, felons for scraping a meager living for themselves and their children. Hmmmmm…
4. It’s survival, stupid: current U.S. economic policies, past landgrabs from Mexico, wars, and European (and now American neoliberal) colonialism have impoverished Latin America. As a friend of mine from Mexico said, “we’d rather work like dogs in the U.S. and get paid a few dollars than work like dogs in Mexico and get paid nothing at all.”
5. Broad social change, as the protesters are saying, is needed. What can we do to improve people’s life chances and job security–in North, Central, and South America? How can we secure the human and labor rights of all workers, which would in fact keep the minumum wage from dropping for ALL workers in this country?
Think big, see the issues clearly, adn please stop spewing racist, fear-mongering bile. Help me to remember why I liked being an American.
JB
March 27th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
I hear what Eleanor and JR said, but still, I support anti. You’ve outlined all the negative connotations these so-called illegals’ bring to our contry, but what about the positives. It’s true that they are the hub of our agricultural system and other sectors (housing). Take all 11 million and throw them out, and you’ll be buying oranges at $2 per piece. Or buying a 1 bedroom townhouse in Boonies, Alabama for $400,000. And don’t tell me you’ll find americans to replace those jobs because the fact is that, you won’t. First there are too many of these ‘low grade’ jobs available, and the business sector knows this, that is why they support this new bill. Second, a typical american would not accept the pay these workers earn. An american would also demand benefits. A lot of these people don’t ask for that. They’re just glad to be receiving a paycheck. I mean there are too many sectors to mention. Think housekeeping, office cleaning, most restaurant behind-the-scenes work, landscaping, etc. The reality of this situation is that whether you legalize them or not, they’re gonna be here. They’ve been here for over 10 years now many of them. Pretending that they don’t exist or not finding a way to legalize them will not solve anything. Whether it is done or not, they will stay here. They have lives and family here already. Also, it is not realistic to say all 11 million should be deported/leave the country. First of all I think that even sounds foolish. We don’t have the resources to ‘force’ such a large number of people out. How?? So in the end, they stay. The best idea is, since they’re already here to stay either way, just register them, do background checks, let them pay a penalty of $2000 and taxes. That’s a total of 22 billion dollars alone in penalty fees (more than the budget of the INS!). Then any back taxes would mean more money. And future tax payments, even more money. Then we can also secure our borders so that entering illegally is not encouraged in the future. So I support that the ones already here be allowed to stay. Not amnesty, just registered and legalized. It only makes sense. People keep making it sound like doomsday – a drone of 11 million people will suddenly tax our health care systems, school, etc. For goodness sakes the 11 million are already here in our systems already!
March 27th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
Its a very difficult task to fix the inmmigration problem, but all this are consecuences of bad choices on past goverments, I dont know at what point they sold the Nation to corporations, even if there are no inmmigrants most of the labor and manufacture will be donne overseas. And the goverment won’t take action, cause there are interest from corporations and they can air there voice and interest with contributions. And about Americans being bussboys, construction workers or taking care of the elderly, Im sure they can but an inmmigrant is more efficient than the average American worker, even if they have the same pay and benefits if any.
The American worker got spoiled, cause there is always somebody who can do the dirty job, but you know…all we have are dirty jobs now cause the good ones are subcontracted over seas or need they need a qualified person and the average American dont take the time to prepare at school as they should.
I think ilegal inmmigrat in order to get legal status should prove that he can incorporate himself to this society, speak the languaje and pay taxes and dues. Check backgroud and police records too.
March 27th, 2006 at 8:53 pm
I have seen very deep thoughts about immigration from both sides.
I understand those worries, yes. I am an Immigrant and I am aware that this is not my country home. I clearly understand why American citizens are so worry about this situation because I do care about America too.
It is so easy to fall in love with America, and I am not talking only about freedom but also about security, about the possibility to have dreams and work for them, perhaps to have them fulfilled.
In Latin America and many other countries, so many times we are so worried about how to feed our children, and we don’t think about Nasdaq or Wallstreet.
We are so worried about thinking if we are going to return today from work (if you are lucky enough to have one) that we don’t care about shopping malls.
We are here now, for first time probably we can go anywhere without thinking if you would be able to go back home.
For first time in my life I don’t care if I will be able to feed my child, rather than that I can think about a good after-school activity for her (my little pricess).
For first time in my life I can live with dignity in a wellcoming country, with my hands and my heart ready to serve … to Americans and the entire world that live here.
So. I understand your worries and believe it or not I don’t blame you if you don’t want me here, neither if you don’t understand my reasons, but what you need to believe is that I ‘ll do my best for this country, because I have the pasion and the dreams, and that will be my proud and I am sure that it will give me the strenght to defeat your hate.
Now let be less romantic.
The house of many Americans … people complain about the high cost in Real State, well, do you want to add more if those houses were made for doubled paid workers?
Do you really think (if you are naive enough) that this economy would do well with the HOLE left by MORE than 12 million humans.
Have you think in the consecuences for this great country if we would face a massive deportation (not to think in the cost of that).
Do you think that the moneyworshipers (not few in politics and in society) would be happy to pay a lot more for goods like houses.
A lot of companies are going elsewhere right now, and guess why, looking for cheaper labor force. Do you want to add more. I mean, do you want to make this country less attractive to the big American companies?
Well, do you see it? it’s not simple, it’s not easy, but we all together (Americans Citizens, Residents, Temporary workers and Undocumented workers), with rational solutions can find the way to keep this country as great as it is and why not make it better.
God bless America … and every body in there!
March 27th, 2006 at 8:54 pm
What do you mean by “a natural ceiling on public sympathy”? Despite the fact that the majority of USeans are for the most part ignorant of the realities faced by many who immigrate here today (facing draconian policies initiated by our own US government – can we say NAFTA?) , I still think that we should refrain from making an assumption that if one is Spanish-speaking and from another country, that most people who had the luck to be born here and to not have to face some of these impoverished realities would not have a compassionate understanding that would have no limit. Let’s try to have some faith.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:11 pm
Not all 11 million undocumented in the US are ‘mexican’. Obviously, majority are, but not all. For instance, I, arrived here as a foreign student, but after completing 4 years of study PLUS a masters degree, could not find an employer to sponsor me for a work visa, so I just continued working illegally. Yes, its sad. How many americans even have a masters degree? A lot of my friends resorted to ‘green card marriages’ (fake marriages of convenience just to get a green card), but I decided not to enter into such. Hey I figured I could ‘hack’ being illegal until something such as this new bill came along, or something better (maybe fall in love with an american, heck i dunno). I mean as long as I don’t committ a crime or leave the country, I’m cool, just keeping my head down here. It’s really sad that a great so-called superpower like America has not addressed this issue even though the country itself was founded on immigration. I mean look at countries like the United Kingdom and Canada. They have more progressive policies. Students there are automatically given work permits after their study, and then from there, put on a pipeline to permanent residence because of their education and experience. Even though they’re smaller, they control the flow of immigrants into their country, but they also address what happens to the immigrants within. And they even have socialized health-care systems – imagine! The US does not leave many options other than green card lottery and family-based immigration. Tighter immigration laws are hurting America, saying the new restrictions aren’t worth it even if they stop the “one out of a zillion [foreigners] who might have a bomb.”
It has also led to a drop in many places of the number of foreign students coming to the United States to study and be graduate students. The U.S. needed foreign students because we are nowhere near graduating enough scientists and engineers to maintain, given the size of our economy, a leadership role in the global economy.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
Joseph: In fact only about half the illegal worker population is Mexican. Maybe another 10-15% are otehr Latinos.
Of course you touch on an issue we havent even gotten into here… the sorry state of HB1 visas for professionals. We are starving ourselves of the cream of global talen by antiquated and ossified policies.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
Thanks Marc. I’m really crossing my fingers that this thing goes through. It would really help a lot of people like me that haven’t visited my home country in years for fear of no way of coming back in. I’m thinking the bill might be killed this year because its re-election year for congress and they’re scared of not getting re-elected by supporting this. But then later, like next year, when they’ve been re-elected to office, they might bring it up again and pass it before Bush leaves office, because I know he really wants to get something passed before leaving office.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
Nations are like ships. If you let too many people on at once, it will sink.
Until 1965 there had always been immigration quotas. You had to wait your turn and prove how you would contribute to American society. I know this because my parents are immigrants and in 1963, they had waited for two years (and that was lucky!), paid the required fees and proved they had a job to go to once inside the country. They immediately became citizens, learned how to speak english and assimilated into American society. My sister had no ESL classes and simply learned English through immersion. My mother learned it from Sesame Street and I Love Lucy reruns. But that does not mean that any of our heritage has ever been forgotten. Then in the 90s, my father, who had worked as a machinist and tool designer (mostly for the aerospace industry) for 30 years, was forced into early retirement because of the influx of younger and cheaper (although not as experienced) and sometimes illegal workers.
So please don’t tell me that illegal immigrants are only taking jobs that Americans don’t want. I had many friends growing up here that had immigrant parents. The difference with them is that they all waited their turn and with the intent of becoming an American and doing what it took to do so. Why should those today suddenly be given such preferential treatment?
It reminds me of the old Aesop’s fable of the hen that asks for help in baking her bread. All refused to help her, but all wanted a piece of the bread once it had been freshly baked.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
Lydia,
I hear what you’re saying, but you have to be objective. This ‘turn’ you are talking about in reality no longer exists! Now the only ways to come in are family-based, lottery, or employer based. And the employer-based criteria involves more than just providing you have a job inside the country. Oh, heck no. When its almost impossible to get an employer-sponsored visa for educated people INSIDE the country, talkless of those outside. Evenso, there a strict limits on how many are issued. So the laws have really changed and become stringent since your ancestors moved here. Turn waiting is hardly an option except for the things i just mentioned. Its not as easy as you say, trust me I know cos I’m a non-resident alien. If it was really a matter of waiting 2 (or even 5) years, paying a fee, and proving you had a job and the necessary english proficiency, then where do I sign up????? My dear, things have really changed!!! I’m not supporting illegal entry, but I’m just trying to show you that those who came ealier were more priviledged because the laws were very lax back then as to who can come, how, when, etc. And in most cases (like you said), those immigrants were automatically put on a pathway to american citizenship. Today, its considered ‘gold’ to even be put on a pathway to permanent residence (not even citizenship) by such standards.
Also, I never said that the illegal immigrants are only taking jobs Americans don’t want. I said for the most part they are. But just cos your dad lost his job does not mean that happened across the board/in the majority of cases. In most cases, illegal immigrants do not have the skills to take over such positions. Not to sound harsh, but, please don’t allow your personal and emotional sentiment from your father’s experience support an excuse to generalize negatively about illegal aliens.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
You think Immigrant Reform wont effect you?
You’re Wrong!
Immigrants are a huge part of this county, and forcing them to leave is going to have a serious backlash on all US Citizens.
No, I’m not just talking about all of the employers that will be forced to close their business because they no longer have enough employee’s, nor am I talking about the lack of workers to fill the undesirable positions that many Latinos currently fill.
I am talking about the overwhelming number of people, such as myself, that will be forced to apply for government assistance, because their spouse has been deported from this country.
Hi, I’m Jodi… I AM an American Citizen, my parents, and their parents are from the United States… I can proudly trace my heritage back to my Native American Ancestors.
My husband of 5 years, is Mexican. He has been here illegally for over 10 years.
He currently supports our family of 7, which consists of myself, 5 children, and my husband.
Out of those 5 children, only 2 are his. The other 3 are from a previous marriage.
ALL 5 kids are American Born Citizens.
If my husband is deported, I will be FORCED to apply for government assistance, because I can not afford to work and pay childcare for my children.
Sadly, this is the case for millions of other families, where either 1 parent, or the children are US Citizens, and the other parent is illegal.
Are you willing to have your taxes increased to cover the overwhelming cost that will be created when all of these families are forced to seek financial and medical assistance, because one or both of the parents have been deported?
Most immigrants are here working, they pay taxes for things they can’t even touch. I know my husband pays Federal & State taxes, along with Social Security and Medicare, something he can not utilize.
Our government chooses to see a side of this that benefits them, we need to show them just how wrong they are.
Please make a stand to help families like mine, along with millions of others, by calling your senators.
Tell them you SUPPORT reform that will provide legalization, protecting the rights of Workers, and most importantly, keeping families united.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
Mahr, you stated you think that all illegal immigrants should have to go through backround checks to become legal residents.
That is part of the big problem now… do you realize that among the 11million (or more!) illegal’s that are currently inside the US, we have NO information about them whatsoever?
Because they are here illegally, we have no way to prove who they are… we have no birth certificates, no fingerprints, nothing.
If we were to pass legalization, at the very least, we would know who it is we are dealing with.
Aliens would have to go through the backround checks, and fingerprinting INS requires.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
Jodi, your husband of 5 years should have a green card by virtue of his marriage to you, an american citizen. In fact, he should be an american citizen by now. Why do you say he has been here illegally for 10 years. Is he still illegal. Why?
March 27th, 2006 at 10:07 pm
to JR:
sorry JR but to me an immigrant is an immigrant, not a fellon as such, and by the way – it never will be. We can sub divide them into “legal” or “illegal” categories if you will but just by declaring them “felons” will solve absolutely nothing. I’m not sure if you’re aware of it but every felony trial requires jury. If for nothing else, imagine the mess it’s gonna create in our legal system.
Sure you can cross a line in your folder of things “done” and pretend that all those 11 million people just disappeared and that we can start with clean slate now but if you truly truly a bit realistic you will agree that compromise is necessary – compromise that will show these ppl that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And that tunnel is 11 years away. In other words nobody’s giving them flat-out citizenship or flat-out amnesty.
They would first have to keep their jobs for 6 years, then wait for the green card and after additional 5 years they could apply for the citizenship. I think you should address your concern about sneaking over the border specificaly to the Border Patrol agency and its impotency in apprehending “illegals” but not by criminalizing them. Or perhaps you should question INS why does it take for someone who happens to have a sister, say in Phillipiness, for her brother to process her paperwork in roughly 20 years!!!!!! In XXI. century where in a split of a second you can obtain any info you need almost right away.
Dear JR, in light of these facts I’m not surprised there is about 11 million undocumented ppl living in the shadows.
Finally if you happened to read the bill proposed in the Senate it actually also deals with increased border security – nobody’s suggesting to have open borders here, on the contrary. But again also we have to find a way how to deal with the people who are already here: let them be the last in the pipeline for the green cards if you must, let them pay taxes, get their fingerprints, let them learn English, let them learn our values and you will see that in the end it will benefit us all – and guess what, they will come to appreciate it perhaps more than you might know….
you miss the very important distinction between immigrants, who aren’t felons, and people who sneak over the border in contravention to U.S. law
. Unless you’re asserting an inalienable right to enter this country at will, laws be damned, and then to be declared citizens, you’ve conflated two issues that don’t belong together. A nation that has no control of its borders, and which instead throws them open to the world, is committing suicide.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
Let’s think about these few facts:
All illegal immigrants who work in the USA use ‘fake documents’. Fake social security numbers; fake immigration documents…but just think of this: They are still paying taxes!! Yes, every paycheck comes after taxes! IRS deducts the stipulated amount from their paychecks.
The interesting component is this…at the end of the year…people using fake social security are not going to claim a income tax return (of course not!! they can’t!)..so..where is all that money that is not returned at the end of fiscal year?
Good question…ask IRS and the government offices involved.
May be the illegal immigration should remain, much of the ‘revenue’ for many government offices comes from the illegal immigration.
In the other hand, LEGAL documented immigrants pays an estimate of $200.00 in order to renew their working permit…make the numbers…let’s think of 20 million people paying $200.00 a year…oh my gosh!!! It’s is a significant revenue for some office somewhere don’t you think?
Make your numbers; apply logical and critical analysis…we may need immigrants after all!! (legal and illegal), they both are a wonderful source of income for our nation!!!!
March 27th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
to JR:
sorry JR but to me an immigrant is an immigrant, not a fellon as such, and by the way – it never will be. We can sub divide them into “legal” or “illegal” categories if you will but just by declaring them “felons” will solve absolutely nothing. I’m not sure if you’re aware of it but every felony trial requires jury. If for nothing else, imagine the mess it’s gonna create in our legal system.
Sure you can cross a line in your folder of things “done” and pretend that all those 11 million people just disappeared and that we can start with clean slate now but if you truly truly a bit realistic you will agree that compromise is necessary – compromise that will show these ppl that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And that tunnel is 11 years away. In other words nobody’s giving them flat-out citizenship or flat-out amnesty.
They would first have to keep their jobs for 6 years, then wait for the green card and after additional 5 years they could apply for the citizenship. I think you should address your concern about sneaking over the border specificaly to the Border Patrol agency and its impotency in apprehending “illegals” but not by criminalizing them. Or perhaps you should question INS why does it take for someone who happens to have a sister, say in Phillipiness, for her brother to process her paperwork in roughly 20 years!!!!!! In XXI. century where in a split of a second you can obtain any info you need almost right away.
Dear JR, in light of these facts I’m not surprised there is about 11 million undocumented ppl living in the shadows.
Finally if you happened to read the bill proposed in the Senate it actually also deals with increased border security – nobody’s suggesting to have open borders here, on the contrary. But again also we have to find a way how to deal with the people who are already here: let them be the last in the pipeline for the green cards if you must, let them pay taxes, get their fingerprints, let them learn English, let them learn our values and you will see that in the end it will benefit us all – and guess what, they will come to appreciate it perhaps more than you might know….
March 27th, 2006 at 10:14 pm
“But I suspect that what you are really worried about is the “wrong†races, (ie. brown and black peoples) in your midst.”
Yeah that explains why African-Americans have even more negative attitudes toward illegal immigration than white people…
March 27th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
Joseph,
We were told the only way my husband can become a legal citizen is to leave the US for a minimum of 1 year, maximum of 10 years before he can become a legalized.
By that time, we had already been together a year, and he was supporting my 3 children, and myself… it wasn’t a option for us to have him leave.
We have talked to numerous attorney’s, as well as many other people in the same situation, and we are always told the same thing.
Wait, wait and wait some more… unless there are some changes in immigration laws, then my husband will remain a illegal immigrant, with no rights.
I live with a daily fear that my husband can be deported, and my children will ultimately have to pay the price.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:47 pm
Lydia says: “… The difference with them is that they all waited their turn and with the intent of becoming an American and doing what it took to do so. Why should those today suddenly be given such preferential treatment?
And what if you are in a binational same-sex relationship with an american citizen? And there is no provision on the Immigration and Naturalization Act to allow a citizen to sponsor his same-sex partner? That the immigration treats you as a second class citizen just before you’re gay? What if you have a foreign same-sex partner for over 10 years who had to overstay his visa because that was the only way you 2 could be together? Married couples can sponsor someone they met yesterday and married today. Same-sex relationships of over 10 years mean nothing under immigration laws.
What if your same-sex partner who’s been here illegally for over 10 years has a 5-year BS degree and could have been earning over $100K/ year and paying income tax on that amount for the last 10 years, instead of having to work as self-employed and making 1/10th of that amount on jobs not-related to his degree(although still paying income taxes).?
Should your same-sex partner be deported after being in a loving and caring relationship with you for over a decade? Would it be a “preferential treatment” (like Lydia said) if your partner is allowed, finally, to obtain legal status? There’s no “waiting their turn” for same-sex binational same-sex couples.
So, as you can see, the law is not fair and doesn’t treat everyone equally. Also, not all illegal immigrants are Mexican border crossers. And not all illegal immigrants are uneducated.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:52 pm
Israel, not all immigrants use Fake Social Security Cards (although, the majority do, since you can buy a SSN & ID on most corners in major cities)
My husband uses a ITIN (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number) to pay in all his taxes.
This number is issued by the IRS to collect all the tax monies from immigrants here illegally.
*********************************
Immigration issues are not as black and white as they seem.
There are so many complex issues that no one is touching…
For instance, has anyone even stopped to consider where all the children, who ARE American Citizens are going to be placed when their parents are deported?
Who is going to ultimately pay the price for all the Foster Care that is going to be dished out?
Because, even though the parents might be illegal, the children aren’t… they have as many rights as any US Citizen.
Or like I said in my post earlier, all the families like mine that will be forced to flood the welfare office for assistance, because 1 or more spouse/parent has been removed from the home.
I do see both sides of the issue, but mass deportation is not the answer.
The best thing to do at this point is to offer another Amnesty, putting a high fee on all applications. (The last Amnesty collect a fee of $1,000.00 per person, grossing more than $1million dollars!)
