Breakthrough
Can't remember the last time there was any good news from Congress. Finally, an exception.
As immigrant protests still rippled across the country Monday, a key Republican-dominated Senate panel has -- against all odds-- approved liberalized immigration reform. Racing against a deadline imposed by the Republican leadership, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted 12-6 to approve the broad outlines of what's become known as the McCain-Kennedy comprehenisve immigration reform proposals. The measure, which will now go to the full Senate floor on Tuesday, creates a pathway for many of the country's 12 million "illegals" to gain permanent residency (and eventual citizenship), and would allow an additional 400,000 migrant workers to legally enter the U.S. annually.
The Senate proposal also strikes down the measure passed in December by the House that would criminalize the undocumented as well as those, like religious and health workers, who aid them. While the bill approved today also calls for expansion of the Border Patrol and a tight program of employer verification, it nevertheless pits the Senate against a recalcitrant anti-immigration House.
Approval by the Senate committee came as four Republicans -- Sam Brownback, Mike DeWine, Lindsay Graham and Chairman Arlen Specter -- sided with Democrats.
The measure faces a fierce and uphill battle on the Senate floor. And an even tougher future if it makes it past the Senate when it would face reconciliation with the more draconian House version.
Monday's vote, nevertheless, is a huge and welcome political victory for immigration reform advocates who have been working to bring national policies into line with some pretty stark realities. For the first time in 20 years, we see at least one house of congress inching out of the hypocrisy and denial that has characterized U.S. border and immigration policy.
The vote came as immigrant student protests continued to percolate in several cities from Los Angeles to Detroit and tens of thousands walked out of schools. The L.A. Unified School District alone reported at least 22,000 students had joined Monday's walkouts. A smaller group of about 100 briefly blocked a Los Angeles freeway, waving Mexican, Guatemalan and Salvadoran flags. Monday's protests were an aftershock to the history-making rally of half-million pro-immigrant demonstrators that occupied two dozen blocks of downtown Los Angeles.
It's no less than stunning that Monday's Senate Judiciary Committee vote came on the heels of these demonstrations. Some political analysts are predicting a xenophobic backlash to the immigrant mobilization. I've taken the opposite position, arguing that the immigrant protests are, in fact, a backlash against the Minuteman-ish ugly nativism that has crept into the political debate of the last couple of years.
Are we on the verge of some sort of new civil rights movement? That might be overstating things. There's a natural ceiling on public sympathy for a foreign-born Spanish-speaking population that has decided to take to the streets. But how encouraging it is to see at least some rays of enlightenement shining through.
P.S. Here's some great reporting in Tuesday's L.A. Times, giving us the first behind-the-scenes glimpse of how Saturday's rally of a half-million was conjured up. Turns out that the primary organizers were popular Spanish-language radio DeeJay's. They urged the crowd to be tidy, peaceful and to wave American-- not Mexican flags (which showed up anyway). The most significant institutional support for the march came from organized labor -- namely the Service Employees International Union. So much for the cockeyed notion that these "illegal" immigrants are a nefarious counter-weight to unionization. Anyone with a lick of knowledge can tell you that over the past decade the only union growth has been among (mostly undocumented) immigrant service workers.
Also, see Daniel Hernandez' eye-witness report from Saturday's mega-demo in L.A. He also underlines the power of the Spanish-language media -- unheard, unread and un-noticed by millions of non-Spanish speakers. There's also this informative piece in the WashPo once again underscoring the role that Latino media and the Catholic Church played in the mobilization. Also, Korean radio. One out of five Koreans here are also illegals? Who knew?
March 27th, 2006 at 6:18 pm
I wouldn’t be so happy…yet. The final bill when it is passed (if passed) next year most likely will not be anything like what it is today.
Pols will not vote on anything that will keep them from getting the latino vote.
In fact if they were sure they would be elected they would pay the illegals $10.00 an hour while the rest of us get minimum wage.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
March 27th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
I thought this essay was useful, it gives a general overview of this issue:
Analysis of of the Immigration Problem
The world has gone through a revolution and it has changed a
lot. We have cut the death rates around the world with modern medicine
and new farming methods. For example, we sprayed to destroy mosquitoes
in Sri Lanka in the 1950s. In one year, the average life of everyone
in Sri Lanka was extended by eight years because the number of people
dying from malaria suddenly declined.
This was a great human achievement. But we cut the death rate
without cutting the birth rate. Now population is soaring. There were
about one billion people living in the world when the Statue of
Liberty was built. There are 4.5 billion today. World population is
growing at an enormous rate. The world is going to add a billion
people in the next eleven years, that’s 224,000 every day! Experts say
there will be at least 1.65 billion more people living in the world in
the next twenty years.
We must understand what these numbers mean for the U.S. Let’s
look at the question of jobs. The International Labor organization
projects a twenty-year increase of 600 to 700 million people who will
be seeking jobs. Eighty-eight percent of the world’s population growth
takes place in the Third World. More than a billion people today are
paid about 150 dollars a year, which is less than the average American
earns in a week. And growing numbers of these poorly paid Third World
citizens want to come to the United States.
In the 1970s, all other countries that accept immigrants
started controlling the number of people they would allow into their
countries. The United States did not. This means that the huge numbers
of immigrants who are turned down elsewhere will turn to the United
States. The number of immigrants is staggering. The human suffering
they represent is a nightmare. Latin America’s population is now 390
million people. It will be 800 million in the year 2025. Mexico’s
population has tripled since the Second World War. One third of the
population of Mexico is under ten years of age, as a result, in just
ten years, Mexico’s unemployment rate will increase 30 percent, as
these children become young adults, in search of work. There were in
1990 an estimated four million illegal aliens in the United States,
and about 55 percent of them were from Mexico.
These people look to the United States. Human population has
always moved, like waves, to fresh lands. But for the first time in
human history, there are no fresh lands, no new continents. We will
have to think and decide with great care what our policy should be
toward immigration. At this point in history, American immigration
policies are in a mess. Our borders are totally out of control. Our
border patrol arrests 3000 illegal immigrants per day, or 1.2 million
per year, and Two illegal immigrants get in for every one caught. And
those caught just try again!
More than 1 million people are entering the U.S. legally every
year. From 1983 through 1992, 8.7 million of these newcomers
arrived-the highest number in any 10-year period since 1910. A record
1.8 million were granted permanent residence in 1991. Because present
law stresses family unification, these arrivals can bring over their
spouses, sons and daughters: some 3.5 million are now in line to come
in. Once here, they can bring in their direct relatives. As a result,
there exists no visible limit to the number of legal entries.
Until a few years ago, immigrants seeking asylum were rare. In
1975, a total of 200 applications were received in the U.S. Suddenly,
asylum is the plea of choice in the U.S., and around the world, often
as a cover for economic migration. U.S. applications were up to
103,000 last year, and the backlog tops 300,000 cases. Under the
present asylum rules, practically anyone who declares that he or she
is fleeing political oppression has a good chance to enter the U.S.
Chinese are almost always admitted, for example, if they claim that
China’s birth-control policies have limited the number of children
they can have.
Right now, once aliens enter the U.S., it is almost impossible
to deport them, even if they have no valid documents. Thousands of
those who enter illegally request asylum only if they are caught. The
review process can take 10 years or more, and applicants often simply
disappear while it is under way. Asylum cases are piling up faster
than they can be cleared, with the Immigration and Naturalization
Service falling farther behind every year. At her confirmation
hearings at the end of September, Doris Meissner, Clinton’s nominee as
commissioner of the Immigration and Naturalization Services, conceded,
‘The asylum system is broken, and we need to fix it.’
Adding the numbers of legal and illegal immigrants, 50 percent
of all U.S. population growth comes from immigration. While Americans
try to have smaller families, immigration threatens our nation. If
immigration rates continue to be this high, more than seventy million
people will be added to the United States population in just fifty
years, with no end in sight. We are taking in more people than all of
the rest of the world combined. As have all the other countries of the
word, America needs to control its borders. As every house needs a
door, so every country needs a border. And yet, our borders are full
of holes. We have clearly lost control over our future. Our children
will pay the price of uncontrolled immigration.
The United States is no longer an empty continent. In 1886,
when the Statue of Liberty was built, there were 58 million people in
the United States. In 1984 there were 240 million people, that’s four
times the total population in less then a century The U.S. cannot and
should not be the home of last resort for all the world s poor,
huddled masses. We are not doing a good job with our own poor, as we
see more people without jobs.
Supporters of immigration use many arguments to support their
side. Let’s look at a few of these arguments: Illegal immigrants take
jobs no Americans want. The fact is that the average illegal immigrant
arrested in Denver, Colorado, made more than seven dollars an hour.
