Photo: 1966. Prime Minister Nguyen Cao Ky Reassures LBJ: "Don't Worry. Be Happy!"
What a
fool I've been. I thought we were spending $200 billion and investing untold number of American lives to help
bolster the Iraqi government. But apparently I had it wrong. Turns out to be the other way around. The Iraqi government is
propping up the Bush campaign.
When the Bush-Allawi "Be Happy, Don't Worry Tour" hit Washington D.C. the Iraqi Prime Minister directly intervened into our presidential election process by
openly endorsing the incumbent and direly warning that "doubters" like Kerry would help the other side.
``I understand why, faced with the daily headlines, there are those doubts,'' Allawi said. ``But these doubters underestimate our country and they risk fueling the hopes of terrorism.''
Not much of a surprise, really, that Allawi would be
allergic to the very democratic notion of citizens and for that matter candidates raising doubts about national war policy in the midst of an election (personally, I can't think of a
better time).
Let's remember that the Prime Minister entered politics as a loyal toady inside Saddam Hussein's
fascist Ba'ath Party. After he broke with Saddam, Allawi lived off the teat of the CIA and probably didn't spend much time going to Democracy School.
Now, he shows up here and tells us how to vote? Puh-leeze.
In painting a rosy picture of Iraq's current fix, Allawi said 14 to 15 of Iraq's 18 provinces are safe. ``If you look at Iraq properly,'' he said in the White House Rose Garden, `there are no problems. It's safe. It's good.''
What Allawi failed to say is that those 3 or 4 no-go provinces include the entire Sunni third of the country including Baghdad. All told, that's about
half the population of Iraq.
Watching the Rosy Duo in the Rose Garden on TV today, you could see the ghost of
LBJ hovering behind them and smiling knowingly. There was Bush trotting out the very hoary line that if
we don't fight them there we'll be fighting them here. Senseless enough a formula in the days of Vietnam. Almost delusionally detached in the case of Iraq. It was a gross manipulation of patriotism and a cheap scare tactic with absolutely
no factual basis.
These sort of deceptions can produce
short-term political advantage. In the long run they usually boomerang and
consume their authors. Nothing is more deadly than eventually succumbing to one's own propaganda. Ask JBJ.
You have to wonder: Ten years from now, if he survives, will Allawi be running a liquor store somewhere down in Orange County? Didn't
Marshal Nguyen Cao Kyput his little bottle shop up for sale recently?
UPDATE: This just in from
Josh Marshall, quoting his blog:
An amazing exchange from Jim Lehrer's interview this evening with Iyad Allawi, which opens and shuts the case on the latter's credibility about anything.
JIM LEHRER: What would you say to somebody in the United States who questions whether or not getting rid of Saddam Hussein was worth the cost of more than a thousand lives now and billions and billions of U.S. dollars?
PRIME MINISTER IYAD ALLAWI: Well, I assure you if Saddam was still there, terrorists will be hitting there again at Washington and New York, as they did in the murderous attack in September; they'll be hitting also on other places in Europe and the Middle East.
So, if we hadn't invaded Iraq we'd be experiencing repeated 9/11s, with similar events in Europe in the Middle East.
Is it necessary to say that, despite all the bad things Iraq's Baathist regime represented and did, there is no evidence (pace Laurie Mylroie) that it ever attempted, let alone succeeded in mounting, any sort of terrorist attack on the American mainland?
Presumably the dramatic loss of credibility suffered if the US had failed to invade Iraq would have led to a sudden reversal of Baathist policy and a sudden unleashing of a wave of Mukabarat terrorist strikes on the American mainland.
Every so often you just have to sit back and marvel at the Twilight Zone we're living in at the moment.
Twlilight Zone, indeed.
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Photo: 1966. Prime Minister Nguyen Cao Ky Reassures LBJ: "Don't Worry. Be Happy!"
What a fool I've been. I thought we were spending $200 billion and investing untold number of American lives to help bolster the Iraqi government. But apparently I had it wrong. Turns out to be the other way around. The Iraqi government is propping up the Bush campaign.