I would start with a minimum of $2,000., and honestly, double that for their “application fee”.
Fee to be paid in full by the time they receive their legal permanent residency card.
All profits from the money collected from the Amnesty should then in turn be used to stregthen our borders, and add to our border patrol.
Unless the problem is taken care of at the root, it will continue to happen.
March 27th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
“I’m just trying to show you that those who came ealier were more priviledged because the laws were very lax back then as to who can come, how, when, etc”
Joseph, if the laws were so lax back then, then why were there such fewer immigrants allowed in then and so many more immigrants today? Shouldn’t that be the other way around then? There was also a strict limit to how many of my father’s nationality could come in at the time as well. In fact, he would not have been let in at all had it not been for my mother’s nationality.
Also, I’m not talking about just Mexican immigrants either. I know of someone from another country who’s been on a work visa for years working in the film industry. He works in special-effects. I’m a little annoyed that our government hands that out when there’s tons of people here that would love to fill that job. Also, he has no intention of becoming a citizen. That’s the piece of “freshly-baked bread” I’m talking about without having to go through what all others previously had to go through.
It’s clear that you are not the type of person that should be label a felon. It sounds like you have gone through whatever channels are available to you currently. But I am curious as to what the exact obstacles are to your becoming a citizen. Help me to understand what has changed that prevents you from applying for citizenship.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:00 am
Borders are articifial……migration is natural….it’s essential……it’s global….read Robert D. Kaplan’s The Coming Anarchy…spread the wealth……or lose it.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:05 am
[...] By approving the measure 12-6, the Republican-controlled Senate panel demonstrates a the shake-up on the right, in which the president, who had originally skewed the party far from the center, now is surrounded by GOP members to his right and left. In regards to historical immigration reform, this is a positive twist, pending its impact on the House-passed Sensenbrenner bill. IJJ Border Justice Senior Fellow Marc Cooper describes it as: …A huge and welcome political victory for immigration reform advocates who have been working to bring national policies into line with some pretty stark realities. For the first time in 20 years, we see at least one house of congress inching out of the hypocrisy and denial that has characterized U.S. border and immigration policy. [...]
March 28th, 2006 at 12:12 am
This is not going to stop. The racist convinced the Media and public debate that we needed to punish immigrants and now the sleeping giant is wide awake. Rallies planned all over the nation. The left is going to get a working poor movement for civil rights. Will it support it or not. Better not. This movement is its own thing.
March 28th, 2006 at 3:27 am
the land of the free,the home of the brave!!
it is very important nowadays specially in the US to include immigrant in the society and not exclude them or make them outcasts!!!
We are not criminals,we would like to participate and play by the rule…We all pay taxes and contribute to live the American dream and not to hide in the shadow!!!
Live and let live…do not penalize me…legalize me!!
Keep in mind that not only Hispanics are concerned here , we have people from every Corner of the Globe living in these situation for years and years. Please Let Us Believe.
March 28th, 2006 at 6:26 am
“Borders are articifial……migration is natural….it’s essential……it’s global”
“spread the wealth……or lose it.”
This exactly what I have always wanted to say. It is so wonderful that you have said it in so few words.
March 28th, 2006 at 6:29 am
Which part of ‘illegal’ do you not understand?
If you have immigrated here legally, then you have rights.
If you are here ILLEGALLY, you should not be here nor be able to benefit from this great country. You are cheating all those that immigrated here LEGALLY.
March 28th, 2006 at 7:46 am
Eleanore kjellberg,
Thank you for posting the article here. It does provide a lot of helpful information. But I need to point out that the debate will not end there. There are many points made in this article that sounds valid given the data and analysis provided in the article. But things can always be looked at in different perspectives. And that is where this article fails.
Since there are so many points being made in this article, I can not address each one of them. I can only address the most important point in this article as I see it. It basically says that America is filling up and can not take in much more people. Therefore illegal immigration has to stop. I agree that space is limited even in America. But there is a way for allowing unlimited number of people to come in even if there is limited space. Just look at New York City. New York City’s land is limited. Yet, people are coming from all over America without any restriction year after year. How can New York City handle it? It is building more buildings, but not at a very high speed. Most New Yorkers live in old buildings. The secret is that as many people move to the city, many move out as well. They move back to where they come from, or move to another place. A lot of native New Yorkers move to other states. Everybody seems to be OK with that. Can the US government design an immigration system that would allow people from other countries come and go as they like? Let them stay as long as they can afford the rent. But if they are caught living on the streets they will be deported. I do not see any harm in doing this.
Another issue I want to talk about is there have been conflicting opinions about the wages illegal immigrants earn. Some who are against illegal immigration say they bring down the wages. But this article is saying that they make more money than some Americans and some Americans would love to take those jobs at those wages. I guess they bring down wages in some cases and take jobs that Americans want in some other cases. Either way, they are threatening Americans’ job security. I have to admit that it not a pleasant thing to have to compete with other people for jobs. But from employers and consumers’ perspective, they want the best employees and the best services they can find. That is how businesses can survive. That is also how a place can be better place to live than another place. American workers should think of what they can do for America to make it a better place to live and take up the challenge from people from other countries. If you are better, you will not loose your jobs.
March 28th, 2006 at 7:48 am
The problem with this debate is the ultereor motives of the partisans on both sides. The Minutemen/Tancredo claims they are not opposed to legal immigration, but refuse to consider expanding the H2-B program or any other legal avenues for brown-skinned people. The Wall Street Journal editorial page/La Raza crowds token words on border security is also transparently insincere: they want open borders, low wages and more power for The Race, never mind the effect this has on CURRENT Americans and CURRENT immigrants struggling to have a decent life here.
The other irony though is that in spite of the phoniness of these aspects of their rhetoric, both sides ALSO make valid points. And the best solution involves not a watered down compromise between the two poles, but a fusing of them. That is to say, take the McCain-Kennedy bill, and add to it the provisions in the House Republicans bill dealing with border enforcement and workplace enforcement.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:02 am
june, Jane Lu — “Borders are articifial”
Name me one other country, now or at any other time and place in history, that has adopted this view.
I believe that the answer is “none”. Given this, my next question: why should we be the first? How is it in OUR interest (by OUR, meaning CURRENT Americans and immigrants)
A country without a border, a country that doesn’t treat its citizens and legal residents DIFFERENTLY than it treats non-residents, IS NOT A COUNTRY.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:07 am
“He currently supports our family of 7, which consists of myself, 5 children, and my husband.
Out of those 5 children, only 2 are his. The other 3 are from a previous marriage.
ALL 5 kids are American Born Citizens.”
As a family of one I question his ability to do this. On what? From what? Why so many children from all over the place with different wives? This is irresponsible on its face. We don’t need more overpopulators.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:12 am
I won’t try to address all the issues, but I’ll try to touch on a couple of points.
First, to me there is a difference between an immigrant here legally and one here illegally, just as there is between a guest I invite into my house and a stranger that climbs through the window.
Second, while there was a “land grab” from Mexico in the 1800′s — several in fact — a country is the people inhabiting it and the values they share more than the land they live on. The people now living in the Southwestern United States are better of (in my opinion) than they would have been under Mexican rule. Of course, Mexico *would* have been better off (they’d have had more oil, for one thing), but I do not believe it would have come close to making up the difference for the people in Texas and California.
Finally, it has got to be one of the stupidest things *ever* to wave Mexican flags at an event trying to influence American public opinion. Non-hispanic Americans who might be willing to listen are more likely to see this as a nationalistic (as in Aztlán) demonstration than an American one. If I were trying to influence Canadian public opinion, I wouldn’t gather half a million of my closest friends and wave the Stars and Stripes. Granted, the DJ’s tried to stress the importance of symbols, but far too many were too (for lack of a better word) ignorant to take the advice. You can bet Tom Tancredo will have some shots of this demonstration when he tries to implement his agenda.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:22 am
Mark A. York,
Since I am the one overpopulating, maybe you should just deport me?
If you will go back and READ what I wrote, I specifically said that I had 3 children from a previous marriage, and ONLY 2 of the 5 children are my husband’s.
You just ASSumed because my husband was Mexican, he was the one overpopulating… but in truth it was me.
It’s the Mexican that is supporting them by working his butt off in a job that pays little to see we are all supported. We don’t require a check from the government, but if he is deported, you can bet your bottom dollar millions like me WILL be applying, because we have no other choice.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:28 am
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
- Does anyone know the meaning of this??
March 28th, 2006 at 8:30 am
I totally agree with Jodi.
I am also married to an “illegal immigrant”, we have two boys together and I have one from a previous marriage. My husband is the most hardest worker I know. I am proud to be married to him. Although my husband is illegal, we own two houses in the United States and he pays the taxes on both of the propertys.
We too are going to have to wait and see how long his application for residence is going to take and how long the government is going to have to punish him to stay in Mexico. I was told that his punishment for crossing illegally can be up to 10 Years. If this was to happen, me and my children would have to go with him or like Jodi said apply for assistance from the government. Although I have a job in a government office (District Attorneys Office) I would not be able to pay mortgage notes and taxes without my husband.
I was born and raised in the United States my father is 1/3 Cherokee Indian and my Grandmother was 1/2. I grew with hispanic people and love there culture. Like JB said Hispanic people would rather be in there own countrys, but sometimes people have to do what they think is best for there families.
I personally know hundreds of illegal immigrants from Mexico and they all say they would rather be in Mexico, then have to live in hiding and in contstant fear of being deported, but they have no choice.
I had a neice who was also married to and “illegal immigrant” they had 5 beautiful children together and one that was hers by a diffrent marriage. Two years ago my neice past away and her husband has been taken care of all of the children including the one that isn’t his. My neice past away before they had time to finish the paperwork to get her husbands papers. He finished applying, but know they are talking about deporting him. I really feel bad for him and my great neices and nephew. If this is to happen he will have to take the children to Mexico with him, the children don’t even know spanish and will be a great change for them. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can help him. The children have a right to be here and he is there father and loves them.
Something needs to be done. Just like Jodi said alot of people will have to go to welfare if this is to happen.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:43 am
I wonder if job competition is such a bad thing (in a Macroeconomic sense). African Americans heading north, women joining the workforce, and previous large immigration waves have all made the job market more competitive. I wonder if this increased competition is part of what’s made America so productive in the last hundred years. Perhaps it put pressure on workers to get educated. Just thinking aloud.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:58 am
“So much for the cockeyed notion that these “illegal” immigrants are a nefarious counter-weight to unionization.”
Marc – you’re really grabbing stuff out of your ass in this discussion. Do you really believe that illegal immigration doesn’t depress wages, nor that illegal immigrants haven’t been a boon to industries – meatpacking, construction and agriculture come first to mind – that have managed to weaken and/or destroy unionized labor over the past several decades. That service unions are beginning to pick up some of the slack doesn’t change the rather stark reality. I find a lot of what you’ve written in these last two posts dishonest and insulting to the intelligence of anyone who’s not simply echoing your angle – and it is an “angle” – on the issue.
Not that you’re full of it, per se. Just that you’ve let yourself be overcome by events.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:11 am
JB,
Excellent comments, right on the head. I could not have stated it better. I have been making the same argument about the wealth disparity between the north and the south on here for weeks. However, JB, unlike me (you have obviously studied this issue more than I), you have outlined better than I some very specific solutions to this long-time but worsening problem. And like you and Marc, Jody, and Mary; I am dismayed at the subtle (and not so subtle) bigotry coming out of this.
And a “thank you” as well to you, Marc, for some on-target work here.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:13 am
What, no Bill Bradley? Maybe la migra busted him back to his aryan nation. You can never be sure who doesn’t have their papers in this country.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:17 am
No, I haven’t had time to read all the comments, but I’ll make a statement, anyway.
The only REAL reason that supporters want citizenship for 12,000,000 illegal aliens is because they are confident that they can buy their loyalty to become good union members and Democratic voters. Other reasons, for the most part, are a smokescreen to avoid the truth.
Naturally, 12,000,000 illegal immigrants would make both good union members and Democrats, as exhibited by their first act as they entered the U.S.–breaking the law.
We don’t need more hyphenated-Americans as citizens and voters, especially when they are simply here for the money, do not understand our nation’s founding and our systems, do not want to share our language and culture, and who ignore our laws. But, of course, you may want this for your own selfish reasons and agenda–and, you would be wrong, too.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:22 am
I sorry so many people out there are so closed minded as i read here. My family was some of the first immigrants to settle here and my family has paid the price in blood for others to have that same freeedom. If someone takes a job for min wage to clean the bathrooms or work in microsoft if they get the position bully for them.
Most of you never venture outside of your tvs to see the real world. Never been to another country to see a family fighting to live or a child die from no food. I feel shame to be called a american becuase of you act like we as Americans are better no i say we are just more fortunate than they are and i hope we will never be a nation closed minded ingrates that i read here.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:25 am
There presently is NO LEGAL WAY for the majority of people to enter this country legally. THERE IS NO LINE! People keep saying that they should get in line but there is not one. If you do not come from England, Canada or another rich country….THERE IS NO LINE. I wish that the media would mention this.
If you are from a poor country and are not rich, the only option available to you to immigrate to the US is the Visa Lottery. This is a random system where the INS selects from a list of hundreds of millions of applicants and selects a few for a green card. You have a better chance of winning a million dollars in the state lottery.
These people are not Felons. The presently law lists undocumented presence as a Civil Infraction. If we listen to some on this board and in the media, all people with civil infractions such as speeding tickets and so on should be required to pay for them for the rest of their lives… anything else would be amnesty. If congress changes the law to make them felons, they will be barred from ever returning to the US because the current law also states that no visa can be issued to anyone convicted of a felony.
I for one am happy that the senate is considering fixing some of the problems with the immigration system rather than closing their eyes and hoping it goes away.
What is the solution that the house bill is proposing? To make it so difficult on 11 million people here that they have no means to survive and die? I’d hardly call it American, and certainly not Christian.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:33 am
“that have managed to weaken and/or destroy unionized labor over the past several decades.”
Economic liberalization, capital mobility, and globalization have done far more in this endeavor. Furthermore, were it not for these three factors, your point would be moot.
Moreover, if these three aforementioned factors remain, but there WERE NO immigrants, would things be any different? If it were not immigrants, there would be some other poor but convenient scapegoat to blame for the fact that unions are declining in power. Jobs are being outsourced to anyone willing to work for the cheap. I have talked with phone representatives (at least two) who worked in India. Prisons are also taking away work from unionized shops.
Some Democrats and MANY Republicans in Congress have made immigrants a target because frankly, in my opinion, they want to distract Americans from the fact that their neo-liberal economic policies are in fact the reason that their jobs are going elsewhere, and also why their wages are falling. The “Immigration Problem” is a trojan horse.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:36 am
“And like you and Marc, Jody, and Mary; I am dismayed at the subtle (and not so subtle) bigotry coming out of this.”
Mr. Cummings,
I don’t only think of myself or my family in this regard. I think about the millions that are in the same situation as me.
“Naturally, 12,000,000 illegal immigrants would make both good union members and Democrats”
Woody,
My husband is illegal I’m not, my husband and me both talk about the political cantidates and he knows how the system works, Oh by the way, I vote on a Republican Ballot every year.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:36 am
“Naturally, 12,000,000 illegal immigrants would make both good union members and Democrats, as exhibited by their first act as they entered the U.S.–breaking the law.”
You really don’t get out much, do you Woody?
March 28th, 2006 at 9:57 am
Majority of Americans are racist. They have persecuted the black people and now they are persecuting immigrants, be they illegal or not. Drawn from experience, I came across a lot of Americans who are just plainly lazy. I salute the Americans that I have met who were more hardworking than the immigrants and who excel in their field without taking advantage of others. My husband who works for the government and has been a US Citizen for years has complained to me how lazy his co-workers were. They act as if they’re the boss and would take the credit for a job they didn’t do. Either they don’t deserve their place in the workfield or their just plainly lazy.
And yes, Americans complain that illegal immigrants steal their jobs. These illegal immigrants have been used, abused, and misunderstood yet they even if they are paid less, they work more than an American would do. They appreciate the job that they have because they are grateful for whatever it is that is given to them and they strive hard. They try to excel in that poor work environment.
Terrorism has got nothing to do with this. Terrorists are not immigrants. Terrorists are just here to instill fear among us. Immigrants just wanted to live in a America so they can make a good life for their family which anyone deserves.
Americans should know their history. They should know what it means to be one. And I believe that in US History they mean-justice, freedom, and equality.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:07 am
markus,
Why there should be no border? Because there should be no country.
I know that this is unrealistic. But it is many Christians’ dream.
In fact, already there is no border in science, technology, economy, etc. We all have the same diseases, use the same telephone system and Internet, etc. In most part of the world, we even watch the same movies. Naturally, there will be one place in the world where research in diseases is the most advanced. And medical researchers around the world want to be in that place. Why people from other countries want to be in America? Because America is the best place in the world for many things. People don’t just come to America to take. They come to contribute, too. America to the world is like New York to America. And US’s past immigration policies contribute to that. If you want America continue to be such a place, you need to continue opening to the world.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:30 am
Is Southern-cracker a “hyphenated-American”?
March 28th, 2006 at 10:31 am
David Cumming, I “got out” to expand my horizons, and it’s raining. Thanks for the suggestion.
I left off that they would be good mafia members, too–but, they’re not Italian. Wait a minute, mafia and union are pretty closely related, so maybe I wasn’t so far off.
Okay, David, I’m tweaking you here. However, despite all the reasons for legalizing these people as citizens, I still feel that they need to “follow the system of laws.” A system of laws that aren’t enforced is no system at all.
And, Sam who quoted the inscription on the Statue of Liberty–that was meant for legal immigrants. I haven’t see a lot of Mexicans stopping off to check in at Ellis Island.
Adios
March 28th, 2006 at 10:33 am
I’m waiting for one of these babbling idiots who’s best shot is crying “racism” to explain to me why African-Americans have tougher views on illegal immigration than any other ethnic group.
Put up or shut up.
This is one of the least coherent, most evasive, bizarrely subjective set of comments I’ve ever seen on anything here – and there’ve been some doozies.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:33 am
John Doe, no more than “Damn-Yankee” is a hyphenated-American.
To Mary, who votes Republican–God bless you.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:41 am
Woody…you’re in your element here. In a duel between you and some of the folks you’re taking on, I think I’d have to pray for a stray bullet to put me out of the misery.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:46 am
Woody
Okay, David, I’m tweaking you here. However, despite all the reasons for legalizing these people as citizens, I still feel that they need to “follow the system of laws.†A system of laws that aren’t enforced is no system at all.
How often do you drive the speed limit and come to a complete stop on a right turn or even stop before the yellow light turns red?
March 28th, 2006 at 10:50 am
Lady Blindfolded, I disagree with the statement that most Americans are racist. While clearly some Americans are racist, *most* Americans are (for lack of a better term) “culturalists.” A black person waving an American flag and speaking English will tend to be looked at more favorably than a white guy waving a foreign flag and speaking a foreign language. Part of what holds a nation together are a shared sense of values and beliefs, and people with different values (or who cannot adequately communicate shared values) will be looked on with suspicion.
Perhaps this is an unproductive attitude, but it certainly is a natural one. I doubt a group of Americans blocking traffic and waving American flags in Mexico would be greeted kindly, but I wouldn’t attribute that to Mexican racism. This is one reason I think that waving Mexican flags at these events is only slightly less counterproductive than burning American ones. Unless Americans feel that immigrants assimilate the values and beliefs of the U.S.(something every wave of immigrants have had to face) — and if necessary, putting their loyalty toward their new home rather than their country of origin — they will be hesitant to allow them American citizenship.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:59 am
snarfangel-Perhaps this is an unproductive attitude, but it certainly is a natural one. I doubt a group of Americans blocking traffic and waving American flags in Mexico would be greeted kindly, but I wouldn’t attribute that to Mexican racism. This is one reason I think that waving Mexican flags at these events is only slightly less counterproductive than burning American ones. Unless Americans feel that immigrants assimilate the values and beliefs of the U.S.(something every wave of immigrants have had to face) — and if necessary, putting their loyalty toward their new home rather than their country of origin — they will be hesitant to allow them American citizenship.
I just believe we are doomed to repeat ourselves like 1940 and the jap internment camps these were Americans treated like spies and non americans. I had hope we as a nation have grown up and matured? Maybe not!
March 28th, 2006 at 10:59 am
While I agree waving flags from different countries was probably not the best idea, I think it was meant to show what country they were from.
There is *no* similarity in someone showing what country they are from by waving their flag, and burning ours.