Many were making over 100 dollars per day. Denver identified 43
illegal aliens making 100 dollars per day as roofers, while 438 people
were registered in their employment services who would have loved
those jobs. The average illegal immigrant arrested in Chicago makes
$5.65 an hour. More than thirty million American workers make less
than that.
A common belief is that aliens fulfill many of the least
desirable jobs. However, most experts agree that in today’s economy,
there is no shortage of Americans competing for many of these same
jobs. Actually, many Americans already work in these low-paying jobs.
For example: the poor black woman, who works as a seamstress, Her boss
asked her to train a new employee, an illegal immigrant. As soon as
she finished training her new charge, she was fired. Her position, of
course, went to the illegal immigrant, who was willing to work for
less pay, and under deplorable working conditions. This is one example
of how illegal workers depress wages, and slow, stall or prevent
unionization or improvements to working conditions.
Another myth cited by supporters of immigration is that
illegal immigrants work hard, pay taxes, and do not go on welfare. The
sad truth is that these folks seem to learn the ropes of the welfare
system with incredible speed. Today’s illegal immigrants apply for and
receive benefits from the government that citizens need. According to
Donald L. Huddle, an economist at Rice University in Texas, legal and
illegal immigrants cost the nation a net 42.5 billion dollars in 1992.
The Huddle study also found that in 1992, more than 2 million
Americans were displaced from their jobs by illegal immigrants. This
resulted in an additional 11.9 billion dollars in public assistance.
In California alone, they cost more than 18 billion dollars a
year. California currently has an estimated 300,000 illegal immigrants
now attending grades’ 0-12. This will costs the California tax payers
an estimated 1.5 billion dollars. This is 10 percent of the students
currently enrolled in our elementary schools today! California has
49.8 percent of the countries illegal aliens, therefore, California
pays multiple costs for its leaky borders.
Providing health care for illegal immigrants costs California
tax payers 400 million dollars annually. Illegals drain about two
billion dollars a year for incarceration, schooling and Medicaid from
the budgets of such major destination states as Texas, Florida and
California. For California alone, a 1993 study by the California
Legislature estimates criminal justice costs involving illegal
immigrants to be 385 million dollars to the state, with an additional
112 million dollars to local or county government. This is a total
cost of 497 million dollars, paid by the California tax payer, each
and every year!
Illinois did a study showing that it paid 66 million dollars
in unemployment benefits to illegal immigrants in one year, despite a
law that was supposed to stop illegal immigrants from getting
unemployment benefits. Los Angeles estimates that it spends 269
million dollars in social services on illegal immigrants each year.
Every person added to our population drains our natural resources and
contributes to the destruction of our environment.
In a Pulitzer-Prize-winning study, the Des Moines Register
found that for every person added to our population, 1.5 acres of the
richest farm land goes out of production to make way for new houses,
roads, and shopping centers. If this continues, the United States will
stop shipping food to other countries shortly after the year 2000. How
can the United States feed the hungry people of the world?
The national majority now says it favors cutting back on legal
immigration. A TIME/CNN poll determined last week that 77 percent of
those surveyed felt the government was not doing enough to keep out
illegal immigrants. For years now, the battle has raged between the
federal authorities who are supposed to police the borders and the
states who pay the price if they fail.
In an attempt to reduce illegal immigration, Nevada Senator
Harry Reid, has introduced a bill that would establish an annual limit
of 300,000 newcomers, including ”immediate relatives,” and a
national identification card. Congress passed legislation in 1986 that
stipulates fines and other penalties for employers who knowingly hire
illegal aliens. The bill includes provisions to grant amnesty to
illegal aliens who were in the United States prior to January 1, 1982,
and to aid farmers who have relied on illegal aliens to harvest their
crops.
Does anyone benefit from the rising tide of illegal
immigration? Businesses that can profit from employing illegals at low
wages do. And many illegals are better off here than in their own
countries. But many others are exploited by dishonest employers and
are treated like slaves. These immigrants are denied the rights and
privileges we want every person in the United States to enjoy.
In closing, we must all realize this issue will not go away.
Other generations of Americans made great sacrifices so that we today
can enjoy the freedom, the quality of life, and the standard of living
that we have. When I think of what uncontrolled immigration will do to
the dreams of my parents and grandparents, what it will mean to the
future of my children, I realize that we will find a way to control
immigration. Because we must.
—
March 27th, 2006 at 7:20 pm
This not a breakthrough but rather a capitulation to, as it’s been describe, a practicality. The protestors are no better, pompous. They should all be round-up and deported…illegal or not. Hypocrisy? It was my impression it was a failure to enforce the law.
They’re all little versions of conquistadors. This country has slipped another notch. A big one!
March 27th, 2006 at 7:37 pm
Excellent Eleanore! Resources and space are finite. Humans are not and when a proliferation of this scope takes place something has to give. And it does. The environment erodes, quality of life declines, people die en masse, ecosytems crumble. No it is the source populations that must be addressed and controlled. The lifeboat cannot save them. Only they can.
March 27th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
if you want to deport someone, let’s start with yourself or rather your parents or grandparents who I’m pretty sure, were immigrants themselves. (Unless you’re a native american which I truly doubt) Just because they made it here couple of years before these times doesn’t give them any more right over those who came later. And that, my friend, is a hypocrisy you’ve mentioned.
These people here aren’t fellons; they have their families and most of them work harder than you could ever imagine. It is for best of us to have them all fingerprinted, make them pay taxes, include them into our society while enforcing our border control at the same time. That is the right American way.
Cheers
March 27th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
…Anti, you miss the very important distinction between immigrants, who aren’t felons, and people who sneak over the border in contravention to U.S. law. Unless you’re asserting an inalienable right to enter this country at will, laws be damned, and then to be declared citizens, you’ve conflated two issues that don’t belong together. A nation that has no control of its borders, and which instead throws them open to the world, is committing suicide. There is no more right to enter this country illegally and then be declared a citizen than I would have the right to enter Mexico under cover of night and declare myself a Mexican.
And that’s not even to begin to get into the human exploitation Mexican and Chinese and other workers are subjected to, and the spiriting away of jobs that used to belong to Americans. Americans won’t be busboys or meat packers or construction workers? Give me a break!
March 27th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
I wish someone would advocate I be incorporated into the country my family came to in 1635, but everyday I just get farther away, and closer to the poor house which, has never been that far away. My price started at $1 an hour back in the ’60s, rose to $21+ in the ’80s and now hovers at about $13.58 when I find it, an increasingly rare occurrance. This is not progressive folks. It’s the pits.
March 27th, 2006 at 8:37 pm
Somebody’s gonna have to restrain Lou Dobbs……
Remind me again why the GOP brought this up?…
March 27th, 2006 at 8:48 pm
Wow, the level of racism in several in these responses by people who call themselves Americans is as alarming as Eleanore’s “Facts” are alarm-ist.
Facts:
1. The highest wealth differential in the world betweem two bordering countries exists between the U.S. and Mexico: no wonder there is out-migration from Mexico (and Latin America)!
2. Without legal rights, Mexican workers are subjected to fear, intimidation, exploitation of the worst kind; they exist as a slave class in this country. Is that what you advocate? In spewing hatred and alarmism towards the poorest workers in this country you are both selfish and cruel in turning a blind eye to immense exploitation of workers and human rights violations.
3. If you were really worried about a supposed overpopulation threat, then you would advocate for policies that would reduce the wealth disparity between the U.S. and Mexico: join the movements against U.S. corporte globalization and neoliberal policies abroad, and support overseas development aid that offers people, specifically women, in developing countries education and jobs (female education is the primary factor reducing birthrates, as development studies show).
3. …But I suspect that what you are really worried about is the “wrong” races, (ie. brown and black peoples) in your midst. Perhaps, then, ask yourselves whether these people willingely choose to uproot their lives and families, leave their beautiful land, cultures, and termperate climates to live in hiding here and endure brutal working conditions alongside a hostile, spoiled, ignorant peoples who pass laws that render them and its own poor, the salt of the earth, felons for scraping a meager living for themselves and their children. Hmmmmm…
4. It’s survival, stupid: current U.S. economic policies, past landgrabs from Mexico, wars, and European (and now American neoliberal) colonialism have impoverished Latin America. As a friend of mine from Mexico said, “we’d rather work like dogs in the U.S. and get paid a few dollars than work like dogs in Mexico and get paid nothing at all.”
5. Broad social change, as the protesters are saying, is needed. What can we do to improve people’s life chances and job security–in North, Central, and South America? How can we secure the human and labor rights of all workers, which would in fact keep the minumum wage from dropping for ALL workers in this country?
Think big, see the issues clearly, adn please stop spewing racist, fear-mongering bile. Help me to remember why I liked being an American.