When the Bush-Allawi "Be Happy, Don't Worry Tour" hit Washington D.C. the Iraqi Prime Minister directly intervened into our presidential election process by openly endorsing the incumbent and direly warning that "doubters" like Kerry would help the other side.
``I understand why, faced with the daily headlines, there are those doubts,'' Allawi said. ``But these doubters underestimate our country and they risk fueling the hopes of terrorism.''
Not much of a surprise, really, that Allawi would be allergic to the very democratic notion of citizens and for that matter candidates raising doubts about national war policy in the midst of an election (personally, I can't think of a better time).
Let's remember that the Prime Minister entered politics as a loyal toady inside Saddam Hussein's fascist Ba'ath Party. After he broke with Saddam, Allawi lived off the teat of the CIA and probably didn't spend much time going to Democracy School.
Now, he shows up here and tells us how to vote? Puh-leeze.
In painting a rosy picture of Iraq's current fix, Allawi said 14 to 15 of Iraq's 18 provinces are safe. ``If you look at Iraq properly,'' he said in the White House Rose Garden, `there are no problems. It's safe. It's good.''
What Allawi failed to say is that those 3 or 4 no-go provinces include the entire Sunni third of the country including Baghdad. All told, that's about half the population of Iraq.
Watching the Rosy Duo in the Rose Garden on TV today, you could see the ghost of LBJ hovering behind them and smiling knowingly. There was Bush trotting out the very hoary line that if we don't fight them there we'll be fighting them here. Senseless enough a formula in the days of Vietnam. Almost delusionally detached in the case of Iraq. It was a gross manipulation of patriotism and a cheap scare tactic with absolutely no factual basis.
These sort of deceptions can produce short-term political advantage. In the long run they usually boomerang and consume their authors. Nothing is more deadly than eventually succumbing to one's own propaganda. Ask JBJ.
You have to wonder: Ten years from now, if he survives, will Allawi be running a liquor store somewhere down in Orange County? Didn't Marshal Nguyen Cao Kyput his little bottle shop up for sale recently?
UPDATE: This just in from Josh Marshall, quoting his blog:
September 23rd, 2004 at 6:57 pm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1310284,00.html
Allawi should talk to science professors sometime about reality in the real Iraq
Or with doctors:
http://www.iht.com/articles/540294.html
September 23rd, 2004 at 7:33 pm
Marc, your cynacism is showing. Sometimes that is a good thing, but not always. Sometimes it’s just to hype up the ABB vote, perhaps after feeling guilty about denegrating Kerry.
Or maybe not.
September 23rd, 2004 at 7:36 pm
Marc,
Ouch! Pretty ugly words…..can you see no good things in todays speeches?
September 23rd, 2004 at 7:50 pm
Ouch! Pretty ugly words…..can you see no good things in todays speeches?
–Bush declared to the world he was disregarding the CIA report on Iraq is a positive in my book.
September 23rd, 2004 at 8:04 pm
Nope.. I didnt see anything positive today. So mark me down as a “doubter.” Indeed tomorrow or over the weekend Im going to post on why the elections dont matter much either. Sorry.
To GM: Oh u’ve got me wrong. I NEVER feel guilty about bashing Kerry. Never, never, never!
I just call them as I see ‘em. I dont know that Kerry would handle Iraq better, but he couldnt do worse. If Bush had stuck to his campaign promise to not engage in nation-building I’d feel a lot better. But Im not willing to invest another decade’s worth of young lives and billion of dollars in an Iraqi project which shows little inclination to tilt our way.
September 23rd, 2004 at 8:46 pm
I guess “perspective” is everything. Well I have a perspective also, albeit a futuristic probablity at present, but it goes something like this: Dubbya wins in November, and we bleeding-heart liberals and clear thinkers, so many Cat Stevens tune-humming groopies with nothing on our agenda besides practicing a little radical empathy towards the huddled masses, find ourselves being slowly and precisely eradicated from this society, labled as unworthy of the title “Patriot”, unfit to coexist within the “Brave New World” envisioned by Dubbya and Daddy. John Kerry better get off of his ass, cause Johnny Ashcroft is probably gonna see this and toast my liberal carcass. Continue to fight the “good fight” Marc, because in the end it’s all that truly matters in this life.
