Jonah Goldberg Responds — I Reply
Readers of this blog know that I've been pretty tough on National Review's little Jonah Goldberg, the intellectual fly-weight the L.A. Times has acquired as an affirmative action hire to fill-its "right-wing pundit" quota.
It seems I have hurt his feelings and he was pouting about it today over on NRO's Corner (scroll down to see his item). Jonah was offended, in part, by my reference to him as a "shout-show clown."
He now corrects me, writing without a trace of irony: "I haven't been on a "shout show" in years and I turn them down all the time."
My apologies. Henceforth I will more accurately refer to him as a "former shout-show clown."
Mr. Goldberg also wishes to know why I would brush him off as "illiterate" and "ahistorical" just because he wrote an op-ed piece arguing that Bush is little different than FDR as the latter also lied -- to get us into WWII.
I suppose here I must begrudingly make another correction, or at least a clarification. It was not merely on the basis of that one piece that I questioned Jonah's brain-power. What I had in mind was his most recent book. It's an intellectually cartoonish tome titled...are you ready?...
"Liberal Fascism : The Totalitarian Temptation from Mussolini to Hillary Clinton"
The publisher describes this piece of work in the following way:
Replacing conveniently manufactured myths with surprising and enlightening research, Jonah Goldberg shows that the original fascists were really on the Left and that liberals, from Woodrow Wilson to FDR to Hillary Clinton, have advocated policies and principles remarkably similar to those of Hitler’s National Socialism.
So, yes, Jonah. Tut tut. Describing someone who argues that Wilson, FDR and Hillary Clinton are the real heirs to Hitler and Mussolini as "illiterate" and "ahistorical" is a tad unfair. Reconsidering, I think "just plain stupid" would do. No?
November 30th, 2005 at 1:27 pm
Thanks, Mr. Cooper. Now that the Times’ editorial board has aligned itself to the right with the firing of Scheer, I’m glad I can visit your blog for some sanity and decency.
November 30th, 2005 at 1:37 pm
The right-wing “intelligentsia” is truly permeated with nutty and delusional flakes – not at the margins, but in “respectable” rags like the National Review (“respectable” despite it’s having defended the segregationists into the sixties). This kind of sorry crap permeates their house organs – from the WSJ’s crackpot, serially dishonest editorial page to the neo-con fever dreams of the Weekly Standard to the Moonie crowd at The Washington Times. Not to mention the full-tilt wingnuts like Hannity, Limbaugh,O’Reilly and Coulter that the rest of the scumbags rely on to make them sound a bit less hysterical and ignorant. Actually, the Moonie Times isn’t the worst of the lot, if you can believe that, probably because they’re trying to maintain the conceit that they aren’t merely a propaganda sheet for a fascist fuck.
For a laugh, listen to this: http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Bill-OReilly-goes-nuts.mp3
November 30th, 2005 at 1:49 pm
I listened to the O’Reilly link but the content escaped me, because I noticed for the first time how much he sounds like one of the Car Talk guys (Click or Clack, not sure which one). The only thing missing is the “just-joking” maniacal laughter after each comment, though I fear that’s not far off. Minus the joking, of course.
I wonder if he sounds that batty during phone sex requests. Yeesh.
November 30th, 2005 at 2:11 pm
Stupid is as stupid does. Anyone who writes a book like sure qualifies. Speaking of that Jack Shafer eviscerates the selective amnesiatic WSJ.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:38 pm
Marc, if you applied the same standards to writers over at Huffington’s, they would look even worse. Just lay them side-by-side with Goldberg and he’ll look like a genius. I thought he was cordial and professional in his response to your jabs at him.
———-
Rich, the last thing that I would want to know is how O’Reilly sounds during phone sex.
———-
reg, I usually listen to sports radio, but when I do listen to talk radio it would be Bill Bennett in the early morning, switch over to Neal Boortz, and then catch Laura Ingraham a little later (she’s the best). Good choices, huh? Since you didn’t include these broadcasts in your comment, then I guess it’s safe to say that I don’t get my information from “right-wing ‘intelligentsia’…truly permeated with nutty and delusional flakes.”
When I want a good laugh, I really will listen to Air America. When I listen to Marc’s podcasts, I say to myself, “Ask them this. Ask them that. Don’t let them get away with that remark.” Late in the evening, there is the wisdom of “Coast to Coast” with George Noory and Art Bell. Did you know that the terminal at LAX is really a UFO and that Egyptians came from Mars?
Where do you get your information that I wouldn’t consider more absurd from the left than you consider the WSJ on the right?