JB
March 27th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
I hear what Eleanor and JR said, but still, I support anti. You’ve outlined all the negative connotations these so-called illegals’ bring to our contry, but what about the positives. It’s true that they are the hub of our agricultural system and other sectors (housing). Take all 11 million and throw them out, and you’ll be buying oranges at $2 per piece. Or buying a 1 bedroom townhouse in Boonies, Alabama for $400,000. And don’t tell me you’ll find americans to replace those jobs because the fact is that, you won’t. First there are too many of these ‘low grade’ jobs available, and the business sector knows this, that is why they support this new bill. Second, a typical american would not accept the pay these workers earn. An american would also demand benefits. A lot of these people don’t ask for that. They’re just glad to be receiving a paycheck. I mean there are too many sectors to mention. Think housekeeping, office cleaning, most restaurant behind-the-scenes work, landscaping, etc. The reality of this situation is that whether you legalize them or not, they’re gonna be here. They’ve been here for over 10 years now many of them. Pretending that they don’t exist or not finding a way to legalize them will not solve anything. Whether it is done or not, they will stay here. They have lives and family here already. Also, it is not realistic to say all 11 million should be deported/leave the country. First of all I think that even sounds foolish. We don’t have the resources to ‘force’ such a large number of people out. How?? So in the end, they stay. The best idea is, since they’re already here to stay either way, just register them, do background checks, let them pay a penalty of $2000 and taxes. That’s a total of 22 billion dollars alone in penalty fees (more than the budget of the INS!). Then any back taxes would mean more money. And future tax payments, even more money. Then we can also secure our borders so that entering illegally is not encouraged in the future. So I support that the ones already here be allowed to stay. Not amnesty, just registered and legalized. It only makes sense. People keep making it sound like doomsday - a drone of 11 million people will suddenly tax our health care systems, school, etc. For goodness sakes the 11 million are already here in our systems already!
March 27th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
Its a very difficult task to fix the inmmigration problem, but all this are consecuences of bad choices on past goverments, I dont know at what point they sold the Nation to corporations, even if there are no inmmigrants most of the labor and manufacture will be donne overseas. And the goverment won’t take action, cause there are interest from corporations and they can air there voice and interest with contributions. And about Americans being bussboys, construction workers or taking care of the elderly, Im sure they can but an inmmigrant is more efficient than the average American worker, even if they have the same pay and benefits if any.
The American worker got spoiled, cause there is always somebody who can do the dirty job, but you know…all we have are dirty jobs now cause the good ones are subcontracted over seas or need they need a qualified person and the average American dont take the time to prepare at school as they should.
I think ilegal inmmigrat in order to get legal status should prove that he can incorporate himself to this society, speak the languaje and pay taxes and dues. Check backgroud and police records too.
March 27th, 2006 at 8:53 pm
I have seen very deep thoughts about immigration from both sides.
I understand those worries, yes. I am an Immigrant and I am aware that this is not my country home. I clearly understand why American citizens are so worry about this situation because I do care about America too.
It is so easy to fall in love with America, and I am not talking only about freedom but also about security, about the possibility to have dreams and work for them, perhaps to have them fulfilled.
In Latin America and many other countries, so many times we are so worried about how to feed our children, and we don’t think about Nasdaq or Wallstreet.
We are so worried about thinking if we are going to return today from work (if you are lucky enough to have one) that we don’t care about shopping malls.
We are here now, for first time probably we can go anywhere without thinking if you would be able to go back home.
For first time in my life I don’t care if I will be able to feed my child, rather than that I can think about a good after-school activity for her (my little pricess).
For first time in my life I can live with dignity in a wellcoming country, with my hands and my heart ready to serve … to Americans and the entire world that live here.
So. I understand your worries and believe it or not I don’t blame you if you don’t want me here, neither if you don’t understand my reasons, but what you need to believe is that I ‘ll do my best for this country, because I have the pasion and the dreams, and that will be my proud and I am sure that it will give me the strenght to defeat your hate.
Now let be less romantic.
The house of many Americans … people complain about the high cost in Real State, well, do you want to add more if those houses were made for doubled paid workers?
Do you really think (if you are naive enough) that this economy would do well with the HOLE left by MORE than 12 million humans.
Have you think in the consecuences for this great country if we would face a massive deportation (not to think in the cost of that).
Do you think that the moneyworshipers (not few in politics and in society) would be happy to pay a lot more for goods like houses.
A lot of companies are going elsewhere right now, and guess why, looking for cheaper labor force. Do you want to add more. I mean, do you want to make this country less attractive to the big American companies?
Well, do you see it? it’s not simple, it’s not easy, but we all together (Americans Citizens, Residents, Temporary workers and Undocumented workers), with rational solutions can find the way to keep this country as great as it is and why not make it better.
God bless America … and every body in there!
March 27th, 2006 at 8:54 pm
What do you mean by “a natural ceiling on public sympathy”? Despite the fact that the majority of USeans are for the most part ignorant of the realities faced by many who immigrate here today (facing draconian policies initiated by our own US government - can we say NAFTA?) , I still think that we should refrain from making an assumption that if one is Spanish-speaking and from another country, that most people who had the luck to be born here and to not have to face some of these impoverished realities would not have a compassionate understanding that would have no limit. Let’s try to have some faith.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:11 pm
Not all 11 million undocumented in the US are ‘mexican’. Obviously, majority are, but not all. For instance, I, arrived here as a foreign student, but after completing 4 years of study PLUS a masters degree, could not find an employer to sponsor me for a work visa, so I just continued working illegally. Yes, its sad. How many americans even have a masters degree? A lot of my friends resorted to ‘green card marriages’ (fake marriages of convenience just to get a green card), but I decided not to enter into such. Hey I figured I could ‘hack’ being illegal until something such as this new bill came along, or something better (maybe fall in love with an american, heck i dunno). I mean as long as I don’t committ a crime or leave the country, I’m cool, just keeping my head down here. It’s really sad that a great so-called superpower like America has not addressed this issue even though the country itself was founded on immigration. I mean look at countries like the United Kingdom and Canada. They have more progressive policies. Students there are automatically given work permits after their study, and then from there, put on a pipeline to permanent residence because of their education and experience. Even though they’re smaller, they control the flow of immigrants into their country, but they also address what happens to the immigrants within. And they even have socialized health-care systems - imagine! The US does not leave many options other than green card lottery and family-based immigration. Tighter immigration laws are hurting America, saying the new restrictions aren’t worth it even if they stop the “one out of a zillion [foreigners] who might have a bomb.”
It has also led to a drop in many places of the number of foreign students coming to the United States to study and be graduate students. The U.S. needed foreign students because we are nowhere near graduating enough scientists and engineers to maintain, given the size of our economy, a leadership role in the global economy.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
Joseph: In fact only about half the illegal worker population is Mexican. Maybe another 10-15% are otehr Latinos.
Of course you touch on an issue we havent even gotten into here… the sorry state of HB1 visas for professionals. We are starving ourselves of the cream of global talen by antiquated and ossified policies.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
Thanks Marc. I’m really crossing my fingers that this thing goes through. It would really help a lot of people like me that haven’t visited my home country in years for fear of no way of coming back in. I’m thinking the bill might be killed this year because its re-election year for congress and they’re scared of not getting re-elected by supporting this. But then later, like next year, when they’ve been re-elected to office, they might bring it up again and pass it before Bush leaves office, because I know he really wants to get something passed before leaving office.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
Nations are like ships. If you let too many people on at once, it will sink.
Until 1965 there had always been immigration quotas. You had to wait your turn and prove how you would contribute to American society. I know this because my parents are immigrants and in 1963, they had waited for two years (and that was lucky!), paid the required fees and proved they had a job to go to once inside the country. They immediately became citizens, learned how to speak english and assimilated into American society. My sister had no ESL classes and simply learned English through immersion. My mother learned it from Sesame Street and I Love Lucy reruns. But that does not mean that any of our heritage has ever been forgotten. Then in the 90s, my father, who had worked as a machinist and tool designer (mostly for the aerospace industry) for 30 years, was forced into early retirement because of the influx of younger and cheaper (although not as experienced) and sometimes illegal workers.
So please don’t tell me that illegal immigrants are only taking jobs that Americans don’t want. I had many friends growing up here that had immigrant parents. The difference with them is that they all waited their turn and with the intent of becoming an American and doing what it took to do so. Why should those today suddenly be given such preferential treatment?