The majority of immigrants are not terrorist, nor is the Hispanic Population being flagged for terrorism from INS, so it truly amazes me to hear (see) it brought up in conversation.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:06 am
1. Does the United States have the right to limit and control migration into the country?
2. If the answer is yes, then does the United States have the right to inforce messures against people who enter this country illegally?
We have been through this before. In 1986 we granted amnesty. Ronald Reagon felt guilty for his death squads forcing people out of central america and granted amnesty to the people who entered illegally.
Did it work? No.
We have to secure and control imigration into this country. If we decide not to control the border then we need to make Mexico the 51 state.
I am not a racest. I believe that we need immagrents to make this country what it needs to become.
If we grant amnesty to those here now we are only inviting 20 million more to come here illegally. If the people who immagrate to this country would put as much effort in changing the countries were they come from, we would not have the issues that we have. For all those protesting for rights as americans, go home and protest the policies that brought you to my home to start with.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:08 am
jodi-The majority of immigrants are not terrorist, nor is the Hispanic Population being flagged for terrorism from INS, so it truly amazes me to hear (see) it brought up in conversation.
Then why did Immagration and Naturalization Service Change there Name and Turn to HOMELAND SECURITY???? These are questions that should be thought on.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:16 am
I agree lets make Mexico the 51st state the we have a smaller border to patrol. By the way your home ends at the front door of your home then its our land. Which by the way was there land till we took it from them by force and used the words manafest destiny, but our land was there land and the indians land.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:20 am
Jane Lu — thank you for your response. But the very qualities that make America the place that literally hundreds of millions of people would like to come to would be threatened by unmanaged and unregulated immigration.
Under capitalism in America, we aren’t just individuals and citizens — we are labor value widgets. Too many widgets lowers their value, and lowers the quality of life for each of those “widget-persons”, particularly if they are all are speaking different languages.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:24 am
“You just ASSumed because my husband was Mexican, he was the one overpopulating… but in truth it was me.”
No I suspected you were invloved only mistook the ratios. If an illegal working for low wages can support all of these people I’d be surprised just on the economics of it. This really is a numbers game for me. I don’t care who they are or where they come from. I also don’t see how an illegal can gain two mortgages. I guess some of those wages are climbing?
March 28th, 2006 at 11:24 am
Jodi Mosqueda:
>>While I agree waving flags from different countries was probably not the best idea, I think it was meant to show what country they were from.
Very likely true, but most Americans care more about where you are headed rather than where you are from.
Okay, so that’s a bit glib. I will say that one of the reasons the Stars and Stripes are more prominantly displayed here than (for example) French flags are in France is because our people come from *everywhere*. An American flag is a handy shorthand showing the country you consider home. To us, a Mexican flag does not say “I’m an American immigrant,” it says “I’m a Mexican.”
>>There is *no* similarity in someone showing what country they are from by waving their flag, and burning ours.
I think it’s a matter of degree than of kind, but then again, American flags are burned so regularly around the world that it has lost some of its shock value. The only time I really pay attention is to critique the artistic skill of the person who created the flag to be burned — my favorite so far is the one that had five stripes and blue stars on a white field. It was, however, quite flammable.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:34 am
Apparently they don’t need no Ellis Island Woodrow. This thread really does take the cake. If we storm the Canadian border do I get Banff? I’ve always wanted Banff. It’s a dream I have. And, as a hominid who believes in international flyways, like the birds, I should have it. To hell with anyone, including lawmakers, who say otherwise.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:38 am
Mark A York
“I also don’t see how an illegal can gain two mortgages. I guess some of those wages are climbing?”
I suppose you were referring to me, since I am the one who say that I pay a mortgage. As Jodi said read everything, before you say anything. I have two propertys. I own both of them, but I only pay mortgage on one of them, because one is already paid for. Also I work full-time to help my husband. Another point you need to know is my husband is a skilled “illegal immigrant”.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:40 am
“If an illegal working for low wages can support all of these people I’d be surprised just on the economics of it. This really is a numbers game for me. I don’t care who they are or where they come from. I also don’t see how an illegal can gain two mortgages. I guess some of those wages are climbing?”
Where we live my husband makes slightly above minimum wage, but he works a LOT of overtime.
We don’t live in a high priced area though, we paid less than $50k for our home. (After owning a much smaller, cheaper house, repairing and purchasing that one even)
We don’t have 2 mortgages, so I can’t answer that for you… we just get by one what we have now.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:42 am
“Very likely true, but most Americans care more about where you are headed rather than where you are from.
Okay, so that’s a bit glib. I will say that one of the reasons the Stars and Stripes are more prominantly displayed here than (for example) French flags are in France is because our people come from *everywhere*. An American flag is a handy shorthand showing the country you consider home. To us, a Mexican flag does not say “I’m an American immigrant,†it says “I’m a Mexican.—
I agree with you on this 100%
March 28th, 2006 at 11:45 am
I guess the question I have is why is he illegal if he’s skilled? Low wages and long hours is not the American dream. In fact it’s what we fought for years against since long before the robber baron era. How nice to see we figured out how to go that far backwards.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:52 am
Mark A. York
“I guess the question I have is why is he illegal if he’s skilled?”
The reason he is illegal is because of the way the process works. It takes along time to go through the process of getting his citizenship. I guess you could say that he is one the people waiting in line.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
“I guess the question I have is why is he illegal if he’s skilled?”
Because the only option for him to become legal would be to leave the United States for a *minimum* of 1 year, and possible up to 10 years.
To us, as with many others, that is not a option.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
I;M ONE THOSE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS I SUPPOSE , I HAVE STRONG FEELING IF LEGISTLATORS CHOOSE TO GO DIRECTION TO BE DEPORTED ALL IMMIGRANTS. USA WILL LOOSE THEIR HONORABLE IMAGE AT INTERNATIONAL STAGE POLITICALLY, SO ON.
BECAUSE AMERICAN DREAM BUILT UPON IMMIGRATION SINCE USA FOUNDED
ACCORDING TO IMMIGRATION REFORM I CAN SEE POSITIVE EFFECTS ON AMERICAN ECONOMY ESPECIALLY COMMERCIAL AIRLINE ETC .PEOPLE LIKE ME CAN TRAVEL BACK TO MY OWN COUNTRY AT LEAST ONCE IN A YEAR
I’M TALKING ABOUT 11.5 MILLION PEOPLE WILL GIVE MORE AIM ON AIRLINES WHICH SOME OF THEM ON THE VERGE OF BANKRUPTSY
THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, ALSO SPEAKING OF NUMBERS ‘ SOMEONE SAYS IMMIGRANTS HAVING NEGATIVE IMPACT ON US ECONOMY
SCHOOL DISTRICT ‘MEDICAID I CAN NOT TOTALLY AGREE WITH THAT . LET ME HAVE EXAMPLE ON MYSELF .I DO PAY MY TAXES . HEALTH INSURANCE. I DO NOT ASK ANY SUPPORT FROM GOVERMENT NEITHER CHEAT ON THAT BUT I DO KNOW PEOPLE TAKE ADVANTAGE ON THAT MATTER UNFORTUNATLY;
FINAL THOUGHT I LIKE TO LIVE AND WORK
IN USA FOR CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME WITHOUT FEAR.I PROUD OF MY NATIONALITY AS YOU ARE PROUD OF AMERCAN I THINK MOST OF THESE PEOPLE WOULD NOT BE STAY IN AMERICA FOR THEIR LIFETIME’ NOT ME I DO NOT THINK I AM ALONE ON THIS WHICH MEANS GOVERMENT GETTING HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY FROM SOCIAL SECURITY FUNDI LIKE WHAT I DO HERE I DID NOT TAKE SOMEONE’S JOB. I EARNED IT HARD WAY ALONG COMPETITION. WAS NOT FAIR COMPETITION TO AT FIRST. I WANTED THAT JOB SO BADLY IN MY BOSS’S MIND I WAS LAST PERSON HE WOULD TURN TO. HE HIRED 5 PEOPLE ON THAT POSITION MOSR OF THEM WHOM HAD COLLEGE DEGREE COULD QUITE
FIGURE OUT WHAT IT’S POSITION’S REQUIREMENT BUT I DID IS IT MAKE YOU THINK I AM TAKING JOB AWAY FROM AMERICANS ? SO I ‘GOT SHARE A LOT OF THINGS RELATING TO THIS TOPIS IT COULD BE ENDLESS I BETTER CUT IT OFF
LONG LIVE AMERICA
March 28th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
And for the record, INS knows my husband is here, we have applied, he was issued a Visa Number… but the only way for him to get it is if there is some reform to the current laws OR he leaves this country and stays away from his family for what might be up to 10 years.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
I’m in the same boat as you Jodi, as many other american citizens are. Were in between a rock and a hard spot.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
For those of you who feel oppose current legislation, how much do you think it will cost our government to deport more than 11million people?
Who is going to foot that bill?
March 28th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
That should read, ” For those of you who oppose”
Sorry about that!
March 28th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
“guess you could say that he is one the people waiting in line.”
This is way it’s supposed to work. Unless I’m mistaken he’s waiting on a legal process, not working illegally. Illegals cheat him and every other legal immigrant.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Mark A. York
“Illegals cheat him and every other legal immigrant.”
How is that? I don’t see how they are hurting anyone. They just want to make a living for there families. I think any american if put in the shoes of and immigrant, they would do the same thing.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
I’m not surprised you don’t see it. I want to make a living too. It’s surprising how few people care if I can or not. However I’m not illegal. I’m not sneeking into Sweden, because hey, I don’t belong to that country.
The citizens of the world don’t belong to the USA either. They take as many as they can take. I don’t expect self-interested players to care. The law and what happens with it is another matter. You’ll see.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Mark A. York
“The law and what happens with it is another matter. You’ll see.”
Yes, we will see. I will betcha anything that the bill that McCain and Kennedy are working on will be pasted and amenisty will be granted.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
This whole immigration thing is a mess. I want to make my points.
1. US policy should never be influenced by foreigns. (Mexican government advertised its demands for support for illegals, in amercian papers.)
2. The protests should have been ignored. That would have been a major wake up call.
3. This energy should be turned against the mexican government. Why the heck don’t these half million protestors cry to their own government?
4. No one is complaining about the LEGAL immigrants that went throught the same process that all others have gone through.
5. The amnesty and guest worker programs are going to backfire in a major way.
6. Let’s get over the “they take jobs americans don’t want” crap out of the picture. It’s not true. There will always be an american willing to take that job.
7. The mass illegal immigrants cause way more damage than “economy support”. The facts are there.
8. The fact that illigal immigrants receive benefits and all the other “perks” makes me sick. They actually get paid to breed here.
9. It is true… the quality of life in america is decreasing with every immigrant. In arizona for example, the state is overwhelmed by immigrants, and most are illegal. We actually have hundreds of little mexico’s. They literally take decent neighborhoods (miles worth) and turn them into mexico look-a-like’s. Not a joke.
10. The fact that I have to dial 1 for english on everything… ABSOLUTELY PISSES ME OFF. I’m in freaking america, not mexico. Come on… if I move to mexico, and call my mexican bank, do you think it will say for english press 2? Do you think mexicans would pay for their government to provide funds to offer english everything because the millions of english speakers don’t want to learn spanish? No way! If every answering system is going provide spanish… what about the other hundreds of languages? I might as well be given a directory of language numbers. This one seriously drives me crazy. We have spanish tv, spanish radio, spanish everything… makes me sick. You want spanish… go to mexico!
11. Just me… I know 4 people that we’re involved in car accidents where the other drivers were at fault… of course…. illegals. Anyone from arizona will tell you… we’re sick of the ghetto mexican rides, the hundreds of crazy mexican drivers we face every 20 blocks, the same beat played in every mexican owned vehicle, the hundreds of accidents caused by mexicans with mexico driving experience, the hundreds of cars and trucks going 20 under the speed limit due to 10 fold passenger overload. Let’s get real.
12. Lets face it… not all states, cities and counties have the same level of problems involving illegals. But damn… some are out of control!
I could probably list a hundred more… but what’s the point right? Nobody cares… we all know it sucks… we all know that the ones making the decisions don’t face these issues during their daily lives. Come on. We’re in america… serve the citizens in priority. Force illegals to fight their own government, not ours.
And finally… to all the protestors… go home if you don’t like it here. Please. Go waive the american flag in front of your home country’s presidents office. Take your problems back to their origin.
GOSH!
March 28th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Arizonian
“They actually get paid to breed here.”
You talk as if they are animals. Your comment right there is racist. I didn’t want to use that word, but that is what you are.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:17 pm
Arizonan~ The words racist pig come to mind right about now.
Do you honestly believe the poison you just typed out?
As to the music, hell, I don’t like rap, but I’m not going to tell the millions of African-Americans that live here to get the hell out because they listen to loud music. Get real.
I’m assuming, since you’re such a racist ass, that you are full blooded native american? Because if you’re not, get the hell out of MY country.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
“I’m waiting for one of these babbling idiots who’s best shot is crying “racism†to explain to me why African-Americans have tougher views on illegal immigration than any other ethnic group.”
How open minded is it to assume, reg, that just because someone is “black,” that they are not susceptible to the same prejudices and non-prejudices as non-blacks? Just what are you suggesting? That blacks and immigrants are all alike? Help me out here.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
To extrapolate, reg, are you saying that anti-semitism is fine if a larger majority of blacks than whites are anti-semitic? Explain why it is important that “African-Americans have tougher views on illegal immigration than any other ethnic group.” I am not criticizing anyone, I am just curious in knowing.
By the way, I have listened to CSPAN at some of the rhetoric being thrown around, and I stand by my earlier statement that some of what is coming out of this is “bigotry” (I did not use the term, “racism,” and I was not referring to you or anyone on here, for the record).
March 28th, 2006 at 1:30 pm
Actually as a biologist I can tell you that all Homo sapiens are animals. Mammalia to be exact.
Cummings I don’t need to speak for reg but it’s a political reality and a valid observation just as hispanic groups favor Mexican and Central American immigration. African-descent Americans are a disproportionally affected ethnic segment. Supporters of illegal immigration don’t care one whit, yet yell racsim. Maybe you can help me out with that?
March 28th, 2006 at 1:40 pm
But Mark, no one is saying that we don’t care about what happens.
As a American I can see both sides of it, trust me, I do… But it is not as black and white as it seems.
I don’t think, nor will I ever state that the borders should be opened up.
Quite the contrary, I think they should be closed.
HOWEVER, there needs to be change made to the laws that allow for immigrant entry, especially from countries like Mexico, because they do NOT offer Green Card Lottery… which means there is next to no chance for a regular ‘person’ to come on a visa.
There is no way for us to feasibly deport 11 million people, the thought in itself is utterly ridiculous.. Not to mention the unbelievable expense that it will raise.
Not to mention the backlash that will have on our society will be greater than many care to admit..
To be quite honest, until they take care of the problem (lack of patrol on our borders) there will *ALWAYS* be illegal immigrants.. If you’ve ever been to a third world country, you will understand why.
The only feasible way to take care of the problem at this time is to have a mass Amnesty, making it well known that this is *the last* chance they will get for applying. Heavy fees should be imposed for applying, probably as much as $5,000. (not payable at once, but a minimum of half up front, the other payable within 2-5 years) and ALL monies collected from that should go straight to strengthening our borders, hiring more border patrol agents, etc.
At the very least, the legalization will insure that we know who the people are in our country… You have no idea who your next door neighbor is, or what they are capable of… They are not fingerprinted, or photos taken, nothing. We don’t know who anyone here illegally is.
I think anyone who believes this will come to mass deportation is dreaming, and then we will still have the problems of illegal immigrants in our country. That is not going to change, unless our government takes steps to strengthen our borders. period.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
“We actually have hundreds of little mexico’s. They literally take decent neighborhoods (miles worth) and turn them into mexico look-a-like’s………………..we’re sick of the ghetto mexican rides, the hundreds of crazy mexican drivers we face every 20 blocks, the same beat played in every mexican owned vehicle”
Okay, let me retract that last sentence on that last post of mine….I was not referring to MOST of you as having bigoted attitudes.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:48 pm
“Supporters of illegal immigration don’t care one whit, yet yell racsim. Maybe you can help me out with that?”
Well, I didn’t yell “racism,” if that is what you are implying (I used the term “bigoted,” and there is a difference).
I can’t “help you out,” but perhaps your ally on this issue, Arizonan, can provide you some information on this. I am sure that you will find that his post – portions of which I excerpted above – answers your question. Furthermore, it is not hard to find other examples of anti-Mexican rhetoric driving this issue. It’s not like it is hard to find. And for the record, Mark, I was not referring to you.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
What I would like for someone to answer is this – were those jobs that “we” are losing (“our jobs”) really “our” jobs to begin with? If there weren’t illegal immigrants taking those jobs, are you really so pollyanna in your thinking to believe that these employers would employ a legal resident or citizen for more money and better benefits? Don’t you think that those jobs would end up not existing anyway?
March 28th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
“As to the music, hell, I don’t like rap, but I’m not going to tell the millions of African-Americans that live here to get the hell out because they listen to loud music. Get real.”
Really. I could sure as hell do without seeing Larry the Cable Guy everytime I turn on the television or drive by a billboard, but you don’t hear me going on a crazy rant.
March 28th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
I used to dig ditches and haul lumber. I suppose if wasn’t for my aging back I could still do it, were it not for cheap illegal help, yes they’d have to pay more and the job would indeed still be there.
There will be no amnesty. Bigoted or not.
March 28th, 2006 at 2:24 pm
“Really. I could sure as hell do without seeing Larry the Cable Guy everytime I turn on the television or drive by a billboard, but you don’t hear me going on a crazy rant.”
Me neither. But I think he should be banned from the US period.
I apologize, my comment wasn’t meant to offend, I was just trying to make a comparison.
March 28th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
The politicians are only telling you what they think will get them re-elected, and add to the exaggerated claims of all the so-called harm the undocumented workers are creating.
More jobs are lost to the “favored” nation status given China, than all of the illegal immigrants in this country. If you don’t believe me, look at the country of original on every product you buy in the next two days.
Look beyond what the politicians are saying; and think for yourself. How many people do you know that has actually lost their job to an illegal immigrant?
March 28th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
Snarfangel,
You’re just being silly. Every ethnic group in the country waves their flags around. I live in Chicago, and there’s barely a weekend that goes by where there isn’t some sort of heritage parade, whether its Polish, Mexican, Italian, Dominican, Irish, whatever.
Being able to celebrate where we came from while simultaneouly loving American is one of our greatest traits.
Or maybe we should just round up all those bastards dyeing the river green next year.
March 28th, 2006 at 3:03 pm
It seems to me, reading these comments, that many of the posters have self interests in supporting or not supporting undocumented crossing of the border from the south — “illegal immigration.†That is how it is. Simplistically, if you have nothing, you wish to have something. If you have something, you wish to hold on to it.
I am a registered democrat, and have never voted otherwise. One of my best friends came to this country 25 years ago on a student visa from south of the border. Her visa expired, and she was illegal. She is smart, caring, and an ideal American. I would have fought for her to remain here, but she was never harassed by the Immigration officials, so there was no need. She is now a citizen of this country. I have a nephew who is Mexican, adopted, and much loved. I voted against proposition 187 in California, which would have prohibited the undocumented from obtaining medical services.
I truly believe that the greatness of this country has been dependent on the inventiveness and diversity of ideas of those who have immigrated to become Americans. The ideal of freedom, and a chance to advance without prejudice — though those ideas have been hard fought, and won again and again. It is what we, as Americans, believe in.
I have chosen to live in Southern California, and the flavor has always been south of the border, and that makes it a wonderful place.
That said, the massive influx of peoples, without regard to results in this country will so weigh it down that it will break. In California the schools are overcrowded. The education that students receive is half baked and watered down. Spelling and sentence structure are a thing of the past. Students know little about history, and far less about the way the government works. Hospitals emergency rooms are closing, and those that are still open are so overcrowded, you must pray you don’t become ill. Blue collar workers, Blacks, Latinos, and Whites are losing their jobs at an alarming rate, unwilling to take slavery wages. You need proof? Employment is rising, and unemployment is rising too! How can that be? In order to have public services such as good health care, decent schools, public transportation, and repaired streets and freeways we must have a middle class of tax payers. Because of the reduced quality of life many middle class tax payers are moving out of California.