—————–
Chris Hundley, you came here for sanity and decency?! Are we reading the same comments? Just wait to see how reg responds before you jump to conclusions.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:04 pm
Ha ha, what a total putz. Perfect for ‘fair and balanced’ Fox.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:29 pm
Woody. You know Im going to agree that the Right has no monopoly on whack-jobs and there are certainly a number of them at HuffPo.
As to Jonah.. yes he was trying to be nice. And I admit I wasn’t. But those are the ground rules of this game… you stick ur neck out as a public commentator and all is fair.
Jonah seems like an affable and even-tempered fellow (even I am in real life). But, really, his book is beyond the pale Woody. If he wants to rag on liberals, and seriously or even mirthfully deconstruct them, that’s fine — more power to him. But to posit that FDR, who crushed the Nazis, is actually himself an heir to the thinking of the Third Reich, or that Hillary Clinton descends from Mussolini, well..then…he really can;t be hurt when people call him stupid. Because that stuff is REALLY stupid. I dont even think he believes that crap. He just knew, or his mommy the literary agent guessed, that this book would be a great gimmick and a bestseller among the Red Meat Right and he plain cynically did it for the money knowing full well he was full of crap.
November 30th, 2005 at 5:10 pm
Stop picking on my boy. He’s a genius and is nearly as brilliant as his mother. And by the way, I have a tape of our conversation. You know the one. Tit for tat.
November 30th, 2005 at 5:23 pm
I couldn’t agree with marc more. The ideas sported by Goldberg are ludicrous but it’s exactly the sort of disinformation suckers like Woody fall for. He’s the audience in a nutshell.
November 30th, 2005 at 5:58 pm
Mark, you’ve misjudged me. I wouldn’t compare Hitler to Hillary. He had millions killed, but she only had a hand in one–the “assisted suicide” of Vince Foster. However, they did both want the President of the United States dead, but Hitler never threw a lamp at him. More> http://www.zpub.com/un/un-bc-body.html
See, I’m not a sucker for wild theories. Now, let me get back to “Coast to Coast.” It seems that space aliens have taken over the bodies of Democratic leaders–and, to think that I use to believe that there was intelligent life in space.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:02 pm
Woody Sports talk has standards for accuracy that are far higher than what passes as “conversation” on the shoutfests. Just ask the Oxycontin man about that after his “Comments” on Donovan McNabb.
Yeah that Air America is real loony. Why they feature such propogandists as Seymour Hersh, Joe Conason and Tom Oliphant as regular guests. Imagine that, when they could have Ann and the other “fair and balanced” types.
I hold no brief for Arianna Huffington. She is a silly woman who changes her politics as rapidly as her wardrobe. And she was spectacularly wrong headed on a recent panel discussion of Bill Clinton and the Media shown on CSPAN last weekend. Ron Brownstein and Jonathan Alter cut her to ribbons. Still, she has some pretty distinguished contributors to her website – far more credible than the corner.
Here’s the problem – as the late Daniel Moynihan remarked you are entitled to your own opinions. You are NOT entitled to your own facts. Jonah Goldberg is entitled to call FDR the fascist heir (? !!!) of Mussolini or Hitler but he looks downright loony as a result.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:06 pm
No I haven’t if you’re insinuating Foster didn’t kill himself, then well, you’re through the looking glass indeed. Go ask Alice what do do next. Yikes!
November 30th, 2005 at 6:07 pm
And please Woody, if you’re going to accuse Hillary of murder please have the courtesy of giving us your evidence for such a claim. Since no one else has, including the Rt Rev Ken Starr, you ought to put up or shut up. I know Mrs Clinton is a Public figure and “Malice” has to be proved to show libel in a court of law I am under no such constraint. For once I agree with all of Reg’s comments about you. In fact, they are too mild.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:22 pm
‘Where do you get your information that I wouldn’t consider more absurd from the left than you consider the WSJ on the right?’
Al Franken is so much saner, honest and better informed than the right-wing talk radio crowd, it’s no contest. A total joke…and not one of Franken’s. I’ll never forget the praise that conservative deficit hawk, Pete Peterson, heaped on Franken after their interview. He was completely blown away that this guy he assumed would be some goofball comedian was so well-informed on the issues they discussed.
For analysis of the war in Iraq, I follow people like James Fallows, George Packer, Sy Hersch and Juan Cole. There’s not a single right-winger who’s got a track record for depth or prescience even close to theirs on the war…except perhaps Pat Buchanan.