September 24th, 2004 at 12:36 am
I was about to echo GMRoper, when I remembered why I LIKE this site so much — sour & dour extraordinaire against ALL the pompous Bush, Kerry, Allawi bums.
So I’m smiling … ’cause ex-Toady Allawai IS a bastard … but he’s our / Bush’s bastard. (deja vu again!)
Until elections in January, anyway — when he’ll prolly win in some, 15 of 18 provinces maybe.
Um, when the USA followed Kerry’s 71 advice Peace Now … there was peace and genocide in SE Asia. That’s better than Bush???
Without having read the CIA report, isn’t it possible the chaos & civil war occurs when the US is not engaged enough, that is, following Kerry’s plan? I mean, there SHOULD be some report of what happens in Iraq if we pull out now, or before elections, or too soon after elections.
It is good to note how expensive “nation-building” is. But there ARE benefits, too.
September 24th, 2004 at 5:32 am
“Um, when the USA followed Kerry’s 71 advice Peace Now … there was peace and genocide in SE Asia. That’s better than Bush???”
You mean after we slaughtered a few million Southeast Asians ourselves? Turning vast patches of land into moonscape (and the Plain of Jars in Laos into an active mine field for years after)? Poisoning the environment with massive amounts of chemical weapons, causing disease and starvation? Backing the Khmer Rouge after the Vietnamese tossed them out? Is that the noble heritage you’re referring to?
September 24th, 2004 at 5:44 am
It is good to note how expensive “nation-building” is. But there ARE benefits, too.
–hepatitis E, typhoid, cholera, selling off of national industries to American companies, dumping of foreign goods on local markets,…the benefits are just endless…no wonder Iraq is on the way to becoming Japan…
September 24th, 2004 at 12:39 pm
“I dont know that Kerry would handle Iraq better, but he couldnt do worse.”
I would consider pulling troops early to be worse. That alone would seem enough reason for Allawi to support Bush.
September 24th, 2004 at 1:16 pm
I would consider pulling troops early to be worse. That alone would seem enough reason for Allawi to support Bush.
–Allawi’s support for Bush would be another positive thing for Kerry, therefore, I support Allawi’s support for Bush wholeheartedly.
September 24th, 2004 at 1:22 pm
“But Im not willing to invest another decade’s worth of young lives and billion of dollars in an Iraqi project which shows little inclination to tilt our way.”
I came across a great essay. It was in a mag a friend gave to me called THE BELIEVER (April issue – http://www.thebelievermag.com). I never got around to reading it until last night. It is written by Tom Bissell and is about The Gulag Archipelago. It is perhaps one of most sensible essays about Iraq that I have written (it should have been in something like The Nation).
He has some good quotes like:
“From the Gulag Archipelago had told me this: one must fight totalitarianism and never apologize for doing so. The sick brilliance of totalitarian regimes is that they are beyond diplomacy. They are only movable by war-provided that they do not crack from within”
He goes on to say:
“the war in Iraq was morally wrong, tactically dubious, and probably illegal, while, at the same time, and very nearly impossibly, I believe that the removal from power of Saddam Hussein was a great moral accomplishment, however large the windfall for Halliburton, and however insincere and dishonest the Bush administrations reasons for doing so… all I can do now is hope for its success and freedom for Iraqis… that I detest the man conducting this war is finally immaterial. There is no other option… I may not like it, I may in fact hate it, but we as a nation have crossed the threshold magnitude, one of great potential good, only skeptical and determined benevolence will prevent us from turning to vapor.”
The essay also talks about historical Left wing support of totalitarianism via Stalinism and currently, people like Katha Pollits indifference to the neo-Stalanists in ANSWER and the outright support that Naomi Klein give to Islamic totalitarianism.
He also talks about “the gauntlet Samantha Power’s book had thrown down in me” and how that book effected his perception of this war. Maybe reexamining the chapter on Iraq in that fine book will help put things in perspective, and help you see that good can come out of this mess.
