Apparently "21st Century Socialism" may soon not include 21st century technology. Not to speak of 18th century basic civil liberties.
Some of y'all were ready to defend Hugo Chavez when he shut down opposition TV stations because, after all, they were just right-wing corporate fascist pro-coup mouthpieces.
Now Chavez is toying with a new idea.
Clamping down on the Internet.
Said Chavez: "The Internet cannot be something open where anything is said and done. Every country has to apply its own rules and norms."
I still wonder when folks will wake up and understand the very obvious truth that this dude is bent on constructing a dictatorial state. The statement comes on the heels of an announcement by Chavez's state telcom agency that is setting up a mechanism through which all Web traffic will be centralized. Quite a people's government -- one which muzzles the people.
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Apparently "21st Century Socialism" may soon not include 21st century technology. Not to speak of 18th century basic civil liberties.
Some of y'all were ready to defend Hugo Chavez when he shut down opposition TV stations because, after all, they were just right-wing corporate fascist pro-coup mouthpieces.
Now Chavez is toying with a new idea. Clamping down on the Internet.
Said Chavez: "The Internet cannot be something open where anything is said and done. Every country has to apply its own rules and norms."
I still wonder when folks will wake up and understand the very obvious truth that this dude is bent on constructing a dictatorial state. The statement comes on the heels of an announcement by Chavez's state telcom agency that is setting up a mechanism through which all Web traffic will be centralized. Quite a people's government -- one which muzzles the people.
March 15th, 2010 at 2:45 am
The Chavez apologist in me can’t help but consider that Chavez would feel differently about the Net if his political base’s streetside pundits blogged.
March 15th, 2010 at 6:11 am
Is it fair to say that we’re witnessing a many-threaded (unconnected) counter-enlightenment? We have the horror at free speech shown by Chinese, Chavez, and even the Australians under the guise of protecting their sensitive citizens from obscenity; we have a resurgence of Christian fundamentalism that denies science, and a resurgence of Islamic fundamentalism that regards heresy as a death sentence. I could go on.
I guess it just shows that the forces that want to control and circumscribe people’s lives are always waiting for their chances and that Chavez is just another sorry little autocrat in this long history of autocrats in that tradition.
March 15th, 2010 at 7:14 am
Chavez has his own web sites. The problem is that they are all repeats of his lies and no one reads them. Thus the coward Chavez has to stop all web sites that do not agree or might not in the future agree with him.
March 15th, 2010 at 7:25 am
Bet you dollar to donuts that nobody on the Pacifica networks will give more than a passing blurb about this nonsense. They’ll probably rail on about how the Greeks are evil because they are stuck in the mess and may have to lay off state workers.
As my Russian roommate used to say ‘I grew up in a country of dictators, I know what a dictator looks like and Chavez is a dictator.’
Until the Left can take their own to task on legitimate issues (openly criticizing guys likes Chavez, calling Kuicinich to the mat for grandstanding on healthcare reform, standing up teachers unions in terms of school reform), we are no more ‘pure’ and care no more about the ‘people’ than the Right.
March 15th, 2010 at 7:43 am
Until the Left can take their own to task on legitimate issues
From day one several of us on the left have been critical of Chavez, myself included.
March 15th, 2010 at 8:04 am
Good Morning!
It appears that POSTER#! has appropriated my handle and is an imposter.
That comment is NOT mine. I sign on with a lower case “p’” (pablo)…
For all of the vituprative remarks made about my prior positions it ismost telling that none counter on substance.
This latest appropriation of my name is evidence of a further descent into infantilism by some frustrated cheap shot artist.
To the topic at hand I think Marc’s piece studiously avoids the context of Chavez’ remarks. First the government is serving notice that internet traffic is monitored for security by the Caracas version of the NSA.
The American NSA presumably ALSO monitors all Venezuelan internet traffic along with yours and mine.
The difference being that the Chavez regime has good reason to feel that there is a direct existential threat to its security.
March 15th, 2010 at 8:25 am
“we have a resurgence of Christian fundamentalism that denies science, and a resurgence of Islamic fundamentalism that regards heresy as a death sentence. I could go on.”
We all have our favorite fundamentalism, but it seems secular fundamentalism is the only fundamentalism that is able to get state funding for theirs in the highly evolved democracies.
Two ways come to mind. Millions in the form of human ‘rights’ commissions and billions in state funded towers of speech and though control at educational institutions.
March 15th, 2010 at 8:52 am
“secular fundamentalism is the only fundamentalism that is able to get state funding for theirs in the highly evolved democracies”
You clearly have an unusual and nonstandard definition of “fundamentalism”. It’s not a synonym for “policy” or “ideology”. Try again.
March 15th, 2010 at 9:01 am
Speaking of education institutions, rumor has it San Fran Nan is planning to insert another big socialist red one into the HCR bill in the form of a gov’t takeover of student loans.
If you want the cost and price of anything to sky-rocket, at the same time remain hidden and out of site, hand it over to Washington politicians.