It reminds me of the old Aesop’s fable of the hen that asks for help in baking her bread. All refused to help her, but all wanted a piece of the bread once it had been freshly baked.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
Lydia,
I hear what you’re saying, but you have to be objective. This ‘turn’ you are talking about in reality no longer exists! Now the only ways to come in are family-based, lottery, or employer based. And the employer-based criteria involves more than just providing you have a job inside the country. Oh, heck no. When its almost impossible to get an employer-sponsored visa for educated people INSIDE the country, talkless of those outside. Evenso, there a strict limits on how many are issued. So the laws have really changed and become stringent since your ancestors moved here. Turn waiting is hardly an option except for the things i just mentioned. Its not as easy as you say, trust me I know cos I’m a non-resident alien. If it was really a matter of waiting 2 (or even 5) years, paying a fee, and proving you had a job and the necessary english proficiency, then where do I sign up????? My dear, things have really changed!!! I’m not supporting illegal entry, but I’m just trying to show you that those who came ealier were more priviledged because the laws were very lax back then as to who can come, how, when, etc. And in most cases (like you said), those immigrants were automatically put on a pathway to american citizenship. Today, its considered ‘gold’ to even be put on a pathway to permanent residence (not even citizenship) by such standards.
Also, I never said that the illegal immigrants are only taking jobs Americans don’t want. I said for the most part they are. But just cos your dad lost his job does not mean that happened across the board/in the majority of cases. In most cases, illegal immigrants do not have the skills to take over such positions. Not to sound harsh, but, please don’t allow your personal and emotional sentiment from your father’s experience support an excuse to generalize negatively about illegal aliens.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
You think Immigrant Reform wont effect you?
You’re Wrong!
Immigrants are a huge part of this county, and forcing them to leave is going to have a serious backlash on all US Citizens.
No, I’m not just talking about all of the employers that will be forced to close their business because they no longer have enough employee’s, nor am I talking about the lack of workers to fill the undesirable positions that many Latinos currently fill.
I am talking about the overwhelming number of people, such as myself, that will be forced to apply for government assistance, because their spouse has been deported from this country.
Hi, I’m Jodi… I AM an American Citizen, my parents, and their parents are from the United States… I can proudly trace my heritage back to my Native American Ancestors.
My husband of 5 years, is Mexican. He has been here illegally for over 10 years.
He currently supports our family of 7, which consists of myself, 5 children, and my husband.
Out of those 5 children, only 2 are his. The other 3 are from a previous marriage.
ALL 5 kids are American Born Citizens.
If my husband is deported, I will be FORCED to apply for government assistance, because I can not afford to work and pay childcare for my children.
Sadly, this is the case for millions of other families, where either 1 parent, or the children are US Citizens, and the other parent is illegal.
Are you willing to have your taxes increased to cover the overwhelming cost that will be created when all of these families are forced to seek financial and medical assistance, because one or both of the parents have been deported?
Most immigrants are here working, they pay taxes for things they can’t even touch. I know my husband pays Federal & State taxes, along with Social Security and Medicare, something he can not utilize.
Our government chooses to see a side of this that benefits them, we need to show them just how wrong they are.
Please make a stand to help families like mine, along with millions of others, by calling your senators.
Tell them you SUPPORT reform that will provide legalization, protecting the rights of Workers, and most importantly, keeping families united.
March 27th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
Mahr, you stated you think that all illegal immigrants should have to go through backround checks to become legal residents.
That is part of the big problem now… do you realize that among the 11million (or more!) illegal’s that are currently inside the US, we have NO information about them whatsoever?
Because they are here illegally, we have no way to prove who they are… we have no birth certificates, no fingerprints, nothing.
If we were to pass legalization, at the very least, we would know who it is we are dealing with.
Aliens would have to go through the backround checks, and fingerprinting INS requires.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
Jodi, your husband of 5 years should have a green card by virtue of his marriage to you, an american citizen. In fact, he should be an american citizen by now. Why do you say he has been here illegally for 10 years. Is he still illegal. Why?
March 27th, 2006 at 10:07 pm
to JR:
sorry JR but to me an immigrant is an immigrant, not a fellon as such, and by the way - it never will be. We can sub divide them into “legal” or “illegal” categories if you will but just by declaring them “felons” will solve absolutely nothing. I’m not sure if you’re aware of it but every felony trial requires jury. If for nothing else, imagine the mess it’s gonna create in our legal system.
Sure you can cross a line in your folder of things “done” and pretend that all those 11 million people just disappeared and that we can start with clean slate now but if you truly truly a bit realistic you will agree that compromise is necessary - compromise that will show these ppl that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And that tunnel is 11 years away. In other words nobody’s giving them flat-out citizenship or flat-out amnesty.
They would first have to keep their jobs for 6 years, then wait for the green card and after additional 5 years they could apply for the citizenship. I think you should address your concern about sneaking over the border specificaly to the Border Patrol agency and its impotency in apprehending “illegals” but not by criminalizing them. Or perhaps you should question INS why does it take for someone who happens to have a sister, say in Phillipiness, for her brother to process her paperwork in roughly 20 years!!!!!! In XXI. century where in a split of a second you can obtain any info you need almost right away.
Dear JR, in light of these facts I’m not surprised there is about 11 million undocumented ppl living in the shadows.
Finally if you happened to read the bill proposed in the Senate it actually also deals with increased border security - nobody’s suggesting to have open borders here, on the contrary. But again also we have to find a way how to deal with the people who are already here: let them be the last in the pipeline for the green cards if you must, let them pay taxes, get their fingerprints, let them learn English, let them learn our values and you will see that in the end it will benefit us all - and guess what, they will come to appreciate it perhaps more than you might know….
you miss the very important distinction between immigrants, who aren’t felons, and people who sneak over the border in contravention to U.S. law
. Unless you’re asserting an inalienable right to enter this country at will, laws be damned, and then to be declared citizens, you’ve conflated two issues that don’t belong together. A nation that has no control of its borders, and which instead throws them open to the world, is committing suicide.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
Let’s think about these few facts:
All illegal immigrants who work in the USA use ‘fake documents’. Fake social security numbers; fake immigration documents…but just think of this: They are still paying taxes!! Yes, every paycheck comes after taxes! IRS deducts the stipulated amount from their paychecks.
The interesting component is this…at the end of the year…people using fake social security are not going to claim a income tax return (of course not!! they can’t!)..so..where is all that money that is not returned at the end of fiscal year?
Good question…ask IRS and the government offices involved.
May be the illegal immigration should remain, much of the ‘revenue’ for many government offices comes from the illegal immigration.
In the other hand, LEGAL documented immigrants pays an estimate of $200.00 in order to renew their working permit…make the numbers…let’s think of 20 million people paying $200.00 a year…oh my gosh!!! It’s is a significant revenue for some office somewhere don’t you think?
Make your numbers; apply logical and critical analysis…we may need immigrants after all!! (legal and illegal), they both are a wonderful source of income for our nation!!!!
March 27th, 2006 at 10:09 pm
to JR:
sorry JR but to me an immigrant is an immigrant, not a fellon as such, and by the way - it never will be. We can sub divide them into “legal” or “illegal” categories if you will but just by declaring them “felons” will solve absolutely nothing. I’m not sure if you’re aware of it but every felony trial requires jury. If for nothing else, imagine the mess it’s gonna create in our legal system.
Sure you can cross a line in your folder of things “done” and pretend that all those 11 million people just disappeared and that we can start with clean slate now but if you truly truly a bit realistic you will agree that compromise is necessary - compromise that will show these ppl that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And that tunnel is 11 years away. In other words nobody’s giving them flat-out citizenship or flat-out amnesty.
They would first have to keep their jobs for 6 years, then wait for the green card and after additional 5 years they could apply for the citizenship. I think you should address your concern about sneaking over the border specificaly to the Border Patrol agency and its impotency in apprehending “illegals” but not by criminalizing them. Or perhaps you should question INS why does it take for someone who happens to have a sister, say in Phillipiness, for her brother to process her paperwork in roughly 20 years!!!!!! In XXI. century where in a split of a second you can obtain any info you need almost right away.
Dear JR, in light of these facts I’m not surprised there is about 11 million undocumented ppl living in the shadows.
Finally if you happened to read the bill proposed in the Senate it actually also deals with increased border security - nobody’s suggesting to have open borders here, on the contrary. But again also we have to find a way how to deal with the people who are already here: let them be the last in the pipeline for the green cards if you must, let them pay taxes, get their fingerprints, let them learn English, let them learn our values and you will see that in the end it will benefit us all - and guess what, they will come to appreciate it perhaps more than you might know….
March 27th, 2006 at 10:14 pm
“But I suspect that what you are really worried about is the “wrong” races, (ie. brown and black peoples) in your midst.”
Yeah that explains why African-Americans have even more negative attitudes toward illegal immigration than white people…
March 27th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
Joseph,
We were told the only way my husband can become a legal citizen is to leave the US for a minimum of 1 year, maximum of 10 years before he can become a legalized.
By that time, we had already been together a year, and he was supporting my 3 children, and myself… it wasn’t a option for us to have him leave.