September 24th, 2004 at 1:25 pm
all I can do now is hope for its success and freedom for Iraqis…
–I myself also hope that cows can fly over the moon…
September 24th, 2004 at 1:27 pm
Corrections:
I did not write the essay. The sentence should read:
“It is perhaps one of most sensible essays about Iraq that I have read(it should have been in something like The Nation).”
Also
This needs to be corrected.
The essay also talks about historical Left wing support of totalitarianism via Stalinism and currently, people like Katha Pollits indifference to the neo-Stalanists in ANSWER.
The essay reveals how something like the outright support that Naomi Klein has given to Islamic totalitarianism is a historical pattern within the American Left.
September 24th, 2004 at 2:15 pm
Marc,
I can see it now, all the money Theresa Heinz Kerry has spent and all that she has been saying has just been propping up the Bush campaign. Or perhaps not. But it isn’t like the Bush campaign needs propping up with a stooge like Kerry as the opposition.
You are suffering the effects of Bush Derangement Syndrome. At current rates, the effects should pass in four and a half years.
September 24th, 2004 at 2:57 pm
The essay reveals how something like the outright support that Naomi Klein has given to Islamic totalitarianism is a historical pattern within the American Left.
–you just make stuff up. klein has never given anything like ‘outright support’ to ‘islamic totalitarianism’. can’t you make any arguments without putting words in people’s mouths? your last such fake claim was that I was a pacifist…is fake claims your best?…
September 24th, 2004 at 4:56 pm
What was that Steve? Can’t hear you.
September 24th, 2004 at 6:39 pm
I said, “long live democracy”
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/occupation/2004/0513usgrip.htm
September 24th, 2004 at 8:38 pm
Just read the WSJ’s ed today on Allawi’s puppet show in DC, and it reminded me of Pravda’s takes on the SU’s fave “leaders” in E. Europe. Mandatory uplift and marching orders to proceed as planned. So happy to see that we won the Cold War . . .
September 24th, 2004 at 9:12 pm
Steve.. I have listened to the counsel of other readers here who have pleaded for mercy on ur behalf, temporarily bestowing upon you a stay of execution. But im really tempted to pull the plug on you. If you have an argument to make, make it and then sit back. A blog full of one line snide rejoinders from you is really boring and off putting.
September 24th, 2004 at 10:32 pm
I quite disagree with your reading actually. Those who have spoken up on my behalf are 1) those who have had real disagreements with me on this list, 2) productive dialogues, and 3) have not asked for ‘mercy’ for me, they have recognized that you react differently toward my posts than you do the likes of a Legere who posts endless screeds filled with shrill nonsense about “Muslims this” and “Muslims that” and false accusations of everything under the sun about my politics and “pacifism”. They notice that you tolerate snide comments from Roper or attacks on people’s “patriotism” from people like Totten or Grey, and when all else fails, nasty ugly name calling that is based on little recognizably civil.
You tolerate name calling from right wingers and prowar folk and go ape when anyone sarcastically responds to such tactics.
And if anything is boring, it’s the way you ignore the substance of the comments made most recently by rosedog or bonnie on the tone of my posts [and I concede rosedog had some polite criticisms to make] or the substance and insist, in lieu of actual engagement with arguments from those who disagree with you from the left, to pit anyone who disagrees with you from the left as some worshipper of amy goodman.
Why not come to grips with the reality that people on the left who disagree with you, be it myself, or dennis perrin, or doug henwood are not as you stereotype us. I’ve publicly criticised (on Henwood’s list) the role, for example, that Goodman has played in pushing unnecessarily conspiracy theory. I’ve criticised her for her bizarre worship of the Dalai Lama on Doug’s list. I’ve criticised her for pushing the CNN Tailwind Tale and even promoted Jerry Lembcke’s books on The Myth of the Spat on Vietnam Vet, whom you’ve had on *twice* on your show for interviews.
Yet, when faced with criticism from the left from a person whose politics is essentially similar to someone you tell us is a good friend of yours, namely Doug Henwood,…[or god forbid i use a sarcastic jibe at a Totten or Legere who make all kinds of false claims about my 'pacifism' 'support for Al Sadr'...'terrorism'...'totalitarianism'...'] you call out the bullying stick of the ever present banning threat.
