Marchas, Si! Boycotts, No!
Here's an opinion piece I've written for today's L.A. Times on the pro-immigrant demonstrations and boycotts planned for next Monday.
As you can see, I'm a big booster of the overall movement but I think the specific tactic of a one-day economic boycott is a mistake.
April 28th, 2006 at 5:32 am
Read (1) for English, (2) for Spanish:
(1) Mr. Cooper, in your article, you stated, “There is a definite time and place for this sort of tactic, and it isn’t here or now.” I disagree…the time IS now. Americans need to know the real attitudes of illegal immigrants–not attitudes purified by handlers. (Don’t we ask this of our President?)
Debates on creating more rights for these people should consider their true views, as those will eventually come out and result in building a “figurative wall” between U.S. citizens and these people–which goes up much faster than one along the border.
If the illegal immigrants have honor, they will go ahead with the boycott and honor the words of one of their leaders…”We’re going to close down Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Tucson, Phoenix, Fresno,” said Jorge Rodriguez, a union official who helped organize earlier rallies.
The illegal immigrants should lay all of their cards on the table now if they are proud of them. If not, then we are put on notice and should begin to enforce our laws.
—–
(2) El señor Cooper, en su artÃculo, usted indicó, “hay un rato y un lugar definidos para esta clase de táctica, y aquà o ahora no está.” Discrepo… el tiempo ahora ESTOY. Los americanos necesitan saber las actitudes verdaderas de inmigrantes ilegales — no actitudes purificadas por los tratantes. (no pedimos el de nuestro presidente?) Los discusiones sobre crear las más derechas para esta gente deben considerar sus opiniones verdaderas, pues ésos saldrán eventual y resultado en la construcción de una “pared figurada” entre los ciudadanos y esta gente — que de ESTADOS UNIDOS vaya encima mucho más rápidamente de de una a lo largo de la frontera. Si ilegal inmigrante tienen honor, ellos ir a continuación con boicoteo y honrar palabra de uno de su lÃder… “We’re yendo cerrarse abajo de Los Ãngeles, Chicago, Nueva York, Tucson, Phoenix, Fresno,” dijo Jorge Rodriguez, funcionario de la unión que ayudó a organizar reuniones anteriores. Los inmigrantes ilegales deben ahora poner todas sus tarjetas en la tabla si son orgullosos de ellas. Si no, después nos ponen en aviso y debemos comenzar a hacer cumplir nuestros leyes.
April 28th, 2006 at 7:18 am
Cooper doesn’t disapoint in his red-baiting. What is Mayday all about anyway, but a symbolic day of carnival or saturnalia. The whole concept – which was not started ANSWER – is absolutely in keeping with such a movement. Yet, Marc who admits not being for “open borders,” would prefer to not take his turn at an organizers’ meeting but bloviate in the LA Times.
At least there is consistency, if wrongheaded as well.
April 28th, 2006 at 7:22 am
That was supposed to by started by ANSWER, not started ANSWER.
Also the use of the phrase “its no accident” – nuff said. This is a stalinist phrase. There’s nothing wrong with opposing the tactic, but, like in the antiwar movement critiques, to stoop to guilt by association and redbaiting is morally disgusting.
April 28th, 2006 at 8:39 am
It’s funny – a deli-restaurant, located in the ground floor of the Bank of America HQ in the heart of the SF financial district and where I often grab a pastrami for lunch, had a sign at their cash registers yesterday stating something like “Because we value our hard-working Latino employees we are giving them the day off on Monday, May 1 so they can protest HR (Sensenbrenner whatever). All of Max’s employees are free to go to the protest. We apologize in advance for any inconvenience.” Something like that. Anecdotal, but I thought it was kind of emblematic of how this isn’t a radical deal, but a mostly gaggle of good intentions in the face of a complex problem. I thought it was a very endearing public notice, although I’m an advocate of workplace enforcement. I’ll admit to being emotionally all over the map on this issue. But I don’t believe in doing policy based on an unattainable, abstract “justice” like “sans borders” that defies all present-day political and economic realities. Anyone who truly is committed to organizing their lives along such lofty principles has the option of committing themselves to the least among us by joining the Catholic Worker organization and I’ll grant they’re a better person than I am.
Obviously there’s a mix of humanitarianism, self-interest at the humble and not-so-humble levels, pragmatism, ethnocentrism and competing paranoias of several stripes, political opportunism, idealism, cynicism and, of course, crackpots and wingnuts – most notably on the yahoo right – operative over this issue.