We have talked to numerous attorney’s, as well as many other people in the same situation, and we are always told the same thing.
Wait, wait and wait some more… unless there are some changes in immigration laws, then my husband will remain a illegal immigrant, with no rights.
I live with a daily fear that my husband can be deported, and my children will ultimately have to pay the price.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:47 pm
Lydia says: “… The difference with them is that they all waited their turn and with the intent of becoming an American and doing what it took to do so. Why should those today suddenly be given such preferential treatment?
And what if you are in a binational same-sex relationship with an american citizen? And there is no provision on the Immigration and Naturalization Act to allow a citizen to sponsor his same-sex partner? That the immigration treats you as a second class citizen just before you’re gay? What if you have a foreign same-sex partner for over 10 years who had to overstay his visa because that was the only way you 2 could be together? Married couples can sponsor someone they met yesterday and married today. Same-sex relationships of over 10 years mean nothing under immigration laws.
What if your same-sex partner who’s been here illegally for over 10 years has a 5-year BS degree and could have been earning over $100K/ year and paying income tax on that amount for the last 10 years, instead of having to work as self-employed and making 1/10th of that amount on jobs not-related to his degree(although still paying income taxes).?
Should your same-sex partner be deported after being in a loving and caring relationship with you for over a decade? Would it be a “preferential treatment” (like Lydia said) if your partner is allowed, finally, to obtain legal status? There’s no “waiting their turn” for same-sex binational same-sex couples.
So, as you can see, the law is not fair and doesn’t treat everyone equally. Also, not all illegal immigrants are Mexican border crossers. And not all illegal immigrants are uneducated.
March 27th, 2006 at 10:52 pm
Israel, not all immigrants use Fake Social Security Cards (although, the majority do, since you can buy a SSN & ID on most corners in major cities)
My husband uses a ITIN (Individual Taxpayer Identification Number) to pay in all his taxes.
This number is issued by the IRS to collect all the tax monies from immigrants here illegally.
*********************************
Immigration issues are not as black and white as they seem.
There are so many complex issues that no one is touching…
For instance, has anyone even stopped to consider where all the children, who ARE American Citizens are going to be placed when their parents are deported?
Who is going to ultimately pay the price for all the Foster Care that is going to be dished out?
Because, even though the parents might be illegal, the children aren’t… they have as many rights as any US Citizen.
Or like I said in my post earlier, all the families like mine that will be forced to flood the welfare office for assistance, because 1 or more spouse/parent has been removed from the home.
I do see both sides of the issue, but mass deportation is not the answer.
The best thing to do at this point is to offer another Amnesty, putting a high fee on all applications. (The last Amnesty collect a fee of $1,000.00 per person, grossing more than $1million dollars!)
I would start with a minimum of $2,000., and honestly, double that for their “application fee”.
Fee to be paid in full by the time they receive their legal permanent residency card.
All profits from the money collected from the Amnesty should then in turn be used to stregthen our borders, and add to our border patrol.
Unless the problem is taken care of at the root, it will continue to happen.
March 27th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
“I’m just trying to show you that those who came ealier were more priviledged because the laws were very lax back then as to who can come, how, when, etc”
Joseph, if the laws were so lax back then, then why were there such fewer immigrants allowed in then and so many more immigrants today? Shouldn’t that be the other way around then? There was also a strict limit to how many of my father’s nationality could come in at the time as well. In fact, he would not have been let in at all had it not been for my mother’s nationality.
Also, I’m not talking about just Mexican immigrants either. I know of someone from another country who’s been on a work visa for years working in the film industry. He works in special-effects. I’m a little annoyed that our government hands that out when there’s tons of people here that would love to fill that job. Also, he has no intention of becoming a citizen. That’s the piece of “freshly-baked bread” I’m talking about without having to go through what all others previously had to go through.
It’s clear that you are not the type of person that should be label a felon. It sounds like you have gone through whatever channels are available to you currently. But I am curious as to what the exact obstacles are to your becoming a citizen. Help me to understand what has changed that prevents you from applying for citizenship.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:00 am
Borders are articifial……migration is natural….it’s essential……it’s global….read Robert D. Kaplan’s The Coming Anarchy…spread the wealth……or lose it.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:05 am
[…] By approving the measure 12-6, the Republican-controlled Senate panel demonstrates a the shake-up on the right, in which the president, who had originally skewed the party far from the center, now is surrounded by GOP members to his right and left. In regards to historical immigration reform, this is a positive twist, pending its impact on the House-passed Sensenbrenner bill. IJJ Border Justice Senior Fellow Marc Cooper describes it as: …A huge and welcome political victory for immigration reform advocates who have been working to bring national policies into line with some pretty stark realities. For the first time in 20 years, we see at least one house of congress inching out of the hypocrisy and denial that has characterized U.S. border and immigration policy. […]
March 28th, 2006 at 12:12 am
This is not going to stop. The racist convinced the Media and public debate that we needed to punish immigrants and now the sleeping giant is wide awake. Rallies planned all over the nation. The left is going to get a working poor movement for civil rights. Will it support it or not. Better not. This movement is its own thing.
March 28th, 2006 at 3:27 am
the land of the free,the home of the brave!!
it is very important nowadays specially in the US to include immigrant in the society and not exclude them or make them outcasts!!!
We are not criminals,we would like to participate and play by the rule…We all pay taxes and contribute to live the American dream and not to hide in the shadow!!!
Live and let live…do not penalize me…legalize me!!
Keep in mind that not only Hispanics are concerned here , we have people from every Corner of the Globe living in these situation for years and years. Please Let Us Believe.
March 28th, 2006 at 6:26 am
“Borders are articifial……migration is natural….it’s essential……it’s global”
“spread the wealth……or lose it.”
This exactly what I have always wanted to say. It is so wonderful that you have said it in so few words.
March 28th, 2006 at 6:29 am
Which part of ‘illegal’ do you not understand?
If you have immigrated here legally, then you have rights.
If you are here ILLEGALLY, you should not be here nor be able to benefit from this great country. You are cheating all those that immigrated here LEGALLY.
March 28th, 2006 at 7:46 am
Eleanore kjellberg,
Thank you for posting the article here. It does provide a lot of helpful information. But I need to point out that the debate will not end there. There are many points made in this article that sounds valid given the data and analysis provided in the article. But things can always be looked at in different perspectives. And that is where this article fails.
Since there are so many points being made in this article, I can not address each one of them. I can only address the most important point in this article as I see it. It basically says that America is filling up and can not take in much more people. Therefore illegal immigration has to stop. I agree that space is limited even in America. But there is a way for allowing unlimited number of people to come in even if there is limited space. Just look at New York City. New York City’s land is limited. Yet, people are coming from all over America without any restriction year after year. How can New York City handle it? It is building more buildings, but not at a very high speed. Most New Yorkers live in old buildings. The secret is that as many people move to the city, many move out as well. They move back to where they come from, or move to another place. A lot of native New Yorkers move to other states. Everybody seems to be OK with that. Can the US government design an immigration system that would allow people from other countries come and go as they like? Let them stay as long as they can afford the rent. But if they are caught living on the streets they will be deported. I do not see any harm in doing this.
Another issue I want to talk about is there have been conflicting opinions about the wages illegal immigrants earn. Some who are against illegal immigration say they bring down the wages. But this article is saying that they make more money than some Americans and some Americans would love to take those jobs at those wages. I guess they bring down wages in some cases and take jobs that Americans want in some other cases. Either way, they are threatening Americans’ job security. I have to admit that it not a pleasant thing to have to compete with other people for jobs. But from employers and consumers’ perspective, they want the best employees and the best services they can find. That is how businesses can survive. That is also how a place can be better place to live than another place. American workers should think of what they can do for America to make it a better place to live and take up the challenge from people from other countries. If you are better, you will not loose your jobs.
March 28th, 2006 at 7:48 am
The problem with this debate is the ultereor motives of the partisans on both sides. The Minutemen/Tancredo claims they are not opposed to legal immigration, but refuse to consider expanding the H2-B program or any other legal avenues for brown-skinned people. The Wall Street Journal editorial page/La Raza crowds token words on border security is also transparently insincere: they want open borders, low wages and more power for The Race, never mind the effect this has on CURRENT Americans and CURRENT immigrants struggling to have a decent life here.
The other irony though is that in spite of the phoniness of these aspects of their rhetoric, both sides ALSO make valid points. And the best solution involves not a watered down compromise between the two poles, but a fusing of them. That is to say, take the McCain-Kennedy bill, and add to it the provisions in the House Republicans bill dealing with border enforcement and workplace enforcement.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:02 am
june, Jane Lu — “Borders are articifial”
Name me one other country, now or at any other time and place in history, that has adopted this view.