It is sad that you can’t see that people who think myself who think like your good friend Doug Henwood are not the enemy.
September 25th, 2004 at 12:26 am
Santo,
It not fair to compare the actions in DC to those of Pravda. The actions in DC were election spin in a flawed but potentially fixable democracy. As bad as things are in the USA they do not share much of anything with Stalanism. Read Appelbaum’s Gulag.
The Left needs some serious history education. We do not live in a Fascist or Totalitarian state. We live in a country with a nonexistent opposition (The Left) and an indulgent majority party.
History matter. You only make yourself and the opposition look silly when you make Pravda comparisons.
The Left (is in the grips of its own brand of indulgencies. Have you not seen the 100′s of Bush books? Have you not read Naomi Klein, Alexander Cockburn, Noam Chomsky, Zinn, Nader, Vidal, Sontag, etc…? How about Michael Moore and Pacifica Radio? Some on the left are even indulging 911 conspiracy theories.
On November 3rd (Kerry or Bush) the sane forces on the left have some serious regrouping to do. Hopefully this will include new voices, new analysis of recent left/opposition history, and purging of irrelevant ideas and voices. If not the wilderness will only get more lonely.
The good news is that the American Left is filled with smart voices that cannot get a word in at the moment. Throw away those copies of EMPIRE and lets talk turkey and make some positive changes.
September 25th, 2004 at 12:33 am
steve… i dont give a good god damn what ur position i, right, center, left or off the map, doug henwood, rosa parks or fyodor dostevesky. It ought to be obvious to anyone that reads this blog that im open to all points of view. all im asking is that you refrain from serial posting of one line snide remarks== that you stop feeling compelled to quote back to every commenter one or two of his lines with some wisecrak from you. it makes reading through the comments here TEDIOUS. that’s my final answer.
September 25th, 2004 at 12:52 am
BTW… In case any of you on this blog didn’t know already, the situation in Iraq is a mess. It may come as a shock to many of you. I could attach some links from some mainstream sources or Juan Cole but I am sure that you have already come across the sad news. The solution is real simple though.
Yes democracy is slow to come in that worn torn land. I know that we all expected things to go real smooth and that it is a shock that the Bush administration as screwed things up.
But lets all hope that this fails. Then many on the left like Chomsky will be vindicated and the world will figure out once and for all the Bushies are incompetent. It might be a shock to the world and to many at home but the revelation will come. All those Bush books will pay off.
Soon after that the Anarcho-Syndicalist Party of America will gain power. After all those thousands of people protesting the war do represent that ideology. Workers will willingly organize around their trade and the workplace will seamlessly become democratic. The labor movement will reverse its 20+ year slide and workers will instantly want to become unionized. The government will become decentralized and communities (all food will be grown locally now with no GMO’s) will work together in a spirit of cooperation. Doug Henwood will become the economic minister. EMPIRE will become the new bible. Workers will work less and spend more time reading Gramsci and Foucault and discussing post-modernism. Mumia Abu Jamal will ONCE and FOR ALL be released and instantly be given the Nobel Peace Prize and the Pulitzer Prize for his writing and struggle. Three cheers for Utopia!
Without the US military the Iraqis will figure things out and the country will become totally stable. The Islamic militants that are chopping heads off will instantly decide to be part of the new society. The long simmering ethnic and religious tensions will cease. Clerics and warlords will throw away those weapons. The Iraq government will nationalize oil and use the immense profits for the people. Women will not be stoned for adultery. Arranged and plural marriages will be illegal. A new liberal form of Islam will emerge that is modern.
It is all simple. We have simple decisions to make. If we just keep listening to Pacifica and read Z Magazine than we will be that much closer the utopia.