Who has the power to make sure immigration continues unchecked? Not you. Not protesters in the street. Corporations; agribusiness, service industries, and manufacturers. They will see that the right candidates win the elections — Democrats or Republicans. These candidates know how to shape public opinion. These entities don’t care about human rights, civil rights, gay marriage, health care, or traffic problems. They WANT unlimited low wage workers, and since they can’t outsource ALL jobs, they want them streaming in unhampered. Then there are the opponents of corporations; the unions. One might think the unions would try to protect their membership from lowered wages, but such is not the case. The unions want the amnesty, so that they can have all those new members paying into the union coffers; the more the merrier.
So go ahead yell “racist,†yell “bigot,†yell “liberal, conservative, idiot,†protest in the street, write to your elected representatives. But know that America is changing, and the very reason that people want to be here will be crushed under the weight of those who rush in to seek it. The corporations with their global economies will just move on to the next sucker consumer country.
March 28th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
Boy, David…you really have a knack for missing the point. Think about it…
March 28th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Lynn…good thoughtful post.
March 28th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
To try to be slightly less dismissive…I asked for one of you on the “bigots are against immigration” side to explain the phenomenon of African-American attitudes toward immigration. Maybe if you stopped to think about that aspect of it, you’d drop some of your glib moralizing. (That you also ask the question, “What jobs?” just strikes me as more of this elitist “leftism”.)
March 28th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
>>Buck Says:
March 28th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
>>Snarfangel,
You’re just being silly. Every ethnic group in the country waves their flags around. I live in Chicago, and there’s barely a weekend that goes by where there isn’t some sort of heritage parade, whether its Polish, Mexican, Italian, Dominican, Irish, whatever.
Celebration != Demonstration. A few thousand Mexican flags during Cinco de Mayo is a bit less threatening than the same number during a political protest.
March 28th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
I’m still re-reading some of the comments from threads over the past couple days, so I’ll apologize up front if I am misinterpeting someone’s point…
…reg, you brought up a good question, but like David Cummings, I’m not sure I understand where you’re going with it. You’re probably right, reg, about Black America being the most reactionary and anti-immigration of any ethnetic group. The explanation for this is…I don’t know…I’d like to hear an explanation of this myself. What do you think explains this, reg?
…this is a bit anadotial (damn it, where’s that F&%$#@ spell check button?!) but as the demonstrations rolled out into the streets here in Detroit, a decent number of rally supporters where actually Black clergy who help run relief organizations throughout the city. Maybe there’s a historical spirit of standing with the underdogs here — Detroit was one of the last stops on the old underground railroad.
March 28th, 2006 at 4:36 pm
To pitch in with the importance and the positive impact this bill will have on many people, I would like to pitch in with a brief summary of my own experience in this country.
I’m currently 21 yrs. old. I was brought to this country at age 4 legally with a now expired visa. At four, I had no control of my destiny. I graduate from High School with a top GPA. I did not have the means and support to apply to a University at time of graduation. I’m about to finish my third year of Community College and just a few weeks ago received a letter of acceptance from CSUN. I’m supposed to transfer to Northridge this fall. I have been working illegally part time to pay for my personal expenses, classes, books and have been putting money on the side for my soon to come university tuition. I have made my life here. I have my family here. I have shaped my person here. I have my closest friends here. I’m far in my education and have no interest in returning to Mexico and start from cero. I hope to graduate and overcome the many limitations I have as an illegal immigrant. I miss my homeland and family there and wish that someday I can return to visit knowing I can make it back.
Just like me, there are hundreds of thousands of students who were brought to the U.S at a young age. Had no choice and were raised here. For me and the many other students who have lived here for many years, now consider the U.S their home This Immigrant Reform initiative will be our salvation. Another bill, the Dream Act, focused on the needs that students like me have but failed to receive enough support; we now see this as our last chance.
Like the many points mentioned in previous postings, we have been welcomed here, we have been serving and contributing to the well being of this country not only in the labor and economic sense, but in many other ways positive ways. You think of them.
I understand the importance of limiting and enforcing migratory regulation at this time. What I don’t understand is terminating illegal immigrants who YOU pretend are not there even though they offered you a type of service today, did you wonder then? No! How so? You closed your eyes then, but when we talk in millions, then you start considering and start to think deeply for yourself. When you come across an illegal immigrant, he represents the millions, now think of the present, has he affected you in some way, has “he” in this present? Like mentioned, we are already here and have been here for many many years and plan to continue our lives here! Border enforcement is necessary, but don’t just throw away the lives of the many who have served our country, made it “the best” and made possible your comforts at times when you just play along.
March 28th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
Yes excellent reasoned commentary Lynn.
March 28th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
By the way Rodrigo I’m a CSUN graduate. When they opened the campus briefly to illegals as residents the place was crushed under the weight and I couldn’t park to get the last classes I needed to finally graduate after 30 years, so I had to leave campus for a semester until they closed it. The difference was telling. This isn’t anything against you personally but there are ramifications of too many people in one place. In any place, really. And there are many victims of circumstances. Keep after it, and apply for citizenship. That’s what college will teach you.
March 28th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
I fail to see anything good about this.
I’ve been angry with the Republicans for the past 6 years for blatant fiscal irresponsibility and complete incompetence in the area of foreign policy. Growing cries of outrage have fallen on their deaf ears as our country has been INVADED by up to 20 million illegal immigrants, who have begun their careers here by demonstrating a complete desregard for the laws of the very nation they wish to call home. We have absolutely no clue WHO or WHAT may have entered the United States concealed in that continuing human wave. The Republicans have spent 6 years making noises about homeland security. Give me a break! Just how stupid do you they think we are?
Now we’ve got the Democrats–who I must admit I generally empathize with–suggesting we solve the problem by simply allowing everyone who’s entered illegally to stay. There’s nothing I see suggesting any one of them is seriously interested in securing our borders. Not that they won’t talk about it and point fingers at each other as the elections approach.
What is REALLY happening, is that corporate and upper class America are assuring themselves a continuing supply of dirt-cheap labor. Oh, I know: “They only do the jobs that Americans (and LEGAL immigrants, by the way) won’t do.” Right. Because corporate America and its beneficiaries don’t want to cut into their profits by paying DECENT LIVING WAGES and by providing basic employee benefits.
And who provides for all the social services 20 million illegals require? The middle class taxpayers, that’s who.
Some might thing there’s social justice in allowing everybody who wants to enter the country to come on in. Tell that to the legal immigrant who obeyed all the rules, but can’t compete for a job with his flood of illegal cousins. And maybe you can explain to the illegal breaking his back for substandard wages and no benefits how he’s being exploited. You won’t get far. He’s happy just to be getting regular meals. That’s your social justice.
March 28th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
WHO’S RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS MESS!
The Reagan/Bush administration had taken the first steps to initiate NAFTA, but it was Clinton in 1993 that signed sealed and delivered it with Al Gore’s help. Instead of trying to push through a universal healthcare system Clinton/Gore aligned with big business to do a number on the working-class. Clinton may have gotten impeached for having fellatio with Monica Lewinsky; but he should have been impeached for SCREWING THE AMERICAN WORKER!
AMERICAN WORKERS ARE INTERESTED IN REAL VALUES! We need to have Democrats who DEFINITIVELY TELL US THEIR POSITION ON IRAQ; OUTSOURCING: HEALTHCARE; EDUCATION; POVERTY; CIVIL LIBERTIES: CIVIL RIGHTS: WOMEN’S RIGHTS; CORRUPT LOBBYISTS; AND CORRUPT ELECTED OFFICIALS; etc…
The Bush/Republican and Clinton/Democratic administration constructed an agreement with the wealthy and the powerful to create a NEW SOCIAL CONTRACT—one that globally excluded the working-class and poor.
OFFSHORE OUTSOURCING—WHAT IS IT?
879,280 U.S. JOBS WERE LOST FROM OURSOURCING: 1993 – 2002
Proponents of Free Trade Agreements frequently claimed that such deals create jobs and raise incomes in the United States. These claims are based only on the positive effects of exports (known as “export effects”), ignoring the negative effects of imports (known as “import effects”). Such arguments are an attempt to hide the NEGATIVE costs of new trade deals in order to boost the reported benefits.
The problem with these claims is that they misrepresent the real effects of trade on the U.S. economy– trade both creates and destroys jobs. Increases in U.S. exports tend to create jobs in this country, but increases in imports tend to reduce jobs by displacing goods that otherwise would have been made in the United States by domestic workers. Ignoring imports and counting only exports is like balancing a checkbook by counting only deposits but not withdrawals.
We are losing all manufacturing jobs –-THE ONES THAT HAD SOCIAL CONTRACTS—the ones with good hourly salaries, benefits and job security. These same jobs are being replaced with lower paying positions and no benefits. Why you might ask, because we are all becoming citizens of the world. PROFITS ARE THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS! Workers are losing their bargaining power as corporations dismantle unions and replace them with outsourced jobs.
OFFSHORE OUTSOURCING
Offshore Outsourcing and Foreign Worker programs are devastating the U.S. working-class. The IT workforce is especially affected by offshore outsourcing, because much of this technology, research and development are taking place offshore. In the worst case scenario, outsourcing technology could even place our nation at risk. Imagine if all digital technology was developed and controlled offshore? Who needs a conventional military attack if you can control and manipulate all digital transactions—WE’VE created a technological Neutron Time Bomb!
American companies can save large amounts of money by building and or/documenting products in low-wage countries and then selling them right back to the U.S. Not only are manufacturing products sold back to the U.S. after the labor is outsourced; but so are computer software programs, websites, and other goods and services. We’re no longer talking about rubber dogs from Taiwan—we are talking about software/programs that control Key business processes in the U.S.—even defense related technologies.
WHEN DOES GREED BECOME TRAITOROUS?
Millions of workers are being sold-out by our government
U.S. based defense contractors “sub-out†work to companies in offshore nations. There is no way to track this kind of electronic activity. But it seems that U.S. security is no longer an issue as long as businesses do not have to pay an American IT worker $50.00 per hour; when he can pay a worker at an Indian firm $6.00 per hour. Some of this “sub-out†work could be sensitive in nature, with descriptive details about combat systems. In the world of national defense, we are often told by politicians that we must plan for all possibilities. Isn’t that why our government implemented the Patriot Act? Our elected leaders are permitting warrantless domestic surveillance of innocent U.S. citizens, but don’t seem to care that greedy corporate CEOS undermine our national security.
FOREIGN WORKER/ IMMIGRATION
Businesses have been taking advantage of H-1B and L-1 Workers programs. The H-1B visa program allows American companies and universities to import foreign scientists, engineers and programmers. This is known as “sponsoring,†where a company or educational institution can appeal on the foreign workers behalf to the U.S. Government for legal rights to work here for a specific period. The L-1 Visa is available to Intra-company Transferees who have been employed outside of the U.S. for at least one of the prior three years. L-1 Visas poses no limits to immigrant workers who come to the U.S. and replace American Workers.
THE FINANCIAL ADVANTAGE TO COMPANIES IS THAT THEY DO NOT PAY THE FOREIGN WORKER THE PREVAILING U.S. WAGE; BUT INSTEAD, A LOWER SALARY OR HOURLY RATE. THIS IS WRITTEN IN THE FOREIGN WORKERS’ SPONSORSHIP AGREEMENT. So American Workers will train their foreign replacement, who will work in the U.S. using a visa and get paid at a much lower rate doing the same job!
CORRUPT GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS, CAUSED BY CROOKED LOBBYLISTS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR DESTROYING THE AMERICAN WORKING-CLASS!
The public is told that offshore outsourcing frees up labor that can be redeployed—but does not make sense to a U.S. worker who has been laid off and can’t find another job?
RECENT REPORTS INDICATE THAT BY 2015 the acceleration of outsourcing will result in 3.3 MILLION AMERICAN JOBS MOVING OFFSHORE.
The total tax loss over the next five years because of outsourcing comes to 13 BILLION DOLLARS—7.5 BILLION IN LOST SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE REVENUE, 4.4 BILLION IN FEDERAL REVENUE AND 1.5 BILLION IN STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT TAXES. IS THIS WHY BUSH WANTED TO TAMPER WITH SOCIAL SECURITY—HIS CORPORATE BUDDIES CAUSED THE DEPLETION OF SOCIAL SECURITY REVENUES, BY OUTSOURCING AMERICAN JOBS, AND THEN HE WANTS TO FORCE THE AMERICAN WORKER TO PAY FOR CORPORATE GREED.
60,000 AUTO WORKERS DRIVEN OUT OF JOBS
General Motors’ plans to eliminate an additional 30,000 hourly jobs by 2008, it will have devastating consequences for cities in the United States and Canada; its ripple effects will hit working class communities throughout the two countries. The closure of twelve facilities will reduce the auto maker’s manufacturing jobs in North America by nearly a third.
Taken together with hourly and salaried job cuts already announced this year by GM, Ford and the auto parts makers Delphi and Visteon, this will bring the total number of auto jobs targeted for destruction to 60,000, and this does not take into account the impact of Ford’s downsizing plan. The number two US auto maker has made clear that it intends to eliminate thousands of jobs and permanently close a number of factories.
Since 2000, more than 100,000 hourly and salaried automotive jobs have been eliminated in the US. The latest GM cuts are part of a longer-term trend in which corporations have wiped out jobs that once provided a relatively stable livelihood for manufacturing workers. Through major struggles in the 1930s and into the post-war period, workers were able to win concessions in pay and benefits. This was particularly the case in the auto industry; however, outsourcing has eliminated workers’ power to bargain and has destroyed the SOCIAL CONTRACT that upheld laws and regulations that prevented exploitation.
THE SOCIAL CONTRACT HAS BEEN REPLACED BY GLOBALIZATION—IN OTHER WORDS, THE CORPORATOCRACY SAYS THAT THE WORLD IS FLAT, AND YOU ARE NOW A CITIZEN OF THE WORLD.
THE SNEAKY FOX HIDES BEHIND A BIG BUSH
Mexican immigration to the U.S. helps MEXICO’S WHITE ELITE stay in power. The white Mexican elite are determined to keep as many of their poorer, darker-skinned countrymen heading north.
The emigration SAFTEY VALVE has been a clever policy adapted by Fox—to ensure the current status quo remains.
Vicente Fox talks frequently about improving Mexico’s economy; while his real priority is to increase the emigration “safety valve.â€
Bush encourages this kind of thinking by spouting such meaningless, pseudo-humanitarianism nonsense as “Family values don’t stop at the Rio Grande.”
If Bush was really serious about helping Mexico, the first thing he should do is help Mexicans break their self-defeating addiction to the emigration safety valve. But that would mean doing away with the corrupt Mexican oligarchy—something that will never happen; since this corrupt Mexican government is continually propped up by the Bush administration.
VIVA BUSH
March 28th, 2006 at 5:24 pm
NAFTA was supposed to keep businesses IN Mexico, but then the wages were so low that this was self-defeating. Emigration is a safety valve for a gaping wound.
March 28th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
Oh Marc, everyone…geeze I almost forget to brag about this! Something cool happened today — beyond the McCain-Kennedy bill moving along — Governor Granholm (another furriner!) signed a bill to raise the minimum wage in Michigan up to $6.95 (this Oct) and going to $7.40 (July 07). Here’s the lowdown: This attempt at a wage increase had been in progress by the Dem’s for nearly a year. The MI GOP reply had been “…raising the min. wage is a job killer…yada yada…” The Repub’s were dead set against ANY increase until the this aggressive SoCal political firm was dispatched to manage a ballot intiatitive end-round around the Republican blockade. Yours truely organized a virtual blitzkrieg around the state and made the Republicans cry uncle…not just a majority but the entire Michigan Republican Senate did a 180 and got religion about raising the minimum wage. The bill passed two weeks ago unnamiously, and got signed today. The Republicans caved in the face of potential ballot intiative that would have easily passed.
The working-class poor of Michigan are winners today!!!
March 28th, 2006 at 6:15 pm
I didn’t read all the responses. Heck, I only read three or four. I just want to point out one thing, a lot of these immigrants have family here, as in spouses and children, many citizens. I think a few of you debating this are forgetting about the families. I myself would be forced to rely on cash aide, hud, medical, and foodstamps should my husband be forced to leave this country. Our child would be grow up in poverty and with out a father. Our situation would not be unique. In addition, there are many illegal immigrants who would leave their children here in fostercare or to be adopted, because they don’t want them to be disadvantaged. It would be terrible to tear apart so many families, and that’s exactly what mass deportation would do.
March 28th, 2006 at 6:36 pm
reg said: Woody…you’re in your element here. In a duel between you and some of the folks you’re taking on, I think I’d have to pray for a stray bullet to put me out of the misery.
Except that I have no idea what others are saying because of time and mental fatigue. (I worked 17 hours yesterday and can’t rest until after April 17th.) I suppose you meant that their remarks are as brilliant as mine. (Are there any easy librarian jobs out there for me?)
Please say that we’re not on the same side of an issue.
—–
Rob Grocholski said: You’re probably right, reg, about Black America being the most reactionary and anti-immigration of any ethnetic group. The explanation for this is…I don’t know…I’d like to hear an explanation of this myself. What do you think explains this, reg?
For the same reason that they don’t like Asians running the liquor stores and convenience stores in their neighborhoods? It’s economic competition–and, maybe, some envy of their success.
A group of foreigners is taking away opportunities from a segment of our citizens (despite Pres. Fox saying that “even blacks” don’t want those jobs.) Also, while I don’t buy it, I’ve heard a number of my black friends (yeah, more than two or three) express concern that foreigners come in and get favorable government loans that the blacks can’t get to fund their businesses.
—–
Rob also said: The working-class poor of Michigan are winners today!!!
Yeah, until tomorrow when McDonald’s and other businesses fire them to meet their budgets.
Minimum wages are not wages meant to support families. They are for entry level workers. Raising the bottom tier pushes up all workers to higher wages, making even higher paid workers less competitive. Now, let’s wait and see how many more automotive jobs move out of Michigan to Alabama.
If raising minimum wages worked, then why do you always have to raise them every so many years? Because it’s a ruse to get votes. It simply results in jobs and other wages being realigned until everyone ends up back where they started in the beginning.
—–
I haven’t kept up with the news (except the Final Four), so I can’t speak authoritatively on this…but, I heard that part of the legislation would require withholding 7% of the pay to illegals. That’s really great! (Sarcasm) Look what a legal American would pay on the same 1099 wages….. (I hope these line up correctly.)
FICA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 07.65%
Matching FICA. . . . . . . 07.65%
Fed Taxes (approx). . . 20.00%
State Taxes (est) . . . . 05.00%
TOTAL . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40.30%
Wow, talk about disincentives to hire legals (or work)!!! An illegal immigrant has 7% taken out while a legal American pays 40%!
So, an employer has to pay an American an extra 33% for his taxes plus an extra 11% to pay taxes on that extra pay, just so that both end up with the same net. Who would you hire? Quick and dirty math says that you can pay an American $1.00 or an illegal $0.56, because he’s not reporting or paying the taxes. (Don’t tell me that the illegals pay the taxes. I guess you think that ticket scalpers report their income, too.)
—-
I gotta get back to work.
Ciao
March 28th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
I think the 7% is in ADDITION to what is currently withheld for taxes.
Most illegals DO pay taxes, I know my husband does.
March 28th, 2006 at 7:15 pm
There are no lists of people who don’t pay taxes because, if there were, the IRS would make sure that no one was left on it. So, we’re left with sketchy information.
I find it interesting that so many businesses that I help have Mexican workers who share the same phony social security numbers. By the time they’re discovered and the IRS orders back-up withholding, those workers are gone. I believe it is a worse problem than many are willing to admit. Jodi, I’m glad that your husband is not among those who evade taxes.
Maybe someone can report the correct information as to whether the 7% withholding is “in total” or “in addition.” I was under the impression that it was in total.
March 28th, 2006 at 7:30 pm
Last One and I’m gone….
Off Topic follow-up to Rob Groch… In today’s news:
GM Lays Off Several Hundred Employees
http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/03/28/ap2628736.html
It was the first round of salaried cuts this year for the world’s largest automaker which is struggling with sluggish sales, shrinking U.S. market share and high health and pension costs that put it at a competitive disadvantage against Asian rivals.
Now, that Michigan has artificially raised wages, now let them force businesses to provide even more health care benefits and drive them out of business altogether.
I hope Michigan workers learn to speak with Southern accents, because their jobs are going South–geograhically and figuratively speaking.