I believe that the answer is “none”. Given this, my next question: why should we be the first? How is it in OUR interest (by OUR, meaning CURRENT Americans and immigrants)
A country without a border, a country that doesn’t treat its citizens and legal residents DIFFERENTLY than it treats non-residents, IS NOT A COUNTRY.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:07 am
“He currently supports our family of 7, which consists of myself, 5 children, and my husband.
Out of those 5 children, only 2 are his. The other 3 are from a previous marriage.
ALL 5 kids are American Born Citizens.”
As a family of one I question his ability to do this. On what? From what? Why so many children from all over the place with different wives? This is irresponsible on its face. We don’t need more overpopulators.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:12 am
I won’t try to address all the issues, but I’ll try to touch on a couple of points.
First, to me there is a difference between an immigrant here legally and one here illegally, just as there is between a guest I invite into my house and a stranger that climbs through the window.
Second, while there was a “land grab” from Mexico in the 1800’s — several in fact — a country is the people inhabiting it and the values they share more than the land they live on. The people now living in the Southwestern United States are better of (in my opinion) than they would have been under Mexican rule. Of course, Mexico *would* have been better off (they’d have had more oil, for one thing), but I do not believe it would have come close to making up the difference for the people in Texas and California.
Finally, it has got to be one of the stupidest things *ever* to wave Mexican flags at an event trying to influence American public opinion. Non-hispanic Americans who might be willing to listen are more likely to see this as a nationalistic (as in Aztlán) demonstration than an American one. If I were trying to influence Canadian public opinion, I wouldn’t gather half a million of my closest friends and wave the Stars and Stripes. Granted, the DJ’s tried to stress the importance of symbols, but far too many were too (for lack of a better word) ignorant to take the advice. You can bet Tom Tancredo will have some shots of this demonstration when he tries to implement his agenda.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:22 am
Mark A. York,
Since I am the one overpopulating, maybe you should just deport me?
If you will go back and READ what I wrote, I specifically said that I had 3 children from a previous marriage, and ONLY 2 of the 5 children are my husband’s.
You just ASSumed because my husband was Mexican, he was the one overpopulating… but in truth it was me.
It’s the Mexican that is supporting them by working his butt off in a job that pays little to see we are all supported. We don’t require a check from the government, but if he is deported, you can bet your bottom dollar millions like me WILL be applying, because we have no other choice.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:28 am
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
- Does anyone know the meaning of this??
March 28th, 2006 at 8:30 am
I totally agree with Jodi.
I am also married to an “illegal immigrant”, we have two boys together and I have one from a previous marriage. My husband is the most hardest worker I know. I am proud to be married to him. Although my husband is illegal, we own two houses in the United States and he pays the taxes on both of the propertys.
We too are going to have to wait and see how long his application for residence is going to take and how long the government is going to have to punish him to stay in Mexico. I was told that his punishment for crossing illegally can be up to 10 Years. If this was to happen, me and my children would have to go with him or like Jodi said apply for assistance from the government. Although I have a job in a government office (District Attorneys Office) I would not be able to pay mortgage notes and taxes without my husband.
I was born and raised in the United States my father is 1/3 Cherokee Indian and my Grandmother was 1/2. I grew with hispanic people and love there culture. Like JB said Hispanic people would rather be in there own countrys, but sometimes people have to do what they think is best for there families.
I personally know hundreds of illegal immigrants from Mexico and they all say they would rather be in Mexico, then have to live in hiding and in contstant fear of being deported, but they have no choice.
I had a neice who was also married to and “illegal immigrant” they had 5 beautiful children together and one that was hers by a diffrent marriage. Two years ago my neice past away and her husband has been taken care of all of the children including the one that isn’t his. My neice past away before they had time to finish the paperwork to get her husbands papers. He finished applying, but know they are talking about deporting him. I really feel bad for him and my great neices and nephew. If this is to happen he will have to take the children to Mexico with him, the children don’t even know spanish and will be a great change for them. Does anyone have any ideas on how I can help him. The children have a right to be here and he is there father and loves them.
Something needs to be done. Just like Jodi said alot of people will have to go to welfare if this is to happen.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:43 am
I wonder if job competition is such a bad thing (in a Macroeconomic sense). African Americans heading north, women joining the workforce, and previous large immigration waves have all made the job market more competitive. I wonder if this increased competition is part of what’s made America so productive in the last hundred years. Perhaps it put pressure on workers to get educated. Just thinking aloud.
March 28th, 2006 at 8:58 am
“So much for the cockeyed notion that these “illegal” immigrants are a nefarious counter-weight to unionization.”
Marc - you’re really grabbing stuff out of your ass in this discussion. Do you really believe that illegal immigration doesn’t depress wages, nor that illegal immigrants haven’t been a boon to industries - meatpacking, construction and agriculture come first to mind - that have managed to weaken and/or destroy unionized labor over the past several decades. That service unions are beginning to pick up some of the slack doesn’t change the rather stark reality. I find a lot of what you’ve written in these last two posts dishonest and insulting to the intelligence of anyone who’s not simply echoing your angle - and it is an “angle” - on the issue.
Not that you’re full of it, per se. Just that you’ve let yourself be overcome by events.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:11 am
JB,
Excellent comments, right on the head. I could not have stated it better. I have been making the same argument about the wealth disparity between the north and the south on here for weeks. However, JB, unlike me (you have obviously studied this issue more than I), you have outlined better than I some very specific solutions to this long-time but worsening problem. And like you and Marc, Jody, and Mary; I am dismayed at the subtle (and not so subtle) bigotry coming out of this.
And a “thank you” as well to you, Marc, for some on-target work here.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:13 am
What, no Bill Bradley? Maybe la migra busted him back to his aryan nation. You can never be sure who doesn’t have their papers in this country.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:17 am
No, I haven’t had time to read all the comments, but I’ll make a statement, anyway.
The only REAL reason that supporters want citizenship for 12,000,000 illegal aliens is because they are confident that they can buy their loyalty to become good union members and Democratic voters. Other reasons, for the most part, are a smokescreen to avoid the truth.
Naturally, 12,000,000 illegal immigrants would make both good union members and Democrats, as exhibited by their first act as they entered the U.S.–breaking the law.
We don’t need more hyphenated-Americans as citizens and voters, especially when they are simply here for the money, do not understand our nation’s founding and our systems, do not want to share our language and culture, and who ignore our laws. But, of course, you may want this for your own selfish reasons and agenda–and, you would be wrong, too.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:22 am
I sorry so many people out there are so closed minded as i read here. My family was some of the first immigrants to settle here and my family has paid the price in blood for others to have that same freeedom. If someone takes a job for min wage to clean the bathrooms or work in microsoft if they get the position bully for them.
Most of you never venture outside of your tvs to see the real world. Never been to another country to see a family fighting to live or a child die from no food. I feel shame to be called a american becuase of you act like we as Americans are better no i say we are just more fortunate than they are and i hope we will never be a nation closed minded ingrates that i read here.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:25 am
There presently is NO LEGAL WAY for the majority of people to enter this country legally. THERE IS NO LINE! People keep saying that they should get in line but there is not one. If you do not come from England, Canada or another rich country….THERE IS NO LINE. I wish that the media would mention this.
If you are from a poor country and are not rich, the only option available to you to immigrate to the US is the Visa Lottery. This is a random system where the INS selects from a list of hundreds of millions of applicants and selects a few for a green card. You have a better chance of winning a million dollars in the state lottery.
These people are not Felons. The presently law lists undocumented presence as a Civil Infraction. If we listen to some on this board and in the media, all people with civil infractions such as speeding tickets and so on should be required to pay for them for the rest of their lives… anything else would be amnesty. If congress changes the law to make them felons, they will be barred from ever returning to the US because the current law also states that no visa can be issued to anyone convicted of a felony.
I for one am happy that the senate is considering fixing some of the problems with the immigration system rather than closing their eyes and hoping it goes away.
What is the solution that the house bill is proposing? To make it so difficult on 11 million people here that they have no means to survive and die? I’d hardly call it American, and certainly not Christian.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:33 am
“that have managed to weaken and/or destroy unionized labor over the past several decades.”
Economic liberalization, capital mobility, and globalization have done far more in this endeavor. Furthermore, were it not for these three factors, your point would be moot.
Moreover, if these three aforementioned factors remain, but there WERE NO immigrants, would things be any different? If it were not immigrants, there would be some other poor but convenient scapegoat to blame for the fact that unions are declining in power. Jobs are being outsourced to anyone willing to work for the cheap. I have talked with phone representatives (at least two) who worked in India. Prisons are also taking away work from unionized shops.