September 25th, 2004 at 6:29 am
Josh — Thanks for the history lesson, but it’s a bit hard to take seriously when you engage in yr. own brand of simplification and over-statement (as seen above in the “utopia” blast). I wasn’t literally saying that the WSJ is Pravda (The NYTimes is closer to that) or that the US is Stalinist Russia (not yet, anyway). I simply compared that ridiculous ed to something you’d find in a one-party state paper. I’ve read enough Soviet-era literature to be able to recognize the language, and the WSJ’s take on Allwai fit it to a tee. Fortunately, there are other outlets to get better info, like Marc’s blog for one (and his takes on Allwai/Bush have been his better writing of late), so we don’t have to rely on back-alley whispering and hand-printed samizdat. Still, that doesn’t mean that authoritarian-speak and the whitewashing of history don’t exist — they do, esp on WSJ’s ed page.
September 25th, 2004 at 7:30 am
It ought to be obvious to anyone that reads this blog that im open to all points of view.
–it evidently isn’t obvious to those who have disagreed with me politically *and* criticized you for attacking me alone for doing what you know full well others do on this blog frequently, i.e. react sarcastically.
–
all im asking is that you refrain from serial posting of one line snide remarks== that you stop feeling compelled to quote back to every commenter one or two of his lines with some wisecrak from you. it makes reading through the comments here TEDIOUS.
–yes, i do actually understand that Marc, I’m sorry you don’t seem to understand that it is also a standard that you should apply equally instead of toward a person who is left of you and critical of your positions taken on your blog. In this thread alone, has not your good friend Mr. Legere submitted post that are nothing but snide, sarcastic comments, and on top of that long and repetitive?
September 25th, 2004 at 7:42 am
The good news is that the American Left is filled with smart voices that cannot get a word in at the moment.
–This is astounding really. For whom is it easier to get access to an op-ed piece in the NYT, Todd Gitlin or Noam Chomsky? Henry Louis Gates or Adolph Reed? William Juilus Wilson or Bill Fletcher? Oh, I know, the NYT broke down and let us read about 6 weeks of Barbara Ehrenreich columns.
I wonder if Ehrenreich is too radical left for Legere? Too irrational? And I wonder with his calls for ‘purges’, is anyone seeing the irony of that? Hint: Mr. Totten likes to complain about how he was treated as personal non-grata by the left…because of his positions. So the remedy? Mr. Legere is telling us, “purges”.
September 25th, 2004 at 11:35 am
Santo – You are right about my “utopia” statement. The sarcasm is a waste of space. I will apologize for that.
If you are familiar with Russian literature than you should read Gulag Archipelago. In that you will surely learn that as dysfunctional as things are in the US it is not even close to the USSR nor is the NYT even close to Pravda.
A more relevant historical comparison might be looking at the propaganda LBJ used against Goldwater (the commercial for one). Both sides have a good bit of histrionics right now.
Out of respect to the host and others I will no longer waste space with sarcasm or responding to a certain someone who is always on this blog. That certain someone is even more irritating than the Limbaugh fans. I regret getting drawn into it.
I will just ignore that certain someone like the rest of the readers.
September 25th, 2004 at 11:47 am
If you are familiar with Russian literature than you should read Gulag Archipelago. In that you will surely learn that as dysfunctional as things are in the US it is not even close to the USSR nor is the NYT even close to Pravda.
–My guess is that Santo has already read GA or enough of it to have a good idea of its main arguments. One could also read Boris Karlitsky or Roy Medvedev, David Kotz, Hillel Ticktin, or Simon Clarke’s more balanced, analytical, and left critiques of the former Soviet Union.
It’s fair to say that the NYT is not even close to Pravda, with the qualification that it is far more effective at reproducing the ideological edifice of the nation’s ruling class.
-
I will just ignore that certain someone like the rest of the readers.
–Actually I’ve had quite productive exchanges with Rosedog and Bonnie, and even Ron and Roper at times, who have disagreed with me. Maybe if you followed their model of actually engaging the arguments I make instead of attacking me as a ‘pacifist’ ‘supporter of Al Sadr’ ‘worshiper of Amy Goodman’, “America Hater”, etc. you might find a dialogue with me actually possible.
September 25th, 2004 at 12:44 pm
Here….Here…Steve!
September 25th, 2004 at 7:13 pm
Remember Nguyen Cao Ky? The guy who said “I have only one hero – Hitler…We need four or five Hitlers in Vietnam.” LBJ couldn’t get the kid to shut up.