March 28th, 2006 at 7:37 pm
“reg, you brought up a good question, but like David Cummings, I’m not sure I understand where you’re going with it”
My point is that – unless one wants to conjure that for some strange reason blacks are more disposed to be prejudiced against folks with dark skin than are caucasians – the resentments and fears about illegal immigration are rooted primarily in anxieties about economic displacement by folks who don’t feel they can afford even greater competition at the lower rungs of the labor market. It’s the sense – which according to the notorious bigot Paul Krugman, among others, has a factual basis – that an influx of cheap labor isn’t helpful to folks who are already struggling. To shrug concerns about illegal immigration off as racism is, IMHO, pure bull. Of course there are racist expressions against illegal immigrants. But that’s not what’s driving the opposition except at the extreme margins. I can’t for the life of me figure out why the issue of cheapening labor and stressing public services isn’t obvious or considered defensible, at least in the case of black anxieties. White people are easy to bait as racist. I would assume one would think twice before simply dismissing the concerns of a group of Americans who’s unemployment rates and sense of being squeezed into already failing educational systems, health care, etc. are at a more critical level than the folks who routinely hire nannies and yard men – and wouldn’t consider applying for a job at a fast food joint.
March 28th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
“I find it interesting that so many businesses that I help have Mexican workers who share the same phony social security numbers. By the time they’re discovered and the IRS orders back-up withholding, those workers are gone. I believe it is a worse problem than many are willing to admit. Jodi, I’m glad that your husband is not among those who evade taxes.”
I don’t think they need to ‘discover’ it, because if they issue ITIN’s to them (which many we know have them, including my husband which is how he pays taxes) then they know they are here working, their collecting the tax monies, and they don’t care.
“Maybe someone can report the correct information as to whether the 7% withholding is “in total†or “in addition.†I was under the impression that it was in total. “”
I personally hope it’s in total, then I get to keep the other 30%+ out of my husband’s check. lol
March 28th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Incidentally, Rob, from the one Zogby poll I’ve seen that broke down attitudes toward immigration into fairly detailed issues and by ethnic groups, while blacks tended to be more dubious of immigration – even legal immigration – than other groups, they also tended to be more liberal on the question of providing services, drivers licenses, student aid, etc. to people once they were here, regardless of legal status. I think this shows that they have anxieties about the economic and social impact of immigration on their own circumstances, but they also don’t like creating social “apartheid” for real live people and their families once their existence here is a fait accompli. Seems pretty reasonable…
March 28th, 2006 at 7:56 pm
Woody you just had your business handed to you by an amateur. What does that make you a so-called tax accountant? I agree reg I don’t know what these people are thinking. It’s just ignoring an economic reality and resorting to appeal to emotion to a ready-made audience suscecptible to it.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
Please say that we’re not on the same side of an issue.
Woody–stranger things could happen!
What If
What if the simple solution to this problem were implemented—a truly nationalist monetary system for Mexico? One that would be free from the dictates of the international plutocracy, and run based on the needs of the Mexican economy and people; one that recognizes the real purpose of money?
What if Mexico—and other nations captive to the international usury-based banking system—regained control of their economies in such a way, reinvigorated their people, regained their pride and sense of purpose—and told the I.M.F. and money-center banks to go pound salt?
March 28th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
First, I agree with the content of your “Breakthrough” post. I especially liked your point about the Service Employees International Union’s support of the L.A. march/protest and why it would be logical for organized labor to support same.
Second, I think it’s great that this issue is cutting across the political party lines in the U.S. Congress as illustrated by the Senate Judiciary Committee’s 12-6 vote that required 4 Republicans to join the Democrats on the Committee to form the 12-vote majority. It’s also rather interesting to turn on the TV and see Senator Kennedy on CNN saying “I applaud the President for his stand on Immigration Reform ” .
DW Foster
Michigan
March 28th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
I stumbled onto this article, and thought it was interesting enough to share:
New Immigration Plan Favors Business Over People
A bi-partisan effort from the Federal government is emerging to close the borders with Mexico by increasing barriers that keep “illegal†immigrants from traveling to and from Mexico, and in turn creating a guest worker program with specific time limits for residency. Reminiscent of the defunct bracero program, the status of “guest worker†has reappeared as the preferred name for Mexican nationals working in this country.
The leading organization behind the guest worker legislation is The Essential Worker Immigration Coalition (EWIC), which was organized in 1999, while Bill Clinton was still president. The group quickly grew to include 36 of the country’s most powerful employer associations, headed by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The National Association of Chain Drug Stores—including Wal Mart (which was sanctioned for employing undocumented workers last year)—belongs, as do the American Health Care Association, the American Hotel and Lodging Association, the National Council of Chain Restaurants, the National Restaurant Association, and the National Retail Federation. Each of these associations represents employers who depend on a workforce almost entirely without benefits and working at (or below) minimum wage.
Edward Kennedy, Democrat, and John McCain, Republican, are promoting a bi-partisan bill that would create the designation of “guest worker†for a three year period. About half a million workers would be eligible for the status if they are sponsored by American businesses and pay five hundred dollars. The over ten million undocumented workers residing in the United States who are not sponsored by businesses would be encouraged to come forward and pay a two-thousand-dollar fine to receive the new status. The guest worker category can be renewed after three years, or businesses could sponsor workers for green cards.
The proposed legislation does not address the growing problem of undocumented workers residing in the United States. Because of the nature of the work being offered under this program, most guest workers will be left with little more than minimum wage employment. There are no benefits or health care offered under the new program. The two-thousand-dollar price tag for uninvited potential guest workers means that most of the more than ten million undocumented workers will be unwilling to come forth. Historically, millions of Mexican laborers would return to Mexico during off-seasons to visit family. Today, with tighter border restrictions and the cost of paying a labor smuggler up to $300, few people return to Mexico, resulting in permanent under-class poverty communities spread out throughout the country.
There has been no serious discussion on Capitol Hill on realistically dealing with the undocumented worker situation in this country because U.S. corporations will continue to benefit from cheap labor sources from outside and inside the borders of the United States.
The official bracero program, negotiated in 1942 between the U.S. and Mexican governments was ended in 1964. Ernesto Galarza, a labor organizer, former diplomat and early hero of the Chicano movement, was its greatest opponent in Washington. But Cesar Chavez was also an early voice calling for abolition. Chavez later said he could never have organized the United Farm Workers until growers could no longer hire braceros during strikes. In fact, the great five-year grape strike in which the UFW was born began the year after the bracero program ended. According to the UFW’s Mark Grossman, “Chavez believed agribusiness’ chief farm labor strategy for decades was maintaining a surplus labor supply to keep wages and benefits depressed, and fight unionization.â€
The organization of veterans of the bracero program, with chapters in both the U.S. and Mexico, was even more critical. “We’re totally opposed to the institution of new guest worker programs,†explained Ventura Gutierrez, head of the Union Sin Fronteras. “People who lived through the old program know the abuse they will cause.†One former bracero, Manual Herrera, told the Associated Press’s Julianna Barbassa, “they rented us, got our work, then sent us back when they had no more use for us.†Thousands of former braceros are still trying to collect money deducted from their pay during the 1940s and 1950s.
Money that was supposedly held in trust to ensure they completed work contracts, but never turned over to them. Bush’s proposal contains a similar provision. “If we accept, then our grandsons and great-grandsons will go through what we went through,†ex-bracero Florentino Lararios told Barbassa. U.S. labor opposition focused on the lack of a real amnesty. Eliseo Medina, executive vice president of the Service Employees International Union, and one of the AFL-CIO’s key policy makers on immigration, said, “Bush tells immigrants you have no right to earn citizenship, but tells corporations you have the right to exploit workers, both American and immigrant….†This proposal allows hard-working, tax-paying immigrants to become a legitimate part of our economy, but it keeps them from fully participating in our democracy—making immigrants a permanent sub-class of our society.
Update by David Bacon: “How Corporations Won the Debate over Immigration†broke a story of national importance—how the largest U.S. corporations, dependent on a steady supply of immigrant workers, got the President and Congress to introduce legislation giving them a vastly expanded guest worker program. This program, like the old “bracero†program of the 1940s and ’50s, used a system of contract labor to exploit immigrant workers and deny them their rights, while creating an oversupply of labor to drive down wages for all workers, immigrant and non-immigrant alike.
The story was originally published in the fall of 2004. By the spring of 2005, corporate pressure for expanded guestworker programs had grown so strong that even bipartisan proposals for immigration reform included them. The word in Washington DC is now that no immigration reform is worth discussing unless corporate America gets what it wants. In mid-May, a new bill was introduced by Senators Edward Kennedy and John McCain, which includes a program even larger than that proposed by Bush.
The President’s program calls for 300,000 people to be given temporary visas for three years, renewable for another three. The Kennedy/McCain bill calls for 400,000 temporary visas. In addition, the bill calls for requiring the 9 million currently undocumented immigrants in the U.S. to enroll as guestworkers for six years to qualify for making application for a green card, and to pay a $2000 fine. Increased enforcement of employer sanctions, the law that makes it a federal crime for an undocumented worker to hold a job, would be used to force people into the program by making it even more risky to try to work without becoming a guest worker.
Despite these draconian provisions, the bill won the sponsorship of many Democrats, and almost no Republicans. In the meantime, Texas Senator Cornyn annouunced his intention to introduce an even more conservative bill in mid-July. The Cornyn bill is regarded as the legislative embodiment of the President’s program. It is a straight temporary worker bill, with no provisions for legalization.
No matter whether sponsored by Democrats or Republicans, the corporate lobby for temporary workers has legislation which corresponds to its program.
In the meantime, however, a much more liberal bill has been introduced by Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee and members of the Congressional Black Caucus. Instead of increasing job competition and pitting one group of low-wage workers against another, the bill tries to balance the needs of all low-wage workers. African-American and other minority communities suffering high unemployment would receive job training and creation programs. The bill would set up a legalization program for undocumented immigrants based on their residency, rather than employment status. It has provisions to strengthen protection for the rights of immigrant workers, ends discrimination against immigrants from countries like Haiti and Liberia, and has no guest worker program.
Republicans and many Democrats have derided the Jackson Lee bill as incompatible with the atmosphere in Congress, which seeks both to reward corporations and increase punitive measures against immigrants, especially the undocumented. But a rising tide of protest in immigrant communities and other communities of color around the country has criticized the growing wave of anti-immigrant legislation, and is callling for a movement to defend their rights instead.
Generally, the story of corporate sponsorship of the guest worker proposals has been ignored by the mainstream media. Reports on the Kennedy-McCain and Bush proposals have treated them as “pro-immigrant†because they would allow workers to cross the border legally. They’ve ignored the actual conditions for immigrants under current guest worker programs, as well as the money and influence trail leading back from these proposals to the corporate lobby, the Essential Worker Immigration Coalition. They have also ignored the Jackson-Lee bill, even though it presents the unprecedented political situation in which the country’s most progressive immigration legislation is being proposed by African-American Congress members.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
I could get behind the Jackson-Lee bill, because, crucially, it avoids the bracero/guest-worker trail of tears. Marc, or anyone, can you give me a reason why I should support McCain-Kennedy over a guest-worker-less bill? Honestly, I’m looking for answers here. Because at the moment I see nothing but huge problems with a guest-worker proposal. Incidentally, that’s why these “xenophobe” accusations are from left field: I’ve never had a problem with amnesty-ish solutions (aside from the fact that they’re insufficient and stopgap, at best).
Here’s a relevant quote from reg’s hometown rag:
“We certainly don’t need more programs that see immigrants just as cheap labor,” says Catherine Tactaquin, director of the National Network for Immigrant and Refugee Rights in Oakland, “that segregate them and treat them as less than equal. Congress isn’t offering real protection for native or foreign-born workers — just a lot of tough talk and guest-worker programs.”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/03/03/EDG7UHHORO1.DTL
March 28th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
“the law that makes it a federal crime for an undocumented worker to hold a job, would be used to force people into the program by making it even more risky to try to work without becoming a guest worker.”
This is essentially going to be the ONLY way that illegal immigration will ever be under control.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:32 pm
Well, Rich, here’s one reason: Out here in the RealWorld, like it or not, you have two choices: McCain-Kennedy or the status-quo-plus a touch of Sensenbrenner. The former is unilkely to become law because it is too liberal for a reactionary House. So “supporting” the Lee bill is just fine if you dont mind empty and impossible gestures — no matter how gallant.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:48 pm
I was actually going to preface with an “aside form the fact that no one’s giving a good goddamn about Jackson-Lee”, but, fine, sarcasm dose swallowed. But seriously, Marc, I know I’m not the only immigrant rights supporter who believes a guest worker program is a disaster for immigrants and non-immigrants alike. I’ll ask again: why not call for a McCain-Kennedy bill with guest-worker program gutted? Convince me a guest-worker program is not going to result in the mess Eleanor cites above and I’d actually believe McCain-Kennedy was something more than a stopgap bone-throw (speaking of “empty gestures”).
I’m being sincere here. Input desired.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
How come on this issue your job appears to be browbeating us into celebrating the piecemeal and the stopgap as peddled by a couple of decrepit, has-been pols when you normally lecture us on your mission as a journalist to simply point to the holes in the dyke and the lack of anyone with enough guts or integrity to step up and try to fill them ?
Incidentally, my understanding of Jacoby’s position is that she’s also against “guest workers” – basically wants to liberalize legal immigration to the extent that just about anybody who wants to come gets in – like a good free-market libertarian. The reason I don’t consider her anything resembling an ally on this issue is my perception that she wouldn’t support increasing sanctions and enforcement to cause any inconvenience to employers who’ve factored a low-wage labor supply into their business plan. Pat Buchanan, whatever one thinks of his crazier proposals like a fence, would actually step up and hit employers with heavier regulation. It may not be politically feasible for the same reason universal health care isn’t feasible in the current Beltway cesspool, but it’s the only way of attacking the part of the problem that – in my view – actually matters. (Should I try to get enthusiastic about “health savings accounts” and caps on malpractice suits because Single Payer is an empty impossible gesture ?) Also, you seem never to address the questions Krugman raised in his recent column – is illegal immigration a depressing factor on wages and does it put an even greater squeeze on social services and schools in places – like L.A. an Oakland – where the systems are already in crisis ? These are real concerns.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:59 pm
As an American who has been trying for some two years to aquire the the
ability to live abroad and NOT getting my permits the recent going ons
with Immigration here have sparked my intrest. below you will find an
article from an ex-pat site about Americans Living in Latin America who
are being told that they are not wanted and that they should go home. I
hope you will keep in mind in the comming months. If other counties
specifically Mexico are not going to embrace Americans that are there why
should they be welcomed here?
http://www.expatfocus.com/index.php?name=Blogs&mode=display&id=321
Americans Marching on Mexico City.
(The Americas Press Agency, March 29, 2006)
Thousands of Americans residents in Mexico marched on Mexico City; and
hundreds more marched on other Latin American capitals to protest what
they perceive to be the unfair treatment they have been receiving in those
countries.
“We cannot work hereâ€, complained John Smith, a resident of Tijuana. “They
tell me: “Mexico is supposed to be for Mexicans.†“I have applied for many
jobs here, at restaurants, and also at factories. I have run out of my
savings and explained to them that I had a family to feed. They were
laughing at me and showed me the door. They said that non-citizens were
not eligible to work here. “You are not a Mexicanâ€, they said. The owner
of the factory got angry at me and screamed on top of his voice- “Yankee,
go homeâ€!
Jane Johnson, a long time resident in San Juan, Costa Rica, has lost her
job with the American company where she had been working for the past four
years. She had been trying to find work with the local company, but was
told that “All the opportunities in our country are for Ticos (Costa
Ricans)â€, and that “Americans are not eligible to work hereâ€, “We do not
hire foreigners!†“What will I do?†complained Jane, “I have no money and
I must go back to my country. These people are racist. They won’t give me
a job. Not even one of themâ€.
Steven Jefferson, a resident in Guatemala City has complained that when he
went to the local hospital he was not able to get free treatment there.
“They said that I actually had to pay for the medical exam. That is
preposterous! I deserve free medical treatment! And how come nobody speaks
English here and there are no signs and brochures in English? English is
the language of the world! How come these people do not speak it?â€
Many Americans were carrying star-spangles banners and singing “Oh, say
can you see…â€
Police with dogs and water cannon, aided by the local immigration
officials with batons and night sticks started dispersing the
demonstrators. There were army trucks nearby and riot troops were called
in. The protests attracted crowds of angry local onlookers many of whom
were chanting “Gringos! Go back to your country!†Some members of the
crowd grabbed the American flags that the protesters were carrying and
started stomping on them. Many hit the Americans while shouting “You
accursed Yankees, get out of our country!†at them.
Robert Ferguson, an American resident in another Latin American city had
this to say: “When I came here with money and stayed at five-star hotels,
they were treating me so nicely, and everybody was so friendly to me and
respectful and all that. I had dates with beautiful ladies. I was like a
king here. When I ran out of money, the people turned into devils. The
smiles just disappeared. They are treating me like a dog now. Nobody will
give me a job. I have been to hundreds of places. Here, if your last name
is not Gomez, Lopez, or Rodriguez, you cannot work anywhere. Nobody will
even consider you. They do not want a poor American, a poor foreigner to
be a burden on their economy. They are so nationalistic and racist! What
can I do? I am starving. Please, American Embassy, take me home! Somebody,
please help! You can send me money by Western Unionâ€.
Jose Rodriguez, a Mexican citizen, has commented- “They come to our
country and they want jobs? But this is our country. They have no right to
be here. They are only guests here. Yankees, go back home! We don’t want
you here! Come with money or get out! We do not need a poor Gringo
competing with the locals! “Mexico is para los Mexicanos!†Viva Mexico!â€
Col. Jorge Perez of the local anti-riot forces had this to say: “We’re
going to get every one of these darn Gringo foreigners, and deport them
within daysâ€. The ones that survive our jails and torture chambers, that
is. We do not like to release cripples; it makes our country look bad. We,
Mexicans, are nice people if you are rich, but don’t you dare come here
and look for work! We don’t like indigents. And also, if you overstay your
visa and are in the country illegally we have special treatment for you.
It will make the Spanish Inquisition look like kids campâ€.
Many arrests were made and reports of beatings, vicious canine attacks,
torture in police dungeons and deportations have reached the US embassy.
The American Ambassador had this comment: ‘They are racists! They do not
want to give our citizens jobs. We are friends and good neighbors. Why are
they doing it? We, Gringos, are so nice to them. We give them all these
factory jobs and then amnesty. I will lodge a protest with the United
Nations tomorrow!â€
Several Americans, severely beaten and chased by angry Latin American
citizens and policemen were banging on the US Embassy’s doors screaming
“Help! They are going to kills us! Help!â€
James Brown, a US worker who had the audacity to look for a job in Mexico,
barely escaped an attack by two German shepherds unleashed on him by the
Mexican police and was now recuperating inside the Embassy compound. “I am
an Americanâ€, he complained. “Mexico is in the Americas just like our
country. They are a nation of immigrants, too. The Indians are originally
from Siberia and then, the Spanish are from Europe. There are so many
people here whose origins are from other countries; people whose ancestors
are Portuguese and French. And Vicente Fox has an English name. I have an
uncle whose last name is Fox. We do not want much here. We just want to
work and build this country and send some money from here to the US. The
ladies are so beautiful, and if you have a little bit of money, the people
are so friendly. So, I just want to work and live here. What’s wrong with
that? But they beat me so bad and they have tortured me. They said that if
I did not pay a bribe, they would not release me. I had ten dollars and I
gave it to them. They let me out, but had set two vicious mutts on me and
they were chasing me all the way to the Embassy. It is all about fairness.
Mexicans come to our country to work. So, we want to go to their country
to work. We want to live in Mexico, make money, have kids and also, get
some medical care. Is that too much to ask for?â€
Some people have also reportedly demonstrated in several American cities
in front of the consulates of Mexico, Guatemala, and Costa Rica chanting:
“Racists! Racists! Human rights for Gringos! Human rights for Americans!â€,
but there has been little press coverage of the event.
Reported by Jose Smith in Mexico City
and John Rodriguez in San Jose, Costa Rica
March 28th, 2006 at 11:08 pm
What a great blog! What a terrific debate! Truly1
March 28th, 2006 at 11:14 pm
[...] The prescription for social justice being sent to the Mexicans (and Salvadorans and Guatemalans and Hondurans) who cannot feed their family is: we stand with you companero. We will even support you in worldwide revolution but, in the meantime, don’t think about coming to the local car wash looking for a job… you might take away my parking place! [...]
March 29th, 2006 at 6:51 am
Mark, you have a way of provocating people, then carry on repeated personal tit-for-tats with them. It’s boring.
March 29th, 2006 at 6:55 am
That would be Mark York.