Some Democrats and MANY Republicans in Congress have made immigrants a target because frankly, in my opinion, they want to distract Americans from the fact that their neo-liberal economic policies are in fact the reason that their jobs are going elsewhere, and also why their wages are falling. The “Immigration Problem” is a trojan horse.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:36 am
“And like you and Marc, Jody, and Mary; I am dismayed at the subtle (and not so subtle) bigotry coming out of this.”
Mr. Cummings,
I don’t only think of myself or my family in this regard. I think about the millions that are in the same situation as me.
“Naturally, 12,000,000 illegal immigrants would make both good union members and Democrats”
Woody,
My husband is illegal I’m not, my husband and me both talk about the political cantidates and he knows how the system works, Oh by the way, I vote on a Republican Ballot every year.
March 28th, 2006 at 9:36 am
“Naturally, 12,000,000 illegal immigrants would make both good union members and Democrats, as exhibited by their first act as they entered the U.S.–breaking the law.”
You really don’t get out much, do you Woody?
March 28th, 2006 at 9:57 am
Majority of Americans are racist. They have persecuted the black people and now they are persecuting immigrants, be they illegal or not. Drawn from experience, I came across a lot of Americans who are just plainly lazy. I salute the Americans that I have met who were more hardworking than the immigrants and who excel in their field without taking advantage of others. My husband who works for the government and has been a US Citizen for years has complained to me how lazy his co-workers were. They act as if they’re the boss and would take the credit for a job they didn’t do. Either they don’t deserve their place in the workfield or their just plainly lazy.
And yes, Americans complain that illegal immigrants steal their jobs. These illegal immigrants have been used, abused, and misunderstood yet they even if they are paid less, they work more than an American would do. They appreciate the job that they have because they are grateful for whatever it is that is given to them and they strive hard. They try to excel in that poor work environment.
Terrorism has got nothing to do with this. Terrorists are not immigrants. Terrorists are just here to instill fear among us. Immigrants just wanted to live in a America so they can make a good life for their family which anyone deserves.
Americans should know their history. They should know what it means to be one. And I believe that in US History they mean-justice, freedom, and equality.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:07 am
markus,
Why there should be no border? Because there should be no country.
I know that this is unrealistic. But it is many Christians’ dream.
In fact, already there is no border in science, technology, economy, etc. We all have the same diseases, use the same telephone system and Internet, etc. In most part of the world, we even watch the same movies. Naturally, there will be one place in the world where research in diseases is the most advanced. And medical researchers around the world want to be in that place. Why people from other countries want to be in America? Because America is the best place in the world for many things. People don’t just come to America to take. They come to contribute, too. America to the world is like New York to America. And US’s past immigration policies contribute to that. If you want America continue to be such a place, you need to continue opening to the world.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:30 am
Is Southern-cracker a “hyphenated-American”?
March 28th, 2006 at 10:31 am
David Cumming, I “got out” to expand my horizons, and it’s raining. Thanks for the suggestion.
I left off that they would be good mafia members, too–but, they’re not Italian. Wait a minute, mafia and union are pretty closely related, so maybe I wasn’t so far off.
Okay, David, I’m tweaking you here. However, despite all the reasons for legalizing these people as citizens, I still feel that they need to “follow the system of laws.” A system of laws that aren’t enforced is no system at all.
And, Sam who quoted the inscription on the Statue of Liberty–that was meant for legal immigrants. I haven’t see a lot of Mexicans stopping off to check in at Ellis Island.
Adios
March 28th, 2006 at 10:33 am
I’m waiting for one of these babbling idiots who’s best shot is crying “racism” to explain to me why African-Americans have tougher views on illegal immigration than any other ethnic group.
Put up or shut up.
This is one of the least coherent, most evasive, bizarrely subjective set of comments I’ve ever seen on anything here - and there’ve been some doozies.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:33 am
John Doe, no more than “Damn-Yankee” is a hyphenated-American.
To Mary, who votes Republican–God bless you.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:41 am
Woody…you’re in your element here. In a duel between you and some of the folks you’re taking on, I think I’d have to pray for a stray bullet to put me out of the misery.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:46 am
Woody
Okay, David, I’m tweaking you here. However, despite all the reasons for legalizing these people as citizens, I still feel that they need to “follow the system of laws.” A system of laws that aren’t enforced is no system at all.
How often do you drive the speed limit and come to a complete stop on a right turn or even stop before the yellow light turns red?
March 28th, 2006 at 10:50 am
Lady Blindfolded, I disagree with the statement that most Americans are racist. While clearly some Americans are racist, *most* Americans are (for lack of a better term) “culturalists.” A black person waving an American flag and speaking English will tend to be looked at more favorably than a white guy waving a foreign flag and speaking a foreign language. Part of what holds a nation together are a shared sense of values and beliefs, and people with different values (or who cannot adequately communicate shared values) will be looked on with suspicion.
Perhaps this is an unproductive attitude, but it certainly is a natural one. I doubt a group of Americans blocking traffic and waving American flags in Mexico would be greeted kindly, but I wouldn’t attribute that to Mexican racism. This is one reason I think that waving Mexican flags at these events is only slightly less counterproductive than burning American ones. Unless Americans feel that immigrants assimilate the values and beliefs of the U.S.(something every wave of immigrants have had to face) — and if necessary, putting their loyalty toward their new home rather than their country of origin — they will be hesitant to allow them American citizenship.
March 28th, 2006 at 10:59 am
snarfangel-Perhaps this is an unproductive attitude, but it certainly is a natural one. I doubt a group of Americans blocking traffic and waving American flags in Mexico would be greeted kindly, but I wouldn’t attribute that to Mexican racism. This is one reason I think that waving Mexican flags at these events is only slightly less counterproductive than burning American ones. Unless Americans feel that immigrants assimilate the values and beliefs of the U.S.(something every wave of immigrants have had to face) — and if necessary, putting their loyalty toward their new home rather than their country of origin — they will be hesitant to allow them American citizenship.
I just believe we are doomed to repeat ourselves like 1940 and the jap internment camps these were Americans treated like spies and non americans. I had hope we as a nation have grown up and matured? Maybe not!
March 28th, 2006 at 10:59 am
While I agree waving flags from different countries was probably not the best idea, I think it was meant to show what country they were from.
There is *no* similarity in someone showing what country they are from by waving their flag, and burning ours.
The majority of immigrants are not terrorist, nor is the Hispanic Population being flagged for terrorism from INS, so it truly amazes me to hear (see) it brought up in conversation.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:06 am
1. Does the United States have the right to limit and control migration into the country?
2. If the answer is yes, then does the United States have the right to inforce messures against people who enter this country illegally?
We have been through this before. In 1986 we granted amnesty. Ronald Reagon felt guilty for his death squads forcing people out of central america and granted amnesty to the people who entered illegally.
Did it work? No.
We have to secure and control imigration into this country. If we decide not to control the border then we need to make Mexico the 51 state.
I am not a racest. I believe that we need immagrents to make this country what it needs to become.
If we grant amnesty to those here now we are only inviting 20 million more to come here illegally. If the people who immagrate to this country would put as much effort in changing the countries were they come from, we would not have the issues that we have. For all those protesting for rights as americans, go home and protest the policies that brought you to my home to start with.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:08 am
jodi-The majority of immigrants are not terrorist, nor is the Hispanic Population being flagged for terrorism from INS, so it truly amazes me to hear (see) it brought up in conversation.
Then why did Immagration and Naturalization Service Change there Name and Turn to HOMELAND SECURITY???? These are questions that should be thought on.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:16 am
I agree lets make Mexico the 51st state the we have a smaller border to patrol. By the way your home ends at the front door of your home then its our land. Which by the way was there land till we took it from them by force and used the words manafest destiny, but our land was there land and the indians land.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:20 am
Jane Lu — thank you for your response. But the very qualities that make America the place that literally hundreds of millions of people would like to come to would be threatened by unmanaged and unregulated immigration.
Under capitalism in America, we aren’t just individuals and citizens — we are labor value widgets. Too many widgets lowers their value, and lowers the quality of life for each of those “widget-persons”, particularly if they are all are speaking different languages.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:24 am
“You just ASSumed because my husband was Mexican, he was the one overpopulating… but in truth it was me.”
No I suspected you were invloved only mistook the ratios. If an illegal working for low wages can support all of these people I’d be surprised just on the economics of it. This really is a numbers game for me. I don’t care who they are or where they come from. I also don’t see how an illegal can gain two mortgages. I guess some of those wages are climbing?
March 28th, 2006 at 11:24 am
Jodi Mosqueda:
>>While I agree waving flags from different countries was probably not the best idea, I think it was meant to show what country they were from.
Very likely true, but most Americans care more about where you are headed rather than where you are from.