September 25th, 2004 at 7:23 pm
Josh — Again, my intent is unintentially masked. The Pravda cracks are lite jokes (though I could, if inspired, make several solid links b/w Pravda & the Times, but what’s the point, eh?), but my disgust with elite opinion is anything but. Ah well. Tough world. Someone has to live in it.
I’m more than aware of the real diffs b/w the USSR and the US, and have read Sholtzy’s blast of gulags. But there are similarities, many cosmetic, many more beneath the flesh. Curse of major states. Ah well. Someone has to rule it.
September 25th, 2004 at 7:25 pm
“unintentially”
Good God — wot horr’ble spellin’. As Elvis Costello once sang, I stand accused . . .
September 25th, 2004 at 10:32 pm
Josh,
Tom Bissell is basically arguing; well, like any good victim of rape, eventually (if s/he has spiritually progressed) s/he will feel blessed that s/he was abused. You know, blessed…because s/he has been given a new experience to see things in a new way. S/he will even learn to pity his/her rapist for being such an animal…this is basically many pro-war leftist are arguing…right?
Rape is really a bleassing?
September 25th, 2004 at 10:42 pm
Oh and how did those Eastern Bloc totalitarian govt. fall?
Our invasion and occupation really put them on the road to democracy?
September 26th, 2004 at 2:37 am
The USSR was a state based on violent coercion. The current US system is dependent upon the willful ignorance of its citizens. Big difference.
The US could be a well functioning democracy. But half of the country chooses not to participate. The other half chooses between 2 major parties that are very similar these days. A tiny winy minority chooses maligned form of leftover-left politics and are irrelevant, voices in the wilderness. The US is dysfunctional mostly because it has dysfunctional citizens.
Underbellies argument about rape is offensive. I actually have a close friend who endured that horror and I resent you exploiting it for an argument on a blog. You do not sincerely understand rape nor do you seem to make any effort to understand the violence of the invasion and occupation versus the violence under Saddam. Any reading on Saddam and his gang will reveal that they were of the great tyrants of the world and that women did not fair to well (lots of rape by Saddam’s sons). The genocide by Saddam was ghastly and I do see his removal as a positive thing even if I did not support the war.
It is kind of funny that upon clicking on Underbelly I was routed to “theocracy watch.” The irony is that those on the left that are supporting the “resistance” and “withdrawal” in Iraq are either inadvertently (inexcusable ignorance) or overtly (beyond conception) supporting a future Islamic theocracy in Iraq. I guess the religious right in the US is a serious threat while Islamic fundamentalism is not.
I am not a “pro-war” leftist in the sense that I supported the war on the onset. I did not support this war. It is a mistake in many ways. Just like Tom Bissell made clear in his essay.
But it is impossible for me to believe that things will improve upon the US departure. Sadly I only see a much worse brand of chaos and civil war if the US leaves. The winners of this will be the powerful warlords that are currently resisting the US. They are Islamic fundamentalists, not secular democrats. They will surely impose an awful totalitarian theocratic Islamic system. I do not support totalitarianism whether it be masked as Stalinism or Islamic Fundamentalism.
It is a double bind. If one supports the immediate withdrawal than the consequences will be Islamic Fundamentalism and war between Shiites, Kurds, and Sunnis. The body count will rise far beyond what it is now in a much shorter amount of time. Nothing good will come from those that are beheading innocent workers in Iraq. They will not stop beheading innocent people once the US leaves. These type of people will find new reasons to behead innocent people.
The occupation is indeed failing mostly due to the incompetence of the Bushies. I believe that the moral position is for me to support the possibility of secular democracy in Iraq. Whatever the means are to achieve that goal are acceptable to me even if that is occupation for the purpose of stabalizing the country. Unfortunately those means at this moment can only be achieved by an effort to secure the country and have free elections. Immediate withdrawal is an irresponsible position to take in this debate without acknowledging that the consequences will at best be more violence.