March 29th, 2006 at 7:48 am
Mark York, if you and the “amateur who handed my business to me,” as you stated, understood the actual situations and that the workers falsely presented themselves as legal citizens rather than “visitors,” then you might not relish in your gloating over me. I believe that the numerous CPAs who seek my advice and the students that I trained would also disagree with you. If you’re going fishing, stick to the kind with scales. This is one area where I’m too far ahead of you.
March 29th, 2006 at 7:54 am
I had to log off last night to watch the Pistons beat the Mavs.
Woody, thanks for your rebuttal…you’ve perfectly in step with the red-faced embarrassed MI GOP that had to face electoral reality. But that POLITICS! Hey, Republicans try to put their pet issues on the ballot for the same reasons. The MI Dems finally fought fire with fire and won this time. Your side lost this one in Michigan. The issue became a matter of purchasing power. Getting money circulating in the economy. No McDonald franchised closed today…and yes there a lot of Michiganders who do speak with a Spanish accent…a significant number of Latinos (Arabs, and many others) choose Michigan because its a fairly progressive state with a high standard of living.
March 29th, 2006 at 8:03 am
Also, reg:
…well said in re African-American attitudes towards immigrants and immigration. Your comments were a bit more insightful than Woody’s inferrence about Asians owning the corner liquor store, to say the least.
March 29th, 2006 at 9:04 am
Rob, I discussed minimum wage laws from an economic standpoint–not political. I’m for what works–not who wins.
On A-A attitudes towards immigrants–I presented a very real world case–not one to be politically correct. In fact, there was quite a discussion on this specific subject in Atlanta after the Asian owner of a liquor store on Old National Highway killed a black man in a robbery attempt. The black community protested against and boycotted the store. The discussions went beyond the instance and expanded into the “taking over” of businesses in black communities by “outsiders.” That is real, not imagined.
Maybe liberals need to hear more of these stories than fewer of them, because it offers the opportunities for communication and resolution rather than anger kept internally.
P.S. The liquor store wasn’t on the corner. It was next to the oil change business on the corner.
March 29th, 2006 at 9:15 am
Either it’s 6 or 7 percent or not? But it’s nice to throw in the “illegals murder us” meme into the fray. That’s perfect. Everyone has an opinion Russell and you’re welcome to yours.
March 29th, 2006 at 9:26 am
“Maybe liberals need to hear more of these stories than fewer of them, because it offers the opportunities for communication and resolution rather than anger kept internally.”
Woody, thank you for your Oprahfication of this thread. It’s going to make us all better people.
March 29th, 2006 at 9:48 am
reg, this may be unbelievable, but I’ve never watched Oprah. Do you think, rather, that she’s copying me?
Next, we’ll discuss who is the real father of the Mexican child on Jerry Springer. It should make for some good chair throwing.
I’m glad that you’re a better person. I didn’t know it was possible.
March 29th, 2006 at 9:56 am
“Do you think, rather, that she’s copying me?”
I’m pretty sure Dr. Phil is a carbon copy that Oprah came up with in her cloning labs.
March 29th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
Mark A. York Says:
“NAFTA was supposed to keep businesses IN Mexico, but then the wages were so low that this was self-defeating. Emigration is a safety valve for a gaping wound.”
Sorry, Mark, but the reason NAFTA has been such a failure for Mexican workers isn’t because the wages being paid in Mexico were too low. When NAFTA was finally implemented in Mexico, there was a huge influx of U.S. corporations into Mexico, eager to take advantage of the lower wages and less restrictive working conditions. These U.S. companies built factories that provided good paying jobs by Mexican standards. Of course, this came at the expense of U.S. workers, as more and more U.S. companies shifted their operations from the U.S. to Mexico, shuttering factories here and tossing hundreds of thousands of U.S. workers into unemployment. It was boom times in many Mexican border towns as U.S. companies provided more and more opportunities for Mexicans desperate for decent jobs.
Unfortunately, these boom times were short lived, as globalization and U.S. trade policies towards China soon changed the equation. Just as the U.S. companies readily abandoned U.S. workers for Mexico in search of lower production costs, they soon abandoned Mexican workers for even cheaper workers in China. The result has been that many of those Mexican boom towns are now nearly ghost towns, as the corporations continue to chase cheaper labor costs across the globe. What looked like the salvation of Mexico has turned into the same sad affair we see here in the U.S., as the few good paying Mexican jobs are now being outsourced to China. Just as trade policy has doomed working people in the United States to a downward spiral as we compete with the rest of the world in a race to the bottom for low wages, the same sad tale is now playing itself out in Mexico.
Immigration is not a safety valve for a gaping wound… Immigration is a mechanism by which humans better themselves. Whether it’s for food, natural resources, or in this case, jobs, human beings will always relocate to where better opportunities abound. Our very nation was founded by people who risked everything, in the hope of finding better opportunities than they had back on the old country. Nothing has changed. I’m sure most folks, if faced with the reality of watching their children suffer from grinding poverty vs. providing a better life by finding work in a foreign land, would opt to immigrate, even if it meant entering a country illegally. There wouldn’t be a United States of America if that weren’t true. I’m sure many native born Americans would be shocked to learn that it’s quite likely their ancestors entered this country illegally themselves.
Most of this immigration debate is nothing more than a diversion, pandering to our xenophobic tendencies, intended to distract us from the true sources of our problems. The fact that this debate has suddenly erupted as a major issue when it was all but ignored over the past six years, suggests that the issue is really about the desperation of the G.O.P. to distract voters from the very real failures of the Bush administration and it’s lap dog Congress. Does anyone honestly believe that Congress would even be talking about immigration if we didn’t have elections coming up in November?
The biggest threat to working people here isn’t the influx of illegal immigrants. (After all, the vast majority of the jobs taken by illegals are the lowest wage menial jobs that are usually the domain of unskilled and disadvantaged folks with no other options.) The real threat is the trade policies of the United States, which favor corporate profits over the needs of working people, and the corporate whores in the Senate and the Congress who have no problem professing devotion to the American dream while they sell out that very dream to the lowest bidder.
That’s not to say that there aren’t very real immigration issues that need to be addressed, but this idea that we have reached a crisis of such proportions that we have to turn 12 million people into felons, break up families as we attempt an obviously impossible mass deportation, and build our own version of the Berlin wall on our borders is absurd. I would expect this kind of rhetoric from a fascist dictatorship, not the United States of America. (Is it just me, or is the United States becoming more like the old Soviet Union every day?) Are there problems that need to be addressed? Of course! Are the problems such a crisis that we need to take immediate draconian measures? Not in the slightest.
The sad truth is, scapegoating immigrants is practically an American tradition, usually rearing it’s ugly head when those in power need to distract the nation from their incompetence and corruption. Going after powerless and disadvantaged people is an easy way for politicians to appear like they are “doing something.” It’s also an effective wedge issue, used to divide the citizenry, effectively stifling the debate about other issues which those in power would rather we all forget. (Hmm, I wonder what the Republicans would rather we not focus on instead of immigration? Any guesses?) Although this debate does have some merits, for the most part it reeks of bigotry and crass political opportunism. It’s shameful and a sad statement on the current affairs of our nation.
March 29th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
The wages were still lower than what is paid here which was my point you passed on by in order to get the the Iraq diversionary hypothesis.
“I’m sure many native born Americans would be shocked to learn that it’s quite likely their ancestors entered this country illegally themselves.”
Nope. Not at my house.
March 29th, 2006 at 1:54 pm
“The biggest threat to working people here isn’t the influx of illegal immigrants. (After all, the vast majority of the jobs taken by illegals are the lowest wage menial jobs that are usually the domain of unskilled and disadvantaged folks with no other options.) The real threat is the trade policies of the United States, which favor corporate profits over the needs of working people, and the corporate whores in the Senate and the Congress who have no problem professing devotion to the American dream while they sell out that very dream to the lowest bidder.”
BorntoBurn,
I’m scalding hot already–just thinking about the lack of logic of your conclusion.
So by allowing them to flee their own country, it also allows for the perpetuation of economic exploitation, because their is no incentive for their native country to change–consequently the U.S. becomes a SAFETY VALVE !
So tell me how U.S. trade policies will change–by saying pretty please?
Do fairytales come true?
March 29th, 2006 at 2:12 pm
Mark A. York Says:
“The wages were still lower than what is paid here which was my point you passed on by in order to get the the Iraq diversionary hypothesis.
“I’m sure many native born Americans would be shocked to learn that it’s quite likely their ancestors entered this country illegally themselves.â€
Nope. Not at my house.”
Ah, Mark, once again you demonstrate your limited grasp of a complicated issue. Please, allow me to clarify a few things for you…
Although it’s true that the wages are/were lower in U.S. factories operating in Mexico, you fail to recognize that the cost of living is much, much lower in Mexico, a fact that gringo tourists like myself often take advantage of. Although a Mexican factory worker wasn’t making as much as his U.S. counterpart, he was still earning much more than a typical Mexican peasant, allowing his family a standard of living unthinkable before NAFTA came along to provide that job. With the NAFTA job, this worker had no reason to leave his home and family, no reason to risk life and limb to illegally enter the U.S., no reason to live like a fugitive while working back breaking menial jobs for low wages. Sure, this worker could make even more money in the U.S., but why go through such an ordeal if you could land a job that still provided well for his family in Mexico? When the NAFTA jobs appeared in Mexico, they lifted thousands of Mexicans out of poverty and were providing a better future for their families… until China pulled the rug out from under them.
The issue is not that the NAFTA jobs didn’t pay enough. They did. It’s that the NAFTA jobs were outsourced to China. That was the point I was trying to make in response to your rather simplistic analysis of NAFTA’s impact on Mexico. You really need to try thinking a little harder, Mark.
Also, I find it rather amusing when you said, “…which was my point you passed on by in order to get the the Iraq diversionary hypothesis.” Hmm… I’ve reread my original post several times, yet I don’t find any mention at all of Iraq. Your projection of Iraq into my original post says more about your doubts and insecurities than any supposed hypothesis on my part. Why so defensive?
Finally, I’m glad to hear that your ancestors arrived legally in the United States. (At least, that’s the impression I get from your response.) I guess that means that your family arrived here recently enough that you know Grandpa York landed on these shores with all his paperwork in order. You do know that for a fact, right? I mean, you aren’t just assuming that Grandpa York was legal, right? You know what happens when one assumes…
As for me, I can’t say for sure. I’ve traced my family back to the early 1800′s, but actual knowledge of when the original Grandpa BornToBurn first stepped on U.S. soil seems forever lost to my family. Whether or not Gramps entered the country with the full blessing of the U.S. government, or merely stepped off the boat and blended into the crowd like the millions of other new arrivals to the New World have done for hundreds of years, I can only guess.
The point is, unless you know for a fact that your ancestors arrived here in full compliance with U.S. immigration laws, you would be pretty hard pressed to be certain if your ancestors originally came to this country legally or not. Many native born Americans are in fact descendants of illegal immigrants, they just aren’t aware of it. It only takes a few generations before Grampa’s origins, let alone his immigration status, are long forgotten.
March 29th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
“The issue is not that the NAFTA jobs didn’t pay enough. They did. It’s that the NAFTA jobs were outsourced to China.”
I’m not entirely convinced this is an accurate assessment of the mid/late-90′s Mexican economic situation (i.e., post-NAFTA, pre-China-outsourcing). It will take someone with much more knowledge of Mexican/Latin American economics to pinpoint the reasons why, but I am fairly certain that large sectors of the Mexican economy were in worse shape as a direct result of NAFTA. While Mexican wages certainly grew in the northern border states, I know for a fact that this was not the case in large chunks of the central and southern parts of Mexico.
With all due respect, BtB, I’m finding your post-NAFTA analysis of Mexico similarly simplistic.
March 29th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
kjellberg Says:
“BorntoBurn,
I’m scalding hot already–just thinking about the lack of logic of your conclusion.
So by allowing them to flee their own country, it also allows for the perpetuation of economic exploitation, because their is no incentive for their native country to change–consequently the U.S. becomes a SAFETY VALVE !
So tell me how U.S. trade policies will change–by saying pretty please?
Do fairytales come true?”
——————————
Simmer down, kjellberg. I don’t want you to injure yourself. Sorry to hear that my supposed lack of logic is causing you such dismay. Perhaps I could have helped you diffuse your scalding hot anger had you actually bothered to explain what it is about my logic that doesn’t compute with you.
Your rant about the perpetuation of economic exploitation making the U.S a safety valve has some merit, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my contention that U.S. trade policy is far more threatening to U.S. workers than immigration issues, nor does it address my point that this issue is more political grandstanding by the G.O.P. then it is an actual crisis that merits immediate draconian measures. If you want to debate those points, I’m all ears.
I’m a bit perplexed by your last two questions:
“So tell me how U.S. trade policies will change–by saying pretty please?”
“Do fairytales come true?”
Perhaps your scalding hot anger led you to ask such silly questions. (Excessive heat can be rather detrimental to mental function.) If you look back at my original post, I merely mentioned that U.S. policy was the problem, but I didn’t even approach the topic of how to change them. If you need an explanation on how to change U.S. policy, may I suggest you check out School House Rock. They have several episodes that will explain the process for you… oh, and regarding fairy tales, no, they don’t come true. Just ask Francis Fukuyama.
March 29th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
Rich,
You are quite correct… my post NAFTA analysis was insanely simplistic. You fail to understand that the analysis was aimed at the simplistic Mark A. York, whose prior posts speak for themselves as to his level of understanding.
The intent of my original post was to merely point out to Mark that his contention that NAFTA jobs were self defeating because they didn’t pay enough was flat out wrong… sheer fantasy on his part. The reason NAFTA failed Mexican workers wasn’t because the NAFTA jobs didn’t pay enough, it was because these new NAFTA jobs suddenly had to compete with China, a battle they ultimately have lost. Mexicans didn’t leave thier NAFTA jobs, their NAFTA jobs left them. Comprende?
Did NAFTA as a whole have a negative impact on Mexico? Absolutely. But we weren’t talking about that. We were talking about NAFTA jobs created when U.S. companies relocated operations to Mexico in pursuit of lower production costs, only to abandon Mexico when lower costs could be obtained in China. A very narrow slice of the NAFTA pie, but the very slice we were discussing.
The crappy condition of the Mexican economy, although important, has no bearing on the precise point I was discussing, which was that the real enemy of American workers is not illegal immigration, but rather the outsourcing of our jobs to overseas competitors thanks to U.S. trade policies. In other words, when it comes to your job, you have more to fear from corporate and governent policies than you do from some illegal immigrant. This sudden uproar over immigration on the part of the G.O.P. is all just political grandstanding, a desperate attempt to deflect attention away from the many troubles inflicting the Republican party these days.
March 29th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
BORNTOBURN–actually you might be sufferring from excessive heat–I previously posted the essay below which details our failed FREE TRADE POLICIES–and as for Fukuyama go f–K
your mama!
WHO’S RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS MESS!
The Reagan/Bush administration had taken the first steps to initiate NAFTA, but it was Clinton in 1993 that signed sealed and delivered it with Al Gore’s help. Instead of trying to push through a universal healthcare system Clinton/Gore aligned with big business to do a number on the working-class. Clinton may have gotten impeached for having fellatio with Monica Lewinsky; but he should have been impeached for SCREWING THE AMERICAN WORKER!
AMERICAN WORKERS ARE INTERESTED IN REAL VALUES! We need to have Democrats who DEFINITIVELY TELL US THEIR POSITION ON IRAQ; OUTSOURCING: HEALTHCARE; EDUCATION; POVERTY; CIVIL LIBERTIES: CIVIL RIGHTS: WOMEN’S RIGHTS; CORRUPT LOBBYISTS; AND CORRUPT ELECTED OFFICIALS; etc…
The Bush/Republican and Clinton/Democratic administration constructed an agreement with the wealthy and the powerful to create a NEW SOCIAL CONTRACT—one that globally excluded the working-class and poor.
OFFSHORE OUTSOURCING—WHAT IS IT?
879,280 U.S. JOBS WERE LOST FROM OURSOURCING: 1993 – 2002
Proponents of Free Trade Agreements frequently claimed that such deals create jobs and raise incomes in the United States. These claims are based only on the positive effects of exports (known as “export effectsâ€), ignoring the negative effects of imports (known as “import effectsâ€). Such arguments are an attempt to hide the NEGATIVE costs of new trade deals in order to boost the reported benefits.
The problem with these claims is that they misrepresent the real effects of trade on the U.S. economy– trade both creates and destroys jobs. Increases in U.S. exports tend to create jobs in this country, but increases in imports tend to reduce jobs by displacing goods that otherwise would have been made in the United States by domestic workers. Ignoring imports and counting only exports is like balancing a checkbook by counting only deposits but not withdrawals.
We are losing all manufacturing jobs –-THE ONES THAT HAD SOCIAL CONTRACTS—the ones with good hourly salaries, benefits and job security. These same jobs are being replaced with lower paying positions and no benefits. Why you might ask, because we are all becoming citizens of the world. PROFITS ARE THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS! Workers are losing their bargaining power as corporations dismantle unions and replace them with outsourced jobs.
OFFSHORE OUTSOURCING
Offshore Outsourcing and Foreign Worker programs are devastating the U.S. working-class. The IT workforce is especially affected by offshore outsourcing, because much of this technology, research and development are taking place offshore. In the worst case scenario, outsourcing technology could even place our nation at risk. Imagine if all digital technology was developed and controlled offshore? Who needs a conventional military attack if you can control and manipulate all digital transactions—WE’VE created a technological Neutron Time Bomb!
American companies can save large amounts of money by building and or/documenting products in low-wage countries and then selling them right back to the U.S. Not only are manufacturing products sold back to the U.S. after the labor is outsourced; but so are computer software programs, websites, and other goods and services. We’re no longer talking about rubber dogs from Taiwan—we are talking about software/programs that control Key business processes in the U.S.—even defense related technologies.
WHEN DOES GREED BECOME TRAITOROUS?
Millions of workers are being sold-out by our government
U.S. based defense contractors “sub-out†work to companies in offshore nations. There is no way to track this kind of electronic activity. But it seems that U.S. security is no longer an issue as long as businesses do not have to pay an American IT worker $50.00 per hour; when he can pay a worker at an Indian firm $6.00 per hour. Some of this “sub-out†work could be sensitive in nature, with descriptive details about combat systems. In the world of national defense, we are often told by politicians that we must plan for all possibilities. Isn’t that why our government implemented the Patriot Act? Our elected leaders are permitting warrantless domestic surveillance of innocent U.S. citizens, but don’t seem to care that greedy corporate CEOS undermine our national security.
FOREIGN WORKER/ IMMIGRATION
Businesses have been taking advantage of H-1B and L-1 Workers programs. The H-1B visa program allows American companies and universities to import foreign scientists, engineers and programmers. This is known as “sponsoring,†where a company or educational institution can appeal on the foreign workers behalf to the U.S. Government for legal rights to work here for a specific period. The L-1 Visa is available to Intra-company Transferees who have been employed outside of the U.S. for at least one of the prior three years. L-1 Visas poses no limits to immigrant workers who come to the U.S. and replace American Workers.
THE FINANCIAL ADVANTAGE TO COMPANIES IS THAT THEY DO NOT PAY THE FOREIGN WORKER THE PREVAILING U.S. WAGE; BUT INSTEAD, A LOWER SALARY OR HOURLY RATE. THIS IS WRITTEN IN THE FOREIGN WORKERS’ SPONSORSHIP AGREEMENT. So American Workers will train their foreign replacement, who will work in the U.S. using a visa and get paid at a much lower rate doing the same job!
CORRUPT GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS, CAUSED BY CROOKED LOBBYLISTS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR DESTROYING THE AMERICAN WORKING-CLASS!
The public is told that offshore outsourcing frees up labor that can be redeployed—but does not make sense to a U.S. worker who has been laid off and can’t find another job?
RECENT REPORTS INDICATE THAT BY 2015 the acceleration of outsourcing will result in 3.3 MILLION AMERICAN JOBS MOVING OFFSHORE.
The total tax loss over the next five years because of outsourcing comes to 13 BILLION DOLLARS—7.5 BILLION IN LOST SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE REVENUE, 4.4 BILLION IN FEDERAL REVENUE AND 1.5 BILLION IN STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT TAXES. IS THIS WHY BUSH WANTED TO TAMPER WITH SOCIAL SECURITY—HIS CORPORATE BUDDIES CAUSED THE DEPLETION OF SOCIAL SECURITY REVENUES, BY OUTSOURCING AMERICAN JOBS, AND THEN HE WANTS TO FORCE THE AMERICAN WORKER TO PAY FOR CORPORATE GREED.