And your truly ugly, wingnut comments about Hillary prove that your a marginal crackpot. Nothing more, nothing less. It would be funny if it wasn’t so disgusting. Cheap crap from the peanut gallery.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:26 pm
As for your beloved Bill Bennett, he’s one of the most ridiculous gasbag hypocrites on the planet. A total sleazebag. (Ask Marc what kind of idiot you have to be to play the slots for six figures.) I can’t figure out why the hell Janis Joplin ever went out with him. She must have been plastered.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:44 pm
“Yeah that Air America is real loony. Why they feature such propogandists as Seymour Hersh, Joe Conason and Tom Oliphant as regular guests.”
Don’t forget “Red” Norm Ornstein from the American Enterprise Institute, the wild leftist John Dickerson from Slate and that crazy commie Jonathan Alter from Newsweek. The reason I know these guys are radical lefties is that they’re all part of the Foster murder coverup. None of them ever mention it when the subject of Hitlery Clinton comes up. Also they’ve completely obfuscated her ties to National Socialism.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:56 pm
richard, reg said some un-Christian things about me. Surely, you don’t subscribe to that.
Now, step back and think. Am I being serious or tweaking Mark? However, I truly believe that the Clinton’s had a number of people’s tax returns audited by the IRS as political payback–and, that can be as bad as death.
—————
Hey, reg. Check these links on Air America and Al Franken:
Air America: Al’s quiet on the eastern front
http://www.rightnation.us/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t90592.html
AIR ENRON: AL FRANKEN SPEAKS
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003153.htm
Al Franken’s Fight on Radio Row
http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/archives/001870.html
Franken Explodes in SwiftVet Fueled Rage on Michael Medved Show
http://www.thenationaldebate.com/blog/archives/2005/02/franken_explode_1.html
Wild Man Franken Assaults Dean Critic
http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/1/27/94253.shtml
Al Franken called to challenge me to a fistfight
http://alfrankenweb.com/mag6.html
Naturally, you’ll attack the sources rather than the documented facts.
Air America is a financial disaster, like most projects and ideas from the left. People aren’t interested in hearing rants from illogical people who deny truths and have terrible tempers–in other words, classic liberals. Now, I can see why you like Al Franken. You have a lot in common.
————
I’ve hit my quota for posting. Others can take their turns now.
November 30th, 2005 at 7:34 pm
Reg one thing is certain, when their spokesmen fall from grace, and they all do, supporters like this suburban propagandist always run like roaches in the moonlight slinging lies in their wake. This winger hears more voices than a schizophrenic. All of them are false.
November 30th, 2005 at 9:22 pm
As I understand it this is a spoof on space aliens, which if they happen to out there, please be advised these folks are our absolute worst, but if anyone IS inhabited by voice wielding messengers it’s this collection of nutjobs. Nutjob.com
December 1st, 2005 at 3:51 am
I like how Jonah wraps it up:
“I’m not exactly in a great position to throw stones about name-calling, but I do it less than I used to and I always try to do it in the context of an argument.”
Yes, Jonah, when you have a book coming out with the cover graphic being a toothbrush-mustached happy face, under the title “Liberal Fascism”, you’re not exactly in a great position to throw stones about name-calling.
I used to have a VW bug, and thought it was a loveable car. And for a few months in my twenties, I was a vegetarian. Well, Hitler, when brought in to evaluate the “People’s Car”, graced the VW bug with a design feature that made it look slightly more buglike, AND he was a vegetarian. Therefore, I am (or was) “remarkably similar” to Hitler.
And it’s OK to say that, because it’s in the context of an argument. And I guess, in general, it’s OK to use any ammunition that comes to hand in an argument, whether it’s relevant to the argument or not. As long as it helps sell a book, anyway. Whether that book is “Liberal Fascism” or … oh, hey, let’s say “Mein Kampf.” (Oof! Unfair! Unfair!! How can Michael Turner stoop to saying that, about someone like Jonah Goldberg, who is very cute and not — at least according to him — as offensive as he used to be?)
December 1st, 2005 at 8:06 am
Hey, c’mon. Where did “Political Correctness” even come from? From Orwellenian group-think, enforced by the Left. When the FACT that blacks score lower on IQ tests can’t be honestly discussed, nor that far fewer women get perfect 800 math SAT scores, the PC-thought police seem fairly fascist to me. More so than most of what Bush has done.
Whenever an individual’s rights can be overridden by “the group”, there is a big fascist seed. And yes, all group military actions include such a seed; so there is a bit of truth to any X=Hitler when X is going to war. Including my supported, if not quite beloved, Bush.