I’ve seen few commentators – most notably Paul Krugman as an exception, and a couple of others – who speak to the complexities and aren’t committed to oversimplification in the service of an agenda – be it xenophobic, pro-business or ethnic. I can’t quite figure Marc on this one, but I’ve found his commentary unsatisfying and evasive of some core questions. Sensenbrenner’s bill is, of course, the worst – but the McCain/Kennedy “guest-worker” plan stands as a terrible idea that should be vigorously opposed by progressives. (I can understand the “it’s the best we can get” rationale as the last ditch in the netherworld of Beltway politicking – although Reid deserves credit for not simply bending over for the GOP to dominate the process corralling their crazies while guaranteeing that K Street ends up with something suitable – but not from anyone who pissed all over Al Gore in 2000 in pursuit of political purity, nor from independent commentators who have the luxury – if only in some small way – of trying to dig beneath the surface, deal honestly with complexity and help shape public debate. Also, as a general comment on McCain-Kennedy, “guest-worker” is a ridiculous euphemism – guests don’t clean your toilet.)
As another, even more general, comment, when we conflate the issue of illegal immigration with “the rights of immigrants” – as Marc does in his op-ed – it completely violates any sense of fairness to people who are following the legal immigration process, waiting for green cards in countries all over the world, but who’s chances for legal immigration are going to inevitably be lessened by any amnesty solution for people who’ve immigrated illegally. Increasing legal immigration is not an option when we are presently deciding to grant citizenship to as many as 12 million people who did, in fact, ignore the laws and jump the line. It, de facto, grants rights to people who happen to be able to make it to our southern border that literally billions of poor people – far poorer in many cases – trapped on other continents do not have in terms of accessing the bottom rung of the U.S. economic ladder. It pushes them farther away from any such possibility. Which is why the “humanitarian” argument shakes down as a cover for interests – be they ethnocentric, pro-business, “I need a (yardman) (nanny)”, or whatever – that aren’t as pure – or even “sans borders” radical – as they might seem on the surface.
April 28th, 2006 at 9:04 am
Cummings: Simply put, you are a moral and political idiot. Red-baiting? In other words, when a few people join a group like ANSWER and willingly subsrcibe to a Marxist-Leninist view including defense of North Korea, it is red-baiting to note that they have ideological convctions that over=ride clear eyed strategy? In your twisted view, if someone joins a communist organization they, henceforth, acquire political immunity and it is our bounds to note their ideology. You are, indeed, an idiot.
April 28th, 2006 at 9:05 am
“We’re yendo cerrarse abajo de Los Ãngeles, Chicago, Nueva York, Tucson, Phoenix, Fresno,†[my emphasis]
Such are the dangers of translation bots.
April 28th, 2006 at 9:18 am
I respond as an American born citizen who fought and bled for his country.
My wife and stepson cannot obtain legal entry into the US. There are members of my wife’s family who have been on a waiting list for ten years to obtain legal entry into the US to reunite their families.
I would support Monday’s strike, only if EVERY Monday was a commemorative.
US citizens could adjust. But NO illegal alien would be permitted to work on ANY Monday (20% pay reduction), attend school, or enter any government or commercial building (including emergency medical services).
I support their right to protest, but once is not enough. Let their protest be enforced EVERY Monday throughout the coming years.
I believe US citizens could adjust to the consequences.
(“My maid cannot work on Mondays. But even if she did, she would not be allowed to enter the shopping market.”)
Support the upcoming protest, and honor it EVERY Monday.
For centuries, Catholics had no meat on Fridays. Durling WWII US citizens accepted “meatless Tuesdays”.
We CAN adjust, adapt, and overcome.
Mike Farrell
First Sergeant of Marines
Retired and Reincarnated in the Philippines
firstsgtmike@hotmail.com
April 28th, 2006 at 9:25 am
I am not defending ANSWER. I’m criticizing your use of their participation in what looks to be (in my view) a very important event to discredit said event (mayday action.) You could have made your point without dragging the protests through the mud by linking them with ANSWER.
In my view, ANSWER are not Marxist-Leninists, they are nuts. Yet, even if they were Marxist-Leninists, redbaiting is redbaiting. Even if there really were Stalinists in the film industry and State Dept in 40s/50s, theat doesn’t justify McCarthy or Arthur Schlesinger and other redbaiters.
I wish you’d respond substantively to critiques.
April 28th, 2006 at 9:28 am
I agree with your article urging the illegal immigrants not to boycott on May day,
(the old USSR’s big parade day.) If one really wants to help the illegal immigrants, who are making only poverty wages in the United States, they should urge Congress to allow the immigrants to receive the same minimum wage that U. S. citizens earn. But would that really help them? Employers would have no reason to hire an immigrant over a citizen and soon the exodus across the border would cease.
Thus, it seems the only way to insure that illegal immigrants remain in this country, is to keep their wages low and let them do the “grunt” work. In effect, it becomes the 21st Century’s re-incarnation of slavery, with the exception, that the slaves must pay their own room and board.