60,000 AUTO WORKERS DRIVEN OUT OF JOBS
General Motors’ plans to eliminate an additional 30,000 hourly jobs by 2008, it will have devastating consequences for cities in the United States and Canada; its ripple effects will hit working class communities throughout the two countries. The closure of twelve facilities will reduce the auto maker’s manufacturing jobs in North America by nearly a third.
Taken together with hourly and salaried job cuts already announced this year by GM, Ford and the auto parts makers Delphi and Visteon, this will bring the total number of auto jobs targeted for destruction to 60,000, and this does not take into account the impact of Ford’s downsizing plan. The number two US auto maker has made clear that it intends to eliminate thousands of jobs and permanently close a number of factories.
Since 2000, more than 100,000 hourly and salaried automotive jobs have been eliminated in the US. The latest GM cuts are part of a longer-term trend in which corporations have wiped out jobs that once provided a relatively stable livelihood for manufacturing workers. Through major struggles in the 1930s and into the post-war period, workers were able to win concessions in pay and benefits. This was particularly the case in the auto industry; however, outsourcing has eliminated workers’ power to bargain and has destroyed the SOCIAL CONTRACT that upheld laws and regulations that prevented exploitation.
THE SOCIAL CONTRACT HAS BEEN REPLACED BY GLOBALIZATION—IN OTHER WORDS, THE CORPORATOCRACY SAYS THAT THE WORLD IS FLAT, AND YOU ARE NOW A CITIZEN OF THE WORLD.
THE SNEAKY FOX HIDES BEHIND A BIG BUSH
Mexican immigration to the U.S. helps MEXICO’S WHITE ELITE stay in power. The white Mexican elite are determined to keep as many of their poorer, darker-skinned countrymen heading north.
The emigration SAFTEY VALVE has been a clever policy adapted by Fox—to ensure the current status quo remains.
Vicente Fox talks frequently about improving Mexico’s economy; while his real priority is to increase the emigration “safety valve.â€
Bush encourages this kind of thinking by spouting such meaningless, pseudo-humanitarianism nonsense as “Family values don’t stop at the Rio Grande.â€
If Bush was really serious about helping Mexico, the first thing he should do is help Mexicans break their self-defeating addiction to the emigration safety valve. But that would mean doing away with the corrupt Mexican oligarchy—something that will never happen; since this corrupt Mexican government is continually propped up by the Bush administration.
VIVA BUSH
March 29th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
Eleanore kjellberg Says:
March 29th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
BORNTOBURN–actually you might be sufferring from excessive heat–I previously posted the essay below which details our failed FREE TRADE POLICIES–and as for Fukuyama go f–K
your mama!
Eleanore… what is your problem? Are you so dim as to not understand that you and I are both saying practically the same thing? The bigger problem for American workers is our trade policies, not the immigrants. Maybe if you simmered down a bit and actually read my posts, you might realize we essentially agree, at least as far as trade policy is concerned. Geez.
FYI: You might consider posting your own thoughts and ideas instead of cutting and pasting work authored by somebody else, as you seem want to do. Don’t you have any thoughts of your own you wish to contribute, other than telling people to go f-k their mothers? You are so classy. Momma must be proud.
March 29th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
“You do know that for a fact, right? I mean, you aren’t just assuming that Grandpa York was legal, right? You know what happens when one assumes…”
Fucking A I do. Try grandpa Colburn in 1635 on the Defence.
Apparently you haven’t seen this before?
http://www.genealogy.com/genealogy/users/y/o/r/Mark-a-York/index.html
I’m not a NAFTA defender by any reckoning. I would bet not all who wanted to work in the border factories did so. Nothing is ever all inclusive for everyone. Since the illegal immigration rate rose right through this period, your little hypothesis fails the scratch test. Dig deeper.
March 29th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
I continue to agree with Rich. The stories I’ve read on the towns who send the most north are southern and central Mexico residents.
March 29th, 2006 at 5:12 pm
BORNTOBURN–CUT AND PASTE IS NOT A WASTE, IF IT STATES THE FACTS AND SPREADS THE WORD IN HASTE!
YOU TALK LEFT WHEN IT COMES TO POLICIES OF FREE TRADE, BUT YOUR ANSWER TO THE PROBLEM, IS TO TAKE OUR SALAREIS TO LOWER LEVELS AND FURTHER THEIR DEGRADE!
March 29th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
Incidentally, Marc, there is a difference between advocacy journalism and opinion journalism.
March 29th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
Mark A. York,
Congratulations on discovering your relation to Reuben Colburn. I’m sure you are rightfully proud of your heritage. However, it still doesn’t negate my point that most Americans really have no idea what the immigration status of their forbearers was, and therefore it’s a bit hazardous for anyone to assume that their family originally came to this country legally without some kind of definitive proof of their status.
Regarding NAFTA, I have not been defending it. NAFTA has been a disaster for working people on both sides of the border. I’ve merely been pointing out that your assumption that the jobs created by NAFTA in Mexico didn’t work because they didn’t pay enough was erroneous. The NAFTA jobs didn’t work out because they couldn’t compete with China. Period. Once the U.S. companies realized they could get a better deal in China, they dumped their Mexican operations, just as they did in the U.S. when they originally moved to Mexico.
How inclusive the NAFTA jobs were, the impact NAFTA had on Mexico nation wide, how many illegals entered the U.S. at the height of NAFTA, or the geographic locations of Mexico that originate the most illegal aliens is completely besides the point. If you can’t understand these distinctions, there is really no point in discussing this further, as you don’t seem capable of sticking to the original topic.
NAFTA jobs were killed in Mexico by being outsourced to China, not because they didn’t pay enough. Mexicans didn’t walk away from their NAFTA jobs, their NAFTA jobs were outsourced from under them. The few NAFTA jobs that still remain in Mexico are those who do not have effective Asian competitors or those who are willing to undercut their Asian competitors… which results in jobs that are far less attractive to those willing to risk entering the U.S. illegally. Mexicans, like most people in North America, don’t want to work for Chinese wages.
Is this really too hard for you to understand?
March 29th, 2006 at 6:39 pm
Eleanore,
I stand corrected. Your witty reply proves that you aren’t so dim after all. However, I’m still not sure what your beef is with my comments. Your aversion to my “answer to the problem” is rather vexing, as I haven’t offered up any solutions. If I come up with with a solution, I’ll be sure to let you know.
March 29th, 2006 at 6:50 pm
OK. wow. This ball sure is rolling.
I GOT SOME GOOD POINTS HERE
I’ll continue my numbered format : )
1. I am also an alien (not green though), my family came here from germany 22 years ago. I was a just boy. The thing is… we came here LEGALLY, and earned our citizinship. We didn’t jump over everyone to come in illegally and polute our new land.
2. There are millions that would love the opportunity to come to america. However, there is a freaking line. Nobody likes the guy cutting in line, especially for something so big. So think about that guy cutting in line turns into millions, and then those millions bring more millions along with them, all in front of the people waiting their turn. F that
3. I am not a freaking racist, to whover started that comment. I’m a white german american. Two of my best friends are black, and one mexican. We’ve been friends for 15 years.
4. I read something about blacks and immigration above. Here’s what I think… we “americans” brought them here. They didn’t jump over a fence by the millions. They are part of america and it’s foundation.
5. I have nothing against immigrants. Only the illegal ones. No matter what color. I mean… I don’t think the majority of people are racist against color. They’re racist against traits and know behavior that exist within races. If you took 5 blacks, 5 whites, 5 mexicans, 5 asians, and so on, raised them all together on a secluded island unpoluted from the rest of the world, do you think the’d be racist? But if you take all of those same groups, and raise them separately, in different levels of civilization, environments (dirty,clean), and then suddenly stick them all together… then what would happen?
6. I don’t know how many of you are from AZ, but we have it the worst. We get the illegals from EVERYWHERE. And it seems 99% are mexicans. So yes… when your dealing with hundreds per square mile, it gets to you. I mean come on… over this last few months, news tv showed so many homes that were busted with dozens and dozens of mexicans in one house. That’s discusting.
7. It’s not the damn color folks. It’s the culture and the problems they bring and cause. Example… if you HAD to choose between 5 million asians and 5 million mexicans, who would you pick? Me… knowing how raw mexicans are… I don’t even need to know anything else about the asians (and I don’t), I would pick the asians. Why…? Because I see how mexicans have developed into, and I’m sorry… “a dirty (messy), careless, and dangerous culture. They are turning arizona streets into mexico. I’m not joking or talking out of my ass. Come here and see.
8. There are probably thousands of reasons to get them out, but are no reasons, that I can think of, to keep them here.
9. I come back to the direction of this energy. All of these tens of millions of people invilved in this immigration thing should redirect this energy to the problem origins, their own country. Especially the illegals. Damn them. Why should we care about them and their disregard to others.
10. Last one… if any direct immigrant mexicans came here, obsorbed the way we live (in our land), and respect our CLEANER and more ORGANIZED way of life, then maybe this wouldn’t be such a hot topic. Stop making your new invaded land look so much like home. Makes me think bad things. Like “take your shit, and get the F out.”
OK… good luck to us all.
March 29th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
“NAFTA jobs were killed in Mexico by being outsourced to China, not because they didn’t pay enough.”
Did they move auto parts plants to China? MY point that you continue to miss is immigration increased regardless of the NAFTA temporary boom. They still came anyway from the south not the border towns.
“Mexicans didn’t walk away from their NAFTA jobs, their NAFTA jobs were outsourced from under them.”
Gee ya think? Who said they walked away? I’m saying most didn’t get them in the first place because that’s what the data shows. They continued to come here simultaneously, as the handful worked the new jobs in Mexico. Are you really this dense or just another troll with an agenda?
Bill an advocate has a dog in the fight. That’s the difference between the two venues.
March 29th, 2006 at 7:36 pm
“The crappy condition of the Mexican economy, although important, has no bearing on the precise point I was discussing, which was that the real enemy of American workers is not illegal immigration, but rather the outsourcing of our jobs to overseas competitors thanks to U.S. trade policies. In other words, when it comes to your job, you have more to fear from corporate and governent policies than you do from some illegal immigrant. This sudden uproar over immigration on the part of the G.O.P. is all just political grandstanding, a desperate attempt to deflect attention away from the many troubles inflicting the Republican party these days. ”
BORNTOBURN–I consider CHEAP LABOR gleaned from illegal immigration a form of outsourcing.
These illegal immigrants are only to willing to take jobs at a lower wage and undercut the fair and living wage that other workers were previously paid.
The job goes to the LOWEST BIDDER! Illegal immigration screws the American working-class. That’s why I object to it!!!
It is meant to benefit the “bosses”–that’s why so many politicians are in favor of the “guest-worker program”–businesses wants CHEAP LABOR. IT’S ALL ABOUT PROFIT!
If the U.S. was really concerned about humanitarian issues and democracy they would abolish dictatorial regimes rather than support them.
Our goverment supports other corrupt governments, and then they want the U.S. working-class to pay the price!
March 29th, 2006 at 7:41 pm
Arizona that’s a cold outlook. I used to live in Apache Junction and Mesa and I didn’t really see the things you cite. It’s been awhile since I’ve been there though. There are differences between cultures. Often all we see is what’s at the bottom since it’s just easier to see it. Diapers in the creek is one of those things. Values that allow such behavior are undesirable wherever they are found.
March 29th, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Eleanore,yes.
March 29th, 2006 at 8:57 pm
Arizonan,
Have you not already read –
There presently is NO LEGAL WAY for the majority of people to enter this country legally. THERE IS NO LINE!!!!!!! People keep saying that they should get in line but there is not one. The only option available to you to immigrate to the US is the Visa Lottery. This is a random system where the INS selects from a list of hundreds of millions of applicants and selects a few for a green card. The only other way to stay here is to marry a US citizen. I don’t have anything against you folks that keep saying your ancestors waited in line 20 or 30 years ago and migrated here, but apparently major SHIT has changed since then. Call INS yourself and then call these folks and show them where the hell the line is.
P.S. Having 2 black ‘best friends’ doesn’t make you any less a racist than being ‘married’ to a woman makes you a heterosexual. It can be for show dumbass!
March 29th, 2006 at 11:00 pm
MARY ~ Can you email me ? I would like to speak directly with you.
nowisthetime AT mchsi DOT com
Thanks.
March 29th, 2006 at 11:02 pm
Arizonan~ you are the biggest RACIST prick
Get real, you are not a racist?
LOL, go back and read what YOU wrote asshole.
March 30th, 2006 at 7:47 am
Hi!
I have read some of the reactions here, but let me write my own. First of all, not all of the undocumented immigrants are mexicans or latino! Many of them are educated europeans-polish, russian, czech, slovaks, bulgarians etc, etc.
First: I would like to react to the matter of “undocumented immigrants taking jobs to americans, or legal immigrants” I am sorry to say that is not the case! I myself speak, write and read in 5 languages (english included) and work as an interpreter, translator. Do you really think any of the americans would do the job? My position requires such a knowledge and skills! Are you sure I am taking a work place to any of the americans? I don’t think so… A lot of undocumented work at the construction sites, women are cleaning the houses for americans, or are working as caregivers for elderly. These people work 12 hours a day for what they think is a decent salary for them. They have no clue how much money are americans making! They just think they are making a little bit more, but they know for sure, that americans would not take their job!
Second: As far as I know the “original americans” are Indian americans! Isn’t that right? So all of the others are imigrants! Please look up you history and find out where is your origin, your heritage from! America is based on immigration since the very beginning!
Third: My great-grandfather is born american. His parents decided to return to their home Country when he was a little kid ( he was born in 1912). Basically my grandmother is american- a child of an american citizen, my mother same thing…including me……but it is not truth because the immigration system says you have to be sponsored by you family member in order to become legal resident, and later in 5 years you can apply for an american citizenship. Basically, I am american as you are, because my heritage says so, you were lucky you great-grandparents stayed here, my left for Europe, so I am now undocumented.
Fourth: Where I work, I work with undocumented and believe me, they do pay taxes! As I do, my friends do, my clients do! And for what? They can not apply for unemployment benefits, they can not use medicare, they can not get retirement from what they have paid to the government. They just pay, because they feel it’s right.
Fifth: Wht are you against the immigration reform? I just don’t get it. It will be imposible for US to deport all of the undocumented! They will stay right there where they already are! Massive deportation is impossible in those number, who would pay for it? Rather vote for the reform and America will make a lot of money on it. Count with me….let’s say $2,000 for each person in penalty (how many undocumented? 11.5 mil? take a calculator…) Immigration fees to become documented ( Application will cost minnimum of $100 for each person!), lawyer’s fees, and then make paying taxes mandatory. If only 1/4 of the undocumented is paying taxes now, and the rest of them will pay only $100 in taxes please count how much will US make on it! Then count how many people will go to college to finish their degree, how many of them will fly home to see their family after decates they have spent here….another way to profit from the reform. Please, look at it from the other side, undocumented love America as much as you do, they will do no harm to it, but America will certainly profit from legalizing them.
March 30th, 2006 at 8:26 am
Mark A. York,
It’s rather amusing that you accuse me of being a troll with an agenda, when it’s very clear that can’t admit your assertion about NAFTA jobs not working because they didn’t pay enough was just baloney you pulled from you ass. You consistantly reply with other points about NAFTA and it’s impact, or lack thereof, on immigration, which I grant you are all valid points, but the fact still remains that you pulled a boner when proclaimed to the world that NAFTA jobs didn’t work because they didn’t pay enough. Despite all your attempts to skate around that particular point, you have never addressed your error. Obviously, admitting you were wrong about one single issue is not something you have the cajones to own up to.
Perhaps you are having difficulty parsing out the issue, so I’ll make it as easy for you as possible, with this simple true or false question:
Is this statement by Mark A. York true or false? “NAFTA was supposed to keep businesses IN Mexico, but then the wages were so low that this was self-defeating.”
If the statement is true, then I stand corrected, however I have yet to hear one argument from you that would support that claim. If it’s false, then it’s very clear that you made an error. Hey, we are all human.
Please don’t bother replying with a bunch of other points that have nothing to do with this question. My intent with my original post was to point out the error of your statement, and all other points about NAFTA, valid or not, are besides the point. Your original statement is either true or false. Which is it? Do you have the guts to admit you had that one wrong? I’m inclined to doubt it.
March 30th, 2006 at 8:59 am
I stand by the statement because it’s correct on its face. They came regardless of the low wage factory jobs. They were low wage compared to similar jobs here so really it’s irrelevant if they stayed or left. You are adding another aspect that is also true, albeit not as all-encompassing as you claim. Further you launched immediately into ad hominem calling me the simpleton. You’re an asshole and nothing more. Some are bigger than others from passing falsehoods truimpeted as facts.
March 30th, 2006 at 11:01 am
Mark A. York,
Ah, did I hurt your feelings because I dared to call you simple in your reasoning? Boo-Hoo. The fact that you continue to stand by your false claim pretty much proves my point. Simple, indeed. If you can’t handle honest debate, perhaps you should find a less challenging past time.
Calling me an asshole for daring to challenge your assumptions brings great honor to your name. You sure put me in my place, by golly. I’m sure Reuben Colburn is very proud of your accomplishment.
March 30th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Reuben Colburn died in 1818. He’s never heard of me, but I’m the guy and ggggggg-grandson responsible for his new historic site so others will hear of him and his very American accomplishments. My accomplishment is recorded at the US Dept. of Interior. Where do we find yours?
http://tinyurl.com/l5gax
Hint: just because you claim my statement is false doesn’t make it so. You haven’t provwen it is by irrelevant conclusion fallacy. It’s opinion. Everyone has one like the aforementioned body part.
March 30th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Ah, Mark A. York, you are quite the disappointment. You are rightfully proud of your ancestry, and your web site dedicated to him is a wonderful gesture, however, I don’t give a damn about it, as I’m sure most Americans don’t give a f-k either. Evidently, the Park service shares my opinion. Try again.
Trying to imply that you are somehow superior because of your website is on par with, “My dad can beat up your dad.” You’ve got a long way to live up to Reuben’s stature. Pathetic.
You are correct that just because I say something is true doesn’t make it so. Same goes for you, pal. At least I tried to engage you in an honest debate and presented you with some actual reasoning behind my opinion, something that you didn’t seem to have the capability of doing for yourself. You excelled at obsfucating the issue I called you on, but you never really proved anything… you just weren’t up to the challenge… so I guess that leaves us at an impasse. We will just have to agree to disagree, as this asshole has grown weary of debating a brick wall. Troll on.
March 30th, 2006 at 12:52 pm
Eleanore,
It would seem that you and I are much closer to agreeing than not. I share your opinion that illegal immigration has a negative impact on the American working class. All you have to do is look at the construction trades and the meat packing industries for classic examples of how illegal immigration can destroy the wages of jobs that used to provide living wages for their workers. (The near destruction of the labor unions in those industries hasn’t helped much either.)
We both agree that the government’s support of providing cheap labor for business through illegal immigration is absolutely outrageous. Face it, the government has all but abandoned working people in this country in favor of corporate profits. Politicians know who butters their bread, and it certainly isn’t the working folks in this country. Until working people stop voting against their own best interests, things will only continue to deteriorate for working people here.
We also agree that our government’s support of despotic regimes in exchange for narrow self interests is beyond hypocritical… but let’s be honest… the United States has pretty much just played lip service to democracy and human rights in other countries, playing that card only when it serves our interests, ignoring it when we wish to do business with a despotic regime. (Saddam Hussein is a classic example.) Without major reform of our government, these policies will never change and working people here will continue to suffer.
The point where we diverge in our opinions is what has a worse impact on working people, illegal immigration or outsourcing of jobs. I contend that outsourcing of our jobs is a far greater threat to working people than illegal immigration. That’s not to say that illegal immigration doesn’t hurt workers, but it pales in comparison to outsourcing.
Let’s compare two factories. Both factories, burdened by increasing pressure from offshore competition, are pressed by their shareholders to take drastic action. One factory decides to close up shop in the U.S. and move overseas, the other decides to remain here, cutting costs by replacing their low skilled workers with illegal immigrants. Which has a greater impact on the working people and their community?
Let’s first look at the factory that moves overseas:
When they close shop, all of the workers, skilled and unskilled, lose their jobs. The good paying jobs provided by the factory are now forever gone. Not only do the workers lose their wages, but local, state, and the federal government lose the tax revenue that used to be deducted from their paychecks, as well as other fees and taxes paid by the factory.