The Nazis claimed they were sending Jews to work camps (So did the Slovak Cleric J. Tiso) — FDR, in total violation of the US Constitution, DID send Japanese Americans to work camps. Has any other president done so? Is there any other step MORE like a fascist step?
After almost two hundred years of precident, FDR decides to become “president for life” — just like most of the failing African ex-revolutionary generals who hold one election, once. Has any other president tried to hold onto power so tenaciously?
Nobody in America is indispensible. FDR should have prepared the US for his successor. Of course, all through his first 8 years, the US was stuck in a terrible depression, with his lousy policies failing each year to help the economy. (He should have tried … tax cuts! and more deficit spending — but the Reps were against that.)
The increasing secrecy of Bush’s admin is scary — but inevitable until Islamofascism is vanquished. And the only way I see for that is to attack its root causes: no democracy in Arab Muslim countries. So I’m all in favor of winning, and winning big and fast, in Iraq, in Iran, in Syria, in Sudan, in Saudi Arabia.
Partly to save privacy and human rights in the US — which will inevitably be reduced the longer terrorists keep successfully killing folk.
December 1st, 2005 at 9:06 am
Jeezus, that was bizarre….
December 1st, 2005 at 9:49 am
Don’t right wing pundits support the Internment Camps now? And McCarthy? How could that be more fascist and how can it be construed “Left?”
December 1st, 2005 at 10:21 am
While listening to Air America this morning, I heard that Al Franken is doing his live radio show and having a book signing TODAY over at Little Five Points in Atlanta. Not only that, he’s having Jimmy Carter as a guest! Tin foil hats will be given away as prizes.
———
I’m surprised that Jonah Goldberg didn’t venture over here to defend himself or push his book. I think that he could probably make a case for his point whether or not others would agree.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:47 am
Liberty Dad -
What’s with the SAT scores? If I’m not mistaken you brought up the score discrepancies in another post (seemingly out of context there as here).
You say you’re upset about the lack of discussion, though, in fact I do hear this stuff discussed. Are you perhaps upset that people aren’t drawing the conclusions you’d like them to (though I notice you don’t voice those conclusions).
December 1st, 2005 at 12:06 pm
Anyone that can laugh at Jimmy Carter and actually believe “they” are superior in any way deserves a saranwrap facemask. Now breathe deeply.
December 1st, 2005 at 4:11 pm
Mark York, don’t you need to change the filter in your fish tank?
With Marc C. bringing up Jonah, it reminds me of my visit to the Georgia Aquarium on Sunday where I saw their whales. That place is nothing you would understand.
I think we’ve pretty well exhausted any discussion on Jonah Goldberg.
December 1st, 2005 at 5:27 pm
Yeah a professional fish biologist would know little about what’s in an aquarium. Whales are land mammals who returned to the sea, a perfect example of nonguided natural selection in action. Only this time in reverse. Not that a pinaped-headed flat-earth moron like you would understand that reality, as is clear every thime you post.
December 1st, 2005 at 5:44 pm
Same old noise: my guys are great, yours suck. Dammit, why do I keep coming here? Oh, right, because Marc Cooper actually has puts up something worth reading. Gotta remember to skip the comments though…
December 1st, 2005 at 7:10 pm
They had California sea lions, too. You should what they’re like. The Whale Sharks, which are the largest fish, were pretty impressive as they swam above our heads when we walked through a glass tunnel in the main tank. They also had a children’s petting zoo where they could pet swimming sting rays–with barbs removed. Just think–this aquarium, the nation’s largest, was built with private donations and without government. Give credit to the greedy businessmen for donating over $200 million for this tool for teaching. They have one snail on the side of the glass wall to keep all that glass cleaned. That is one tired snail.
To get back on point, I haven’t heard anything from Jonah Goldberg today.
Sorry, too many steves. Once a thread peters out, which this one did petty quickly, most figure that no one is still reading it. What do you know about Goldberg–the writer, not the wrestler?
December 1st, 2005 at 7:47 pm
All aquariums are private. This is not news except to those who just figured it out. Duh.
December 1st, 2005 at 8:25 pm
I’ve seen where some aquariums obtained land for building from cities essentially free or for nominal amounts, some used public funding through industrial revenue bonds, they are given tax breaks, surrounding roads and lands are cleared and improved by cities, and bonds are backed with public money. I just said that the Georgia Aquarium was built with private money. From the examples listed above, which I verified from research, it appears that many aquariums have depended on public funds and received public assistance in various ways.