If you want student loans, fraud, inefficiency and repayment defaults to sky-rocket, hand it over to politicians and their can’t-be-fired gov’t workers. If you want medical cost, price, fraud, inefficiency and price to sky-rocket, hand it over to politicians and 9-to-4 gov’t unions, neither of which get paid or rewarded for improving service and controlling costs….nor fired for not doing it.
There is no motive or reward to provide a better more efficient service. Remove rewards and insert job protections and a guaranteed no-competition customer base and you have created a monster for captive customers, drones for employees, and out-of-control budget deficits, top to bottom.
March 15th, 2010 at 10:09 am
Jim R Says:
March 15th, 2010 at 9:01 am
Speaking of education institutions, rumor has it San Fran Nan is planning to insert another big socialist red one into the HCR bill in the form of a gov’t takeover of student loans.
Riiiiight………and having a bunch of Brooks Brother clad bean counters in Midtown Manhattan and downtown LA playing with people’s futures like a game of cee-lo has worked out so well.
March 15th, 2010 at 10:18 am
hey pablo you cretin… you dont have to be the NSA to monitor all Twitter traffic. All you need is a laptop with Tweetdeck! Twitter is also about to introduce geocoding so it also means that anybody can identify the geographical origin of all Tweets,
I knew I could count on you to temporize this sort of outrageous intimidation and censorship. You join the ranks of the very tiny minority of people in the world who believe what is the most inherently democratic of communication technonology by monopolized by the state. Congratulations and thanks for completing your assigned role in this little ant farm. You get an extra drop of sugar water today.
March 15th, 2010 at 10:21 am
And oh by the way pablo, any government that is existentially threatened by the unfettered exchange of info on the Web and Twitter is a government not worth defending.
March 15th, 2010 at 10:31 am
Jim:
Fundamentally speaking the Age of Enlightenment is based on rationalism, reason, and secularism. It supplanted what was referred to as the Dark Age of ecclessiatical rule.
Taken for granted with secularism is the pluralism afforded. Thus a church can co-exist next to a university and often on the same campus.
However in our system of government only secular institutions can receive state funding.
The Establishment Clause precludes church interference. If that is thought control, Let’s keep it that way.
March 15th, 2010 at 10:54 am
Chavez may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but a dictator? Dictators usually can’t claim to have been twice re-elected in free and fair elections by overwhelming majorities. Dictators don’t put their plans for constitutional changes to a public referendum.
As I recall, the last Chavez item here was on ‘the wave’ of anti-Chavez tweeting in Venezuela, which amounted to 200,000 or so – about the size of the tiny elite that ruled Venezuela for so long with Washington’s and (apparently) Cooper’s approval.
All of you Kennedy-style liberals (no doubt still mourning the end of the Alliance for Progress) need to look at Venezuela with a little more rationality. Whether or not you like Chavez, the Venezuelan people do.
On the one hand, you all piss and moan that single-payer is not do-able (though supported by 70% of the public) and to forget about it. Then you sanctimoniously deride Venezuela’s govt. In many respects they have a better functioning democracy than we do.
March 15th, 2010 at 11:15 am
Marc,
Hugo is a friend of mine quit saying bad things about him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
March 15th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Edwatters: You are simply a fool. But an entertaining one for sure. Let’s see if I got this right. You did the math and you figured out that all tweets in Venezuela come from the elite and they are all approved by me and “Washington.” I see. And yes, I have a long record of supporting Kennedy liberals and the Alliance for Progress, especially when I worked for Salvador Allende and was a member of the Chilean Socialist Party. Genius.
Do you know, moron, that Twitter can be accessed by cell phones and that such devices are EXTREMELY common among Venezuelan workers? Or do you believe they are too busy constructing socialism to tweet? My God, where do you people come from? How much do I have to pay you to just go away and hide under a rock?
March 15th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
I honestly do find it remarkable how much (certain segments of) the left is willing to apologize for dictatorship as long as they think it’s anti-imperial.
It’s revealing in that their allegiance isn’t to human emancipation, but instead to this really narrow view of anti-capitalism which treads over all else.
The worst of it is that they dress it up in the language of freedom and emancipation, but they accept any old repression as long as it comes from the fetishized ranks of the revolutionary third world. In that case, it’s not repression, it’s a logical response to an existential threat (or some other anti-liberal nostrum designed to make them feel better about, it all).
If you really have allegiance to a set of principles about maximizing human freedom, then you’ll find yourself equally critical of, for example, the excesses of American foreign policy, and the murders of the beloved Che. It’s really not that complicated.
But this segment of the left is made so deranged by the existence of the US, that anything goes as long as it’s the opposition. Even better if it’s dressed up in the romantic struggle of poor brown people. Evidently this remains true even when they’re rich and privileged, or when they led a coup against an elected government like the exalted Mr. Chavez did in 1992 (how convenient that that fact is never mentioned).
March 15th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
I’ll just note one thing that disturbs me in the context of US domestic politics – you have to move pretty far to the left to find Chavez supporters who make far-fetched apologetics for his authoritarian policies that are as removed from reality as the average GOP congressperson, FOX News maven – or Ex. Governor – attempting to pollute the waters of domestic political discourse with crap like “death panels” as part of HCR.