Okay, so that’s a bit glib. I will say that one of the reasons the Stars and Stripes are more prominantly displayed here than (for example) French flags are in France is because our people come from *everywhere*. An American flag is a handy shorthand showing the country you consider home. To us, a Mexican flag does not say “I’m an American immigrant,” it says “I’m a Mexican.”
>>There is *no* similarity in someone showing what country they are from by waving their flag, and burning ours.
I think it’s a matter of degree than of kind, but then again, American flags are burned so regularly around the world that it has lost some of its shock value. The only time I really pay attention is to critique the artistic skill of the person who created the flag to be burned — my favorite so far is the one that had five stripes and blue stars on a white field. It was, however, quite flammable.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:34 am
Apparently they don’t need no Ellis Island Woodrow. This thread really does take the cake. If we storm the Canadian border do I get Banff? I’ve always wanted Banff. It’s a dream I have. And, as a hominid who believes in international flyways, like the birds, I should have it. To hell with anyone, including lawmakers, who say otherwise.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:38 am
Mark A York
“I also don’t see how an illegal can gain two mortgages. I guess some of those wages are climbing?”
I suppose you were referring to me, since I am the one who say that I pay a mortgage. As Jodi said read everything, before you say anything. I have two propertys. I own both of them, but I only pay mortgage on one of them, because one is already paid for. Also I work full-time to help my husband. Another point you need to know is my husband is a skilled “illegal immigrant”.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:40 am
“If an illegal working for low wages can support all of these people I’d be surprised just on the economics of it. This really is a numbers game for me. I don’t care who they are or where they come from. I also don’t see how an illegal can gain two mortgages. I guess some of those wages are climbing?”
Where we live my husband makes slightly above minimum wage, but he works a LOT of overtime.
We don’t live in a high priced area though, we paid less than $50k for our home. (After owning a much smaller, cheaper house, repairing and purchasing that one even)
We don’t have 2 mortgages, so I can’t answer that for you… we just get by one what we have now.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:42 am
“Very likely true, but most Americans care more about where you are headed rather than where you are from.
Okay, so that’s a bit glib. I will say that one of the reasons the Stars and Stripes are more prominantly displayed here than (for example) French flags are in France is because our people come from *everywhere*. An American flag is a handy shorthand showing the country you consider home. To us, a Mexican flag does not say “I’m an American immigrant,” it says “I’m a Mexican.””
I agree with you on this 100%
March 28th, 2006 at 11:45 am
I guess the question I have is why is he illegal if he’s skilled? Low wages and long hours is not the American dream. In fact it’s what we fought for years against since long before the robber baron era. How nice to see we figured out how to go that far backwards.
March 28th, 2006 at 11:52 am
Mark A. York
“I guess the question I have is why is he illegal if he’s skilled?”
The reason he is illegal is because of the way the process works. It takes along time to go through the process of getting his citizenship. I guess you could say that he is one the people waiting in line.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
“I guess the question I have is why is he illegal if he’s skilled?”
Because the only option for him to become legal would be to leave the United States for a *minimum* of 1 year, and possible up to 10 years.
To us, as with many others, that is not a option.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
I;M ONE THOSE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS I SUPPOSE , I HAVE STRONG FEELING IF LEGISTLATORS CHOOSE TO GO DIRECTION TO BE DEPORTED ALL IMMIGRANTS. USA WILL LOOSE THEIR HONORABLE IMAGE AT INTERNATIONAL STAGE POLITICALLY, SO ON.
BECAUSE AMERICAN DREAM BUILT UPON IMMIGRATION SINCE USA FOUNDED
ACCORDING TO IMMIGRATION REFORM I CAN SEE POSITIVE EFFECTS ON AMERICAN ECONOMY ESPECIALLY COMMERCIAL AIRLINE ETC .PEOPLE LIKE ME CAN TRAVEL BACK TO MY OWN COUNTRY AT LEAST ONCE IN A YEAR
I’M TALKING ABOUT 11.5 MILLION PEOPLE WILL GIVE MORE AIM ON AIRLINES WHICH SOME OF THEM ON THE VERGE OF BANKRUPTSY
THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, ALSO SPEAKING OF NUMBERS ‘ SOMEONE SAYS IMMIGRANTS HAVING NEGATIVE IMPACT ON US ECONOMY
SCHOOL DISTRICT ‘MEDICAID I CAN NOT TOTALLY AGREE WITH THAT . LET ME HAVE EXAMPLE ON MYSELF .I DO PAY MY TAXES . HEALTH INSURANCE. I DO NOT ASK ANY SUPPORT FROM GOVERMENT NEITHER CHEAT ON THAT BUT I DO KNOW PEOPLE TAKE ADVANTAGE ON THAT MATTER UNFORTUNATLY;
FINAL THOUGHT I LIKE TO LIVE AND WORK
IN USA FOR CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME WITHOUT FEAR.I PROUD OF MY NATIONALITY AS YOU ARE PROUD OF AMERCAN I THINK MOST OF THESE PEOPLE WOULD NOT BE STAY IN AMERICA FOR THEIR LIFETIME’ NOT ME I DO NOT THINK I AM ALONE ON THIS WHICH MEANS GOVERMENT GETTING HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY FROM SOCIAL SECURITY FUNDI LIKE WHAT I DO HERE I DID NOT TAKE SOMEONE’S JOB. I EARNED IT HARD WAY ALONG COMPETITION. WAS NOT FAIR COMPETITION TO AT FIRST. I WANTED THAT JOB SO BADLY IN MY BOSS’S MIND I WAS LAST PERSON HE WOULD TURN TO. HE HIRED 5 PEOPLE ON THAT POSITION MOSR OF THEM WHOM HAD COLLEGE DEGREE COULD QUITE
FIGURE OUT WHAT IT’S POSITION’S REQUIREMENT BUT I DID IS IT MAKE YOU THINK I AM TAKING JOB AWAY FROM AMERICANS ? SO I ‘GOT SHARE A LOT OF THINGS RELATING TO THIS TOPIS IT COULD BE ENDLESS I BETTER CUT IT OFF
LONG LIVE AMERICA
March 28th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
And for the record, INS knows my husband is here, we have applied, he was issued a Visa Number… but the only way for him to get it is if there is some reform to the current laws OR he leaves this country and stays away from his family for what might be up to 10 years.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
I’m in the same boat as you Jodi, as many other american citizens are. Were in between a rock and a hard spot.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
For those of you who feel oppose current legislation, how much do you think it will cost our government to deport more than 11million people?
Who is going to foot that bill?
March 28th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
That should read, ” For those of you who oppose”
Sorry about that!
March 28th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
“guess you could say that he is one the people waiting in line.”
This is way it’s supposed to work. Unless I’m mistaken he’s waiting on a legal process, not working illegally. Illegals cheat him and every other legal immigrant.
March 28th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Mark A. York
“Illegals cheat him and every other legal immigrant.”
How is that? I don’t see how they are hurting anyone. They just want to make a living for there families. I think any american if put in the shoes of and immigrant, they would do the same thing.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
I’m not surprised you don’t see it. I want to make a living too. It’s surprising how few people care if I can or not. However I’m not illegal. I’m not sneeking into Sweden, because hey, I don’t belong to that country.
The citizens of the world don’t belong to the USA either. They take as many as they can take. I don’t expect self-interested players to care. The law and what happens with it is another matter. You’ll see.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Mark A. York
“The law and what happens with it is another matter. You’ll see.”
Yes, we will see. I will betcha anything that the bill that McCain and Kennedy are working on will be pasted and amenisty will be granted.
March 28th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
This whole immigration thing is a mess. I want to make my points.
1. US policy should never be influenced by foreigns. (Mexican government advertised its demands for support for illegals, in amercian papers.)
2. The protests should have been ignored. That would have been a major wake up call.
3. This energy should be turned against the mexican government. Why the heck don’t these half million protestors cry to their own government?
4. No one is complaining about the LEGAL immigrants that went throught the same process that all others have gone through.
5. The amnesty and guest worker programs are going to backfire in a major way.
6. Let’s get over the “they take jobs americans don’t want” crap out of the picture. It’s not true. There will always be an american willing to take that job.
7. The mass illegal immigrants cause way more damage than “economy support”. The facts are there.
8. The fact that illigal immigrants receive benefits and all the other “perks” makes me sick. They actually get paid to breed here.
9. It is true… the quality of life in america is decreasing with every immigrant. In arizona for example, the state is overwhelmed by immigrants, and most are illegal. We actually have hundreds of little mexico’s. They literally take decent neighborhoods (miles worth) and turn them into mexico look-a-like’s. Not a joke.
10. The fact that I have to dial 1 for english on everything… ABSOLUTELY PISSES ME OFF. I’m in freaking america, not mexico. Come on… if I move to mexico, and call my mexican bank, do you thin