Buenos dias
April 28th, 2006 at 9:37 am
May Day predates the Soviet Union. It was originally a pagan “dance around the maypole” spring holiday. It became associated with workers and “the masses” around the time of the French and American revolutions. For most of the socialist era in the States and elsewhere, between the 1870s and the Wilson Red Scare, it was the de-facto labor day. The September labor day was introduced to discredit May 1. Even so, in most of the world, and I presume among many American unions, it is a day to commemorate workers’ struggles.
April 28th, 2006 at 9:52 am
Contrary to Marc, I support the boycott of 1 May. It will serve notice to U.S. citizens that the 12 million illegals are real people, not just questionable statistics. This is the kind of demonstration that awakens those who care whether their country has been invaded by foreigners.
The choice of 1 May couldn’t have been better. I t has historically has been celebrated by the membership of the communist party and looked upon with suspicion by those who remember the cold war. The fact that the march and boycott has the communist party at its core is nearly the coup de grace, as these people have been opposed to our way of life since 1917. It couldn’t be much better if the illegal immigrants had chose a pedaphile club as their sponsor. Those babyboomer Congressmen in Washington will remember that history when immigration related legislation comes before them.
April 28th, 2006 at 9:56 am
Mr. Cooper, I am one, of many, who are sick and tired of liberals like yourself who defend ILLEGAL aliens. Not once in your article was the word ILLEGAL used, unless it was in quotation marks, inferring that your article wasn’t really about ILLEGAL aliens. Instead, you whine about how they elude sensors, border patrol, etc. Just last week, it was reported that the cost of medical care alone in California for illegal aliens was almost 300 million dollars. I would bet that figure is off by about a billion, and this doesn’t even include the welfare and schooling for the illegal aliens many children, which I estimate to be in the area of about 6 billion dfollars a year. I’m thrilled that they’re boycotting. It shows their true collers once again, just as plain as the Mexican flag collers were shown until some PR guys jumped in and told them that waving the Mexican flag wasn’t cool.
I have mowed my own lawn, cleaned my own house, and picked oranges when I was still in high school. The jobs that Americans “won’t do” is BS, and everyone knows it. They are jobs that Americans won’t do for the slave wages that illegal aliens do. Thus, illegal aliens are taking the jobs of high school kids, people trying to pay their way through college, people that didn’t get enough education to get a better job. If need be, I would be willing to pay 50 cents more for a hamburger than have an illegal alien take that job of some college kid. That would be far less expensive than taking care of millions of ILLEGALS. Instead of calling it a “immigratnt movement”, call it what it really is, which is a “illegal immigrant movement”. Because, no one here is opposed to LEGAL immigration. People like you make me sick, Mr. Cooper. The Times is the only rag that would print your ultra liberal bilge.
April 28th, 2006 at 10:07 am
I read your piece today and one has to wonder at the schizophrenia in which this issue is approached.
First and foremost, our country and it’s infrastructure cannot and should not take on a FLOOD of illegal aliens.
The main reasons being, we were attacked on 9/11 precisely because of the lack of enforcement. And DAILY terrorist occurances in the forms of gang activity and fraud and identity theft.
Our standard of living cannot compete with Third World wages and conditions (which are products of corrupt governments, overcrowding and illiteracy), nor can it maintain while OUR society begins to mimic exactly what these hordes are running from.
Illegal activity begats MORE illegal activity. Our own laws are broken exponentially as illegal aliens require more and more.
The neediest compete with MORE of the needy and we are breaking under the weight of these populations.
We are at WAR….and the conditions that STARTED it, cannot continue either.
I’m puzzled by our President, and other lawmakers breaking the oath they took to protect this country’s sovereignty.
I am even more puzzled that we continue as if EVERY illegal alien’s intention is a job.
When it’s not.
We are rewarding cheating and the flouting of what built this country….LAWS and everyone agreeing to abide by them.
As a black woman, whose parenta and grandparents survived Jim Crow and it’s attendant risks and indignities: they didn’t go to Canada and demand that Canada break it’s own rules of law and change their language and cultural identity to do so.
No.
Blacks subject to the Deep South’s corruption and murderous enforcement stood up to it and demanding change.
So the illegals marching in these streets got it all wrong.
Nothing will change where they are from, if they aren’t there to change it.
And lastly, I am even more puzzled by the affront that our nation has shown it’s gay and lesbian citizens.
The freedom to marry, to choose to adopt needy children and contribute openly as soldiers is not in conflict with this country’s basic rules and promise of equality for all CITIZENS and legal residents.
Gay people transcend all cultures, religions, families and economic strata.
But the President and others used them easily as a demon class, unfit to even marry.
But illegal aliens, who affect EVERYTHING, including our foreign policy and public safety and accomodation for legal citizens…are the model class.
That’s just stupid….and dangerously so.