Dozens of vendors who supplied goods and services to the factory, from the supplier of paper clips to the shipping company that hauled their finished products, have lost a customer, reducing the vendor’s revenue and likewise reducing tax revenue for government. If these vendors depended on this factory as a major source of their revenue, they are now faced with the possibility of having to downsize, costing even more workers their jobs and further reducing tax revenues.
Local merchants, from the hardware store to the greasy spoon, who sold goods and services to the factory workers will now face decreased revenues as their customers are forced to spend less, which also further decreases local tax revenue. If the merchants lose enough customers, they will be forced to downsize… or as often happen when large factories close in small towns, the small merchants go out of business. More lost jobs, more lost tax revenue.
If the local economy is not robust enough to provide new jobs for these unemployed workers, they will be forced to leave the area in search of work, which only exacerbates the problems mentioned above. Furthermore, as local government becomes starved of revenue, government services, from the fire department to the local schools all suffer. If things decline too far, the town will have difficulty retaining residents or attracting new residents, which will only make matters worse for everyone remaining in the community.
As you can see, when a factory closes, it sends ripples beyond the factory gates that impact hundreds, if not thousands, of other workers. Our nation is littered with once prosperous towns that have been decimated when factories, or in some cases, entire industries, have packed it up and moved overseas.
Now look at the factory that brought in illegal aliens instead of closing. The factory is still in operation. Taxes are still being paid. (Even the illegal aliens have taxes deducted from their paychecks, like everyone else at the factory… but of course, they don’t get to benefit from most of the services those taxes provide.)
Vendors are still supplying the factory. The vendors continue to employ their own workers and continue to provide tax revenue.
Local merchants retain their customers, thus retaining their own employees and providing more tax revenue.
Strapped local government is not further burdened with dramatically decreased tax revenues, helping them to maintain vital services.
All of this local economic activity contributes to the overall health of the community, making it more attractive for residents.
Now, I realize this is a very over simplified example, but the idea is to illustrate that a closed factory has a far greater negative impact on workers and a community than immigrant workers. Does this mean that low wage immigrant workers don’t drive down wages? Of course, not! Does this mean that workers that are displaced by immigrant workers aren’t devastated? Not at all. All I’m saying is that when you look at the broader picture, the outsourcing of our jobs overseas is far worse for workers and our nation than the influx of immigrants. That’s not to say that immigration doesn’t have problems that need addressing, but the impact of immigration’s problems pale in comparison to the devastation wrought by moving our industry overseas.
Besides, we have to acknowledge that even if every immigrant, legal or not, vanished from our country, there would be no shortage of folks desperate enough to work for below the prevailing wage. No matter where you go, there will always be someone who is more hungry and desperate than you are, willing to work for wages that you would never consider. This has been true throughout history. Such is the nature of the free market. When corporations are allowed to maximize their profits on the backs of working people, working people will suffer every time as the corporations drive wages further and further into the gutter.
Solution? Contrary to the desires of most Americans, there simply are no simple solutions. All I can offer is what history has taught us. We Americans are so myopic sometimes that we tend to forget that we have been through similar problems in the past. Over a hundred years ago, many working class people labored for sub standard wages in horrible working conditions. As the robber barons and their enablers in the government put the squeeze on their workers, things became progressively worse. It wasn’t until conditions became so grave that even the middle class was feeling the pinch that things changed. There was a tremendous populist uprising that surged across the nation. People took to the streets and a lot of blood was spilled. After a few years of increasing unrest, those in power realized that something had to be done to quell the masses, which resulted in the reforms and regulations that hemmed in many of the excesses of unchecked capitalism, helping to level the playing field between capital and labor which improved the lives of the working class.
Somehow, over the past 30 years or so, the American people have fallen asleep at the wheel. Somehow we have been convinced by those in power to abandon the reforms and regulations that protected working people from the cold hand of the free market, and now the working people and the middle class are beginning to feel the impact of our folly. The robber barons and their whores in the government are back, stronger than ever.
The issue isn’t so much immigrants as it is the willingness of corporations to exploit them for cheap labor and our governments willingness to accommodate the corporate agenda. Until such time that our government once again steps up to level the playing field between capital and labor, the decline of conditions for working people and the loss of American jobs to overseas competitors will continue unabated, regardless of immigration. It’s a vicious cycle that will not stop until the American people demand action. Are we up to the task? We better hope so.
March 30th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
Perhaps you should write op-eds when the posts are that lengthy.
“Evidently, the Park service shares my opinion.” LOL! They don’t share anything of the sort. Just because you dwell on an irrelevant conclusion, and one that only blames one side, nothing is proven with logic. Logically you failed. Nowhere did you address the underlying fact that illegal immigration continued to increase even as the border factories were active. Apparently not all were included. You ran like a scalded cat from that point.
March 30th, 2006 at 1:45 pm
“Trying to imply that you are somehow superior because of your website”
Nothing of the sort. But the house where America was born is another matter. You said my ancestors were illegal and wondered if I could prove they weren’t. Game set match. I don’t doubt you don’t give flying f___ about it since its not the type of American story you want to hear.
March 30th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Here’s what I feel on this whole immigration matter…
True that we have to enforce our borders. Build a fence, a wall, or whatever along the border with mexico. Also beef up our border security, etc. Pump money into that. But also we have to address the illegal aliens within the country. Just addressing the border security alone will be meaningless. And to the people that do not support this new bill – are you in support of them deporting all this people? The cost will be over $200 billion as Kennedy said. Who will pay for that? Instead they should just make them pay a penalty and stay legally. Most of these immigrants support our economy. America is built on these values. And enforcing our borders and security will reduce the occurence of illegals in the future. Of course there will always be those who come and overstay their visa.
March 30th, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Oh, Mark A. York, you are so entertaining. Few things tickle me more than a whiney little troll like yourself who feels compelled to continue to attack me after the debate has already ended. Do you honestly believe I give a crap about your worthless opinion of me?
Geepers, your panties are wound so tight that you had to post two smears against me within minutes of each other. Did I really get under your skin that badly? Have you always been such a cry baby? You really do need to learn how to play better with others. I think you need a nap.
I should just walk away and leave you to continue stewing in your own juices… but something just compels me to agitate you some more, so here goes.
Your snide comment about my lengthy response to Eleanore is quite telling. (Funny, I don’t remember you being a part of that conversation.) Who appointed you the post Nazi? If you have something you would like to contribute to our conversation, by all means join us. Otherwise, your snotty little comment only succeeds in making you look like… well, a whiney little snot.
As tempting as it may be, I’m not taking the bait to rehash our NAFTA argument. I’ve explained my bone of contention with you several different times, yet you never addressed my point, instead opting to interject other ephemera that did not answer my question, a classic debating tactic used to deflect attention away from the salient point. If anyone has been dancing around like a scalded cat, it’s been Mr. Mark A. York. You can keep trying to paint me as the wrong party, but we both know the truth, don’t we? At this point, I honestly don’t care what your opinion is. You’ve proven the worth of your opinions with clear distinction.
Finally, I can’t help but comment on this wonderful statement from the brilliant mind of Mark A. York:
“Nothing of the sort. But the house where America was born is another matter. You said my ancestors were illegal and wondered if I could prove they weren’t. Game set match. I don’t doubt you don’t give flying f___ about it since its not the type of American story you want to hear.”
You are one sad motherf-er, Mark A. York. You know absolutely nothing about me, my ancestry, my interests… nothing at all. You will likely be shocked and amazed to learn that my ancestors had as much a role to play in the history of this nation as yours. I’ll take my family history over yours any day. The difference between you and I is I’m not so insecure that I feel compelled to shout it out on a blog. Unlike you, I don’t need a website to proclaim my pride.
The house were America was born? Geez, talk about delusions of grandeur! If you think America was born in Rueben’s house, I have some vacation land in Florida you might be interested in. Besides, don’t you think it’s a bit grandiose to take such pride in an ancestor who’s biggest claim to fame was his association with America’s most famous infamous traitor? Wow, I’m so impressed.
I do sincerely apologize if I made you believe that I was accusing your ancestors of being illegal aliens. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you read that post, you will find that I made no such comment. I merely asked how could you be sure of your ancestors status, which was meant to illustrate the point that most Americans have no idea of the immigration status of their ancestors. It was a rhetorical question. Alas, rhetorical questions, like satire, are often lost on people who don’t posses the intellect to process them. What’s your excuse?
Game set match? I wasn’t aware we were keeping score. Are their any deductions for being a pompous ass? You better hope not.
Gee, come to think of it, I guess you are right. I’m not interested in your bullsh-t American story after all. Imagine that!
March 30th, 2006 at 6:34 pm
Is that so? Still running from the issue of everyone’s ancestors may be illegal. I guess I through wrench in that thesis.
March 31st, 2006 at 1:39 pm
Mark A. York,
I must confess, I am quite amazed at how willing you are to make yourself look like a complete idiot, time and time again. I can only surmise that you suffer from a sever learning disability.
Here is the exact text from my post. Read it over one more time, very slowly. Take your time and use a dictionary if the big words stump you:
“Finally, I’m glad to hear that your ancestors arrived legally in the United States. (At least, that’s the impression I get from your response.) I guess that means that your family arrived here recently enough that you know Grandpa York landed on these shores with all his paperwork in order. You do know that for a fact, right? I mean, you aren’t just assuming that Grandpa York was legal, right? You know what happens when one assumes…
As for me, I can’t say for sure. I’ve traced my family back to the early 1800’s, but actual knowledge of when the original Grandpa BornToBurn first stepped on U.S. soil seems forever lost to my family. Whether or not Gramps entered the country with the full blessing of the U.S. government, or merely stepped off the boat and blended into the crowd like the millions of other new arrivals to the New World have done for hundreds of years, I can only guess.
The point is, unless you know for a fact that your ancestors arrived here in full compliance with U.S. immigration laws, you would be pretty hard pressed to be certain if your ancestors originally came to this country legally or not. Many native born Americans are in fact descendants of illegal immigrants, they just aren’t aware of it. It only takes a few generations before Grampa’s origins, let alone his immigration status, are long forgotten.”
As any simpleton, even simpletons like Mark A. York, can see, I did not state that everyone’s ancestors may be illegal. I stated that most people cannot be sure of their ancestors immigration status, and that many Americans are descended from illegal immigrants without even knowing it. Big difference.
Mark, if you can’t understand that distinction, then perhaps you should demand a refund from CSUN, as they seem to have failed miserably in your education. At the least, you should return for a remedial reading comprehension refresher. You owe it to yourself.
March 31st, 2006 at 4:31 pm
Keep namcalling asshole. I indeed DO know for a freakin fact they did since it was 16 fucking 35 when they came. I have the records, pinhead. And it wasn’t a country then. It was an English colony so it seems you are the one who needs remedial help. It seems you are the who doesn’t know. I’m the guy that does. The fifth generation, Reuben, was active in 1775 when George Washington contacted him for the military campaign. I’m sure this is tough for you to swallow but it’s just a flat-out fact. Many don’t know. I do.
March 31st, 2006 at 4:43 pm
“I did not state that everyone’s ancestors may be illegal. I stated that most people cannot be sure of their ancestors immigration status, and that many Americans are descended from illegal immigrants without even knowing it.”
That sounds like it to me if you can’t prove they weren’t they could be, thus we have the argument from ignorance. Yup I read it correctly, and I didn’t fit the premise. The thesis is this: don’t bitch about illegals because you may have illegal blood coursing through your veins and thus are hypocritical.
http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/comp1/logic.htm#ignorantiam
March 31st, 2006 at 4:48 pm
This is a new one for me. English colonists who settled the American shore through force of arms eventually subjugating and expunging an indigenous population were not illegal aliens?
They came here “legally” — not with the approval of the INS but by the grace and will of God himself.
Of that’s good to know.
March 31st, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Oh Cooper please. Not the “we killed all the Indians” thing. We didn’t of course. There was no legal/illegal and you know full well there wasn’t. And the force went both ways. I happen to come from one of the families who lived with the so-called natives. Abenakis to be exact. They came and went from the house at will and worked with my family. They also early on burned down several of them.
March 31st, 2006 at 4:57 pm
Oh yeah I forgot. The Indians committed suicide. Depressed, no doubt, over their earlier uncontrolled and random vandalism wrought against their English friends
Anyway, Im putting York on a time out. Im worried he’s gonna get karpel-tunnel syndrome.
March 31st, 2006 at 5:10 pm
Yeah you better not let any opinions in that don’t fit. I’m really disappointed. Evidently American history isn’t your forte.
March 31st, 2006 at 5:13 pm
That’s right York. Im notorious for censoring out dissident opinions from the blog LOL
Don’t flatter yourself. After repeated warnings I have asked you to cut back your avalanche of comments so that you do not monopolize discussions. Ive let u slide. But when you become abusive and start calling other commenters derogatory names you’re put on leave.
March 31st, 2006 at 6:24 pm
Mark A. York,
I thought for sure that even you would be able to understand my last post, but much to my amazement, you demonstrate that you have the reading comprehension skills of a house plant. How you confuse a statement that most people don’t know the immigration status of their ancestors as meaning that YOU don’t know the status of YOUR ancestor is beyond me. Either your emotions are getting the best of you or you don’t have a grasp of the language… most likely a combination of the two.
One last thing before I allow you fade into Cooper induced oblivion… although I am mildly impressed by your attempt to apply rules of logic to our conversation, I’m afraid all you did was demonstrate, once again, that you have no grasp on what you are talking about. Argumentum ad ignorantiam (aka argument from ignorance) refers to an argument where the writer declares something must be truthful simply because there is no evidence to the contrary. For example:
You can’t prove that Santa Clause doesn’t exist, so therefor he must exist.
A nifty fallacy to be sure… unfortunately for you, it doesn’t apply here. When I state that most people don’t know the immigration status of their ancestors, that’s a factual statement. Argumentum ad ignorantiam doesn’t apply. When I state that many American’s are descended from illegal immigrants without their knowledge, that is also a factual statement. Again, argumentum ad ignorantium plays no role here.
Had I said that most people don’t know the immigration status of their ancestors, therefore their ancestors must have been illegal… well, then argumentum ad ignorantiam would apply. Understand the distinction? Somehow, I doubt that you do.
A few words of advice: if you want to use the principles of logic to declare an argument fallacious, make damn sure you understand the principle behind the fallacy you are quoting, otherwise you just make yourself look like a bumbling fool. What I find especially amusing is that not only did you erroneously declare a fallacy that doesn’t apply, you also provided a link to a web site that very clearly explains the fallacy. Either you didn’t bother to read the web site, or as I suspect, you simply don’t understand it. You really should consider getting some help with your reading comprehension, because it’s painfully obvious to even the most casual observer that you are severely challenged in that department.
Now, go in peace and troll here no more.
Cooper: Sorry about that. I couldn’t resist… I just don’t suffer fools well at all. I promise, I’ll be good.
March 31st, 2006 at 7:05 pm
I don’t suffer fools either, or fallacious argumentation. I’ve been called every name in the book by the clowns attracted here.
Well I got an A in the logic class so it’s not the first time a infringer didn’t like having it pointed out. You’ve implied that most people don’t know whom they’ve descended from and thus they could very well be illegal. You asked me could I prove it:
“You do know that for a fact, right? I mean, you aren’t just assuming that Grandpa York was legal, right? You know what happens when one assumes…â€
Yeah make an ass out of you and me, but in this case it’s just you since I can prove it and did, you can’t. What is the conclusion
of doubting if anyone can? I’m saying this is a permutation of Ad Ig since the idea is we are all likely to be descended from illegal immigrants whether we know it or not according to your statement and only proof can get one a pass from this lumping. Conviction by implication.
My conclusion stands as does the original statement on NAFTA that brought you into trolldom. People hang with their ideas regardless of evidence against.
I suppose calling people simpletons and sad mofos isn’t namecalling?
Yeah pardon me I’m choking on hypocrisy.
April 1st, 2006 at 12:53 pm
What’s that sound I’m hearing? Oh, it’s Mark A. York crying again. What’s the matter, Mark? Did I hurt your feelings by demonstrating what a clod you are? Aww, I’m so sorry.
I don’t know if I should be amused or horrified that you received an “A” in logic class, considering you couldn’t apply a simple fallacy like Ad Ig properly. I guess you missed that day in class, huh? (Care to guess who else received an “A” in logic?) What’s even more hysterical is that you come back at me with Ad Ig once again, clearly demonstrating that you haven’t a clue. CSUN’s standards must really be slipping.
One of the things I find amusing about you is your uncanny knack for putting words in my mouth and twisting the context around so it will fit within your tortured logic. In your latest screed, you state that, “You’ve implied that most people don’t know whom they’ve descended from and thus they could very well be illegal.” You go on to say that I’m claiming, “we are all likely to be descended from illegal immigrants whether we know it or not.” That’s not what I said. Once again, your dreadful reading comprehension skills rear their ugly head. Here’s the actual quote from my post:
“The point is, unless you know for a fact that your ancestors arrived here in full compliance with U.S. immigration laws, you would be pretty hard pressed to be certain if your ancestors originally came to this country legally or not. Many native born Americans are in fact descendants of illegal immigrants, they just aren’t aware of it.”
Do you see the distinct difference between what I actually said and what you claim I said? Do you understand the difference between the words MANY, MOST, and ALL? Spotting these subtle distinctions are in important part of understanding logic, something a brilliant “A” student like yourself should surely grasp… but evidently, not. The fact still remains, most people do not know the immigration status of their distant relatives, and many people are descended from illegal immigrants without their knowledge. That’s a factual statement. If you can’t understand why Ad Ig doesn’t apply here, you should consider returning to your logic class for a refresher.
BTW, You can quit sobbing about Rueben’s immigration status. I merely put forward the question to you as a way of illustrating a point. Your reply clearly demonstrated that you know his status. Bravo. You continue to harp on that, despite the fact that I have never contested your answer, which leads me to believe that you suffer from a wee bit of an insecurity problem. (Didn’t daddy give you enough approval while you were growing up?) Besides, whether or not any individual can positively identify the status of their ancestors in no way invalidates my point. If you can’t see that, you truly are one sad simplistic mo-fo.
Okay… that’s a low blow. I really shouldn’t call you names. I confess, it’s juvenile, disrespectful and entirely uncalled for… but damn, you do make it so easy for me. You keep coming after me, unwittingly displaying your remedial reading skills, tossing out laughably tortured logic and repeatedly demonstrating what a clueless moron you are. (OOPS! There I go again! Sorry about that.) The saddest part is that you have no idea just how badly your are embarrassing yourself. You are like some unfortunate autistic child who just can’t help banging his head against the floor over and over again.
Well, I for one have grown increasingly bored with you. As anyone who reads your posts here can plainly see, you have had nothing of substance to offer the debate… a lightweight in every sense. Continuing the conversation with you is just a waste of my time. I have no doubt that you will reply with yet another worthless screed, marred by your usual deficiencies. Go ahead and rant away, because I’m not playing with you anymore. I surrender myself before your towering intellect. I’m leaving the thread. The sandbox is all yours.
April 1st, 2006 at 1:19 pm
“Besides, whether or not any individual can positively identify the status of their ancestors in no way invalidates my point.”
Yes the fallacy of ambiguity. Many, most, all. “Many” never means “few” in my experience with the term. It translates into “a lot.” Which was your design.
“you truly are one sad simplistic mo-fo.”
Either I concede your slam to most Americans, (who likely don’t know their ancestors’ legal immigrant status according to your statement although not backed up with immigration data or carries with any appeal to authority contained therein) or I’m the above ad hominem. Yeah I get the message you sniveling little pissant.
April 1st, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Of course only my records can actually be verifed so in Internet discourse anonynous claims carry no weight. Sort of like overgeneralizations about ancestry.
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October 22nd, 2007 at 9:47 pm
I am an American born here and if this Immigration reform act gets passed, let me tell you, I can’t wait to pay out of state fees to go to the college I’m interesrted in while all of these ILLEGAL aliens get the honor of payin in- state tuition to the college of their choice!!! Oh and not just me, but all of the aliens who have come to our country on a legal visa and must pay triple the tuition and who are following the proper channels to become a citizen. What does this say to those people doing it the right way?? Not to mentiion all of the illegals lying about how long they’ve been here to hop on the ole magic carpet ride and collect all kinds of benefits that should go to the people born here or legally naturalized here. Oh yeah, and does anyone even care that they are breaking Federal laws?? It’s pretty sad that they don’t look to their own countries to take care of them and fight for their rights as so many AMERICAN men and women died here to make our country what it is today.
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