Chavez looks like he’s increasingly a problem for his people. “Our” Chavez supporters as a significant bloc on the liberal left ? Not so much. You pretty much have to go to the least critical segment of Nation subscribers to find these folks. They’re there – but they don’t dominate liberal discourse the way crazies and shameless demagogues increasingly tend to “inform” the folks who currently pass themselves off as “conservatives.”
Just saying…
March 15th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Marc, when it comes to coverage of Allende’s Chile or immigration, you speak knowledgeably, rationally and with compassion. But when the topic is Venezuela, you rant like a madman. I’m not going to try to ponder what sort of psycho-emotional mechanisms lead you to become unglued on this topic but you really need to make your case that Venezuela is on the verge of dictatorship. After all, isn’t it a bit unusual for a dictator to win two uncontroversial elections, or to lose a referendum and behave graciously afterward?
Also, is it not reasonable for a government that has already been subjected to a Washington-inspired coup to take steps against small, circumscribed elements in that society that are allied with the coup instigator, especially when Washington has significantly increased its military presence in the country next door?
March 15th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Marc seethes:
“I knew I could count on you to temporize this sort of outrageous intimidation and censorship. You join the ranks of the very tiny minority of people in the world who believe what is the most inherently democratic of communication technonology by monopolized by the state.
———————————–
Then you would also know who has appropriated my handle at 3:20 AM and posted under my name.
Democratic communication begins at home. I have been unflaggedly polite in my posts and thus am being derided for content.
You on the other hand if you DO practice what you preach regarding net freedom would take a peek at the ISP of the imposter and clamp down.
Here is where you fall short in your analysis.
The Rueters article says that Chavez has made threats (emplyed thetoric) to clamp down on the net. I suppose that this could have a chilling effect on those who might believe that they have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their communications.
To some extent they (as we) do carry this expectation… that is until we become a “person of interest’ and then bingo, everything you ever wrote can show up on Good Morning America.
This sudden embrace ofunfettered free expression, Marc, makes you sound as if that the state has no interest in its own security. It would be duplicitous to claim that US security does not monitor free expression on the web.
I daresay that that Chavez-like monitoring of internet dissent is commonplace in the region and the developing world as a whole. I don’t like it one bit while at the same time realize full well that we tend to illuminate the miscreants according to an ideo-script.
There are stories of state security monitoring net traffic and subsequently arresting persons in Mexico, The Dominican, Cuba, Colombia, Hondouras, El Salvador, and Panama. Thus the issue of net freedom of expression is subordinated to the issue of who is accused.
Almost like an ant farm I drop in on now and again.
But I wish to press the issue. Pls have the imposter retract the messege posted in my name and at a minimum pls remove it from this thread.
Thanks.
March 15th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
Wiki-wacko…the guy has always been a fascist in training:
At age seventeen, Chávez enrolled at the Venezuelan Academy of Military Sciences. After graduating in 1975 as a sub-lieutenant with a degree in Military Arts and Science, Chávez entered military service for several months. He was then allowed to pursue graduate studies in political science at the Simón Bolívar University, but left without a degree.[5]
Chávez initially entered active-duty military service as a member of a counter insurgency battalion stationed in Barinas. Chávez’s military career lasted 17 years, during which time he held a variety of posts including command and staff positions, eventually rising to the rank of lieutenant colonel. Chávez also held a series of teaching and staffing positions at the Academy of Military Sciences,
March 15th, 2010 at 7:08 pm
Pablito/Sergio et al: Chavez’ background hardly is that of a revolutionary despite his bouts of fiery rhetoric and criticism of the gov before he took over. He has been TRAINED to be an asshole and studied assiduously to be one.
March 15th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
Hi Anna:
I’m not a big fan of HC… hardly the point as I am not Venezuelan…not that would matter when access to oil is threatened… but have sympathy for his undergoing a Bush inspired coup which may well have cut short his life in the offing.
After which he exercised relative restraint against the coup plotters (which would have bent sent to the wall by the less patient).
None of that, nor my feeling about his regime is at issue. His bombastic announcement of internet survaillance is unique in the region only in that he opened his mouth while the feigned indignant howls coming from Washington and our host who drool at any chance in destabilizing his regime by any means necessary.
March 15th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
“At age seventeen, Chávez enrolled at the Venezuelan Academy of Military Sciences…
Yeah, I guess that’s where he learned how to renegotiate the operating contracts of the huge multinationals like Royal Dutch Shell that had for decades stolen the country’s natural resources, bribing govt officials into offering ridiculously low tax rates etc.
What a bunch of clowns. I’m outta here…
March 15th, 2010 at 9:28 pm
If only.
March 15th, 2010 at 10:09 pm
If liberals had to vote for Hugo Chavez or Sarah Palin in a popularity contest, I think I know who would win.
March 15th, 2010 at 10:33 pm
Anna, not only are you unstable and paranoid, you’re also stupid.
March 17th, 2010 at 2:19 am
I appreciate your posts Anna. Can’t say the same about Sergio.
To those who think the only way to defend the viability of a (wannabe) socialist state is through government repression and censorship, the point is a simple one: there is no socialism without democracy and free speech. Go read your Orwell.