What is it that a lot of people who study fish immitate another water creature–leeches, sucking off of the taxpayers?
December 1st, 2005 at 9:35 pm
Fuck you you egg sucking leech. That’s a fly pattern. Personally I think you are the worst kind of parasite. The kind that mainipulates the tax system by sticking the bill to others. People who study fish work for the Federal government. Private interests try to take something for nothing like your parasitic ranchers and oil companies. God damed public welfare drones. Purveyors of death at the taxpayers’ expense. Damn you to hell.
December 2nd, 2005 at 3:56 am
The SAT scores means it is no surprise that a group scoring lower will have lower academic achievement. Not based on discrimination, based on SAT scores. It bothers me that there is science and testable issues with respect to SAT / IQ scores and achievement, but such science isn’t done because it’s not PC. [So the "Intelligent Design" (which I don't quite believe, nor know enough about) vs. "Evolution" (which does NOT explain how one species evolves into another) debate also bothers me.]
The right way to combat prior discrimination is to judge every individual on their own character, not skin color. Affirmative action is racist. Group-identity politics almost always devolve into some racism issues. Black Dems are already claiming that Black Reps are “race traitors” — that’s fascist group think.
I’ve certainly claimed there are Femi-nazis and PC-nazis and PC-thought police in the past; the group-think issues. Internment was an FDR neo-fascist policy.
Now, back to the Leftist potty-mouthing and fish stories.
December 2nd, 2005 at 6:15 am
You are, in fact, an aficianado of junk science (Jensen, Murray) – since there is as wide a gap in IQ test results between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland as there is between blacks and whites in the U.S. Points to a conclusion about the origins of IQ results that, presumably, makes racists such as yourself uncomfortable. Don’t go arguing that “content of their character” and “affirmative action is racist” bullshit when you’ve obviously got a far-right Murrayite agenda out of pure ideological zeal and bias. Guys like you make me laugh when it comes to talking about other people’s “PC” because, frankly, the right-wing is full of its own hoary group-think agendas (subtle and not-so-subtle “white folks are genetically superior to blacks” garbage is one of the most despicable.)
December 2nd, 2005 at 7:07 am
More on the “lying liars”, wingnuts and hacks…
http://jameswolcott.com/archives/2005/12/cornered.php
December 2nd, 2005 at 9:40 am
PC means studies that are factual but these hoodlums are still in touch with their cave man roots and don’t buy it. That’s the way ignorance works. Lower SAT scores means women won’t do well in college? Duh.
“which does NOT explain how one species evolves into another”
Au Contraire. It damn well does, but then what could a biologist know compared to say, someone with an opinion. All it means is you don’t understand it.
December 2nd, 2005 at 10:49 am
Just a thought. But isn’t it “PC” to say black and not “Darkie”, “Spade” or “nigger”. I mean 75 years ago all three of those were in common usage by all classes of society and seen in books and plays. How many of you know that Oscar Hammerstein’s lyrics to “Old Man River” that open SHOWBOAT :
“Niggers all work on the Mississippi . . .”
Now no one would use that word outside of a rap lyric. And we don’t say “Wop” or “Hebe” or “Chink” either. Political correctness you know. I just thought we ought to consider there might be a reason to change language as we become more aware of the other.
December 2nd, 2005 at 12:50 pm
Well Richard that would require one to be aware wouldn’t it?
December 2nd, 2005 at 9:01 pm
As far as The Bell Curve goes…
December 2nd, 2005 at 9:12 pm
And don’t forget to read The Mismeasure of Man for a little history lesson and an exploration of the effect of human bias in scientific research.
December 2nd, 2005 at 10:09 pm
Gould is the gold standard.
December 5th, 2005 at 5:01 pm
I haven’t laughed so hard for the wrong reason in a long, long time–maybe since I grew up and woke up. You of the still Left Asleep are clearly delusional and actually think you’re seeing more the harder you close tight your eyes!
Al Franken is funny??? Air America is intelligent??? Jimmy Carter was effective??? Oka-ay, if you say so. No wonder the Democrats lost to the idiot Bush who should’ve lost the election to a traffic cone. Apparently, no traffic cone wanted to associate themselves with the Dems, so you got the next best Left Asleep thing, and still lost.
December 5th, 2005 at 10:38 pm
“Naturally, you’ll attack the sources rather than the documented facts.”
Michelle Malkin ? And you think I’ll attack thbe sources rather than “documented facts”? That little skank whore wouldn’t know a documented fact if it hit her in her little “Jail The Japs” noggin.
I’m rolling on the floor.
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