The reality is that the US is NOT going to withdrawal even with Kerry in office. Supporting the “resistance†and immediate withdrawal is a way of sitting this one out and not being engaged. The left should be engaged in the occupation and hope that democracy comes to Iraq instead of gleefully cheering every piece of bad news. Supporting the “immediate withdrawal†and “resistance†is a very simplistic position to take and shares many of the same characteristics of one-dimensional Bush logic.
Stalinism did fall without the US invading any eastern bloc countries. But the cost to those in those eastern bloc countries was staggering. In hindsight, knowing the horrors of Stalinism, western democracies could have saved millions of lives by confronting communism in its infantile stages in 1917. Of course the Left in the US was soft on Communism and failed to see its menace on the world.
September 26th, 2004 at 6:33 am
The US could be a well functioning democracy. But half of the country chooses not to participate.
==It’s about far more than mere ‘choices’ that people make and also about how choices are structured by basic elements of inequality. Frances Fox Piven and Richard Cloward’s *Poor People’s Movements* has one of the best discussions of this in chapter one of their book.
September 26th, 2004 at 9:59 am
Yes this society has structural inequality. But the system is still in place for those that live in poverty to put some pressure on the ruling class and make changes. It is disempowering to blame things solely on the structured inequality.
Francis Fox Pivan’s book was written a long time. Things have just gotten worse. That is another stale book and another stale voice.
Empowerment has “natural consequences.” At the moment the natural consequences of people not participating is Bush.
September 26th, 2004 at 2:29 pm
But the system is still in place for those that live in poverty to put some pressure on the ruling class and make changes.
–of course it does, and that is plainly a part of FoxPiven’s book, which I highly recommend you read.
It is disempowering to blame things solely on the structured inequality.
–yes, that is why that is only one, but an important part of the argument. To ignore structural inequality and to blame everything on ‘choice’ is to present a pretty one sided explanation of the failure of the American working class, be it employed or unemployed, to make greater social change in the US.
—
Empowerment has “natural consequences.” At the moment the natural consequences of people not participating is Bush.
–FoxPiven and Cloward would never make the argument you seem to be ascribing to them (or me for that matter).
September 26th, 2004 at 5:40 pm
I am not ascribing any argument to Piven. I have read the book.
Nothing from the New Left darlings appeals to me these days so I don’t anticipate reading the book again. The New Left has been a failure and it is time for a New New Left. A new Port Huron statement is due.
What’s The Matter With Kansas by Frank is much more valuable to me than Piven.
September 26th, 2004 at 9:32 pm
Nothing from the New Left darlings appeals to me these days so I don’t anticipate reading the book again.
–you’re saying Piven and Cloward are members of the new left? That would be a surprise to them.
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The New Left has been a failure and it is time for a New New Left. A new Port Huron statement is due.
–Actually Piven and Cloward wrote their book about poor people’s movements, not about the student movement. you do realize that right? I didn’t know that new leftists were involved intimately in the unemployed councils, the CIO of the 30′s and 40′s or even the Civil Rights Movement in the 50′s. Are you talking about the same Piven and Cloward who wrote *The Poor People’s Movements*? Like I said, they’d be amazed to hear someone ascribe new left politics to their orientation.
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What’s The Matter With Kansas by Frank is much more valuable to me than Piven.
–actually, if you’ve read both books carefully, you’d recognise that if *anything*, they actually complement each other in important respects. There are differences as well, certainly, but not along the lines of “new left” vs. “good left” that you propose.
September 26th, 2004 at 11:25 pm
I think Islamic theocratic theories have deeper roots in Iraq, than any wet-dream of liberal-democracy. Democracy will make theocracy possible…and many argued this before the US invaded and occupied Iraq.
You don’t like my anology…I don’t like your accusations…any, many rapist start justifying their act by comparing themselves to killers who rape their victim and then murder them…and then the inevitable “s/he had it coming anyway, s/he’s lucky I didn’t torture and kill her like other guys.”
Rationalizing screwed-up actions, no matter how divine and just you may believe you are, is sick.
September 28th, 2004 at 6:01 pm
I’d be curious where Josh , Tom, or Mr. Wagner would place this guy, who believes the war is lost already. What kind of traitor is he?:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55513-2004Sep27.html
July 23rd, 2006 at 2:28 pm
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