April 28th, 2006 at 10:19 am
i don’t know if i should laugh or cry.
over the last month people of all stripes have chirped up with what they think are smart things to do. job place law enforcement, special little id cards that glow in the dark, a three step samba dance as proposed by the senate, house felony plans, guest worker jib jab.
here’s the reality you were warned about. previously we had a chance at a fence and perhaps a ten year straight line to citizenship with no questions asked and no bullshit law enforcement. now that we have pissed off 40 million hispanics this is what you are going to get—you will be giving them immediate citizenship within a couple of years, probably some fencing and they will be bringing immediate family, wives and children to the US. the best part –our friendly immigrants are going to have an attitude–no more mr. nice guy.
back in march i posted this:
….who broke the bigger law? the folks who risked life and limb to get here or the politicians/bureaucrats who failed to enforce the state and federal laws to protect and seal the borders? conference after conference, committee after committee since the 70’s recommended closing the border with a fence. it was left open. we need to get past this “illegal†designation. they are here and they are staying. no amount of convoluted gestapo, stalinist, nativist jib jab from the left or the right is going to change that. remember, 15 million are really over 40 million when you throw in their supporters and the larger hispanic community in general. start getting serious. the idea that the newly unemployed “illegals†you would create, with these new ridiculous remedies, are going to go home in numbers is absurd. the part we are not getting is this– it’s their country now. millions of them already have their own small businesses, families, homes etc.
close the F’n border with a fence, legalize the illegals and be done with a problem of our own making.
people against a fence along the entire the border are just making excuses. they want/will get a police state instead with greatly enhanced IRS, FBI, INS etc. they want/will tear this country apart with a new race war because of something we did. we let them in–don’t ever forget it. if people think 40 million hispanics are going to sit still, while a bunch of crackers on the left and right jump up and down screaming “its not right, its illegal or whatever†we’re sending you home , they are delusional…….”
in early april this:
……i think an honest reading of the above addresses the yelling that is taking place on both the left and right regarding the mix of solutions that we are hearing. by not enforcing laws that were written over the last forty years has given rise to a very large economy employing and attracting illegals. attempting to clamp down on a system so large, 10-15 million people, will have to be stalinist in approach. there would be millions of unemployed just for starters. boy there’s a perfect solution. to the people on the right who are talking about felon status/deportation etc that would take gestapo like actions to execute. yes, yes its been a while since we had a good pogrom!
obviously some don’t want a fence. ok. i do, along with virtually everyone that lives at the border. since i wrote that post on march 17th events i predicted are already happening. the largest organized marches have already taken place with more to come. cities have already announced they will not enforce any laws past or future to penalize employers or illegals and the two step convoluted senate plan has crashed and burned. as luck would have it all the columnists i sent it to are talking up the fence as first option. i admit, all the senators i sent it to told me to f’k off.
i want a fence first and then citizenship for all. no questions asked after a background check. no fines, no back taxes, and a 10 year(2x the norm) green card period. wages and benefits will go up immediately without any government intervention. all the bad guys deported along with anyone who commits a felony while on a green card. if people still feel they need their pound of flesh we can charge them a very, very small citizenship fee for processing. i am just sorry to say that despite our best intentions–â€enforce the laws†is just code for “do nothingâ€. perhaps not for you but certainly for everybody else for the last forty years and it will remain that way for the next forty……….”
well here we are at the end of april and now my next prediction–before this thing is over they are going to be telling us what they want and we are going to be giving it to them. we bitch slapped them and now we are going to pay. anyone with the slightest f’king clue knew this was coming………..
April 28th, 2006 at 11:05 am
I rest my case in my argument that foreigners are being allowed to divide this country in two. Foreigners visiting in other countries would never be allowed to interfere in internal affairs. Illegal allens are rude visitors. Benjamin Franklin once said that “fish and visitors stink in three days.” He couldn’t have been more right if he had been referring to the boorish attitude of illegal aliens
Law abiding citizens and legal residents respect our laws. Career criminals and illegal immigrrants see no problem with forging documents, and violating our immigration laws.
April 28th, 2006 at 11:56 am
JCummings — I think your “May Day” argument does not hold up. Your point seems to be, May Day has historically been a day of “carnival and saturnalia,” so a boycott makes sense. First, I just don’t see a mass boycott as “carnival and saturnalia”. Also, and more to the point, I don’t think most folks here share your view of May Day (although I know the history too, that view is more of an English one, not an American one).
No point in feeding the trolls above. (“pedaphile”, “ILLEGAL”, “AT WAR”)
Responding to what Reg, Lynn, and some others have said in recent immigration-centered threads, and to the great interest here in all things French, I recommend
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18978
The argument is that the French protesters (speaking of the young students in the cities, not of the car-torchers in the suburbs) may not just be wanting to bury their heads in the sand and avoid the consequences for France of an inevitable (?) American-style market economy. They may be seeing, in advance of their more comfortable elders, the consequences of globalization — the downward pressure on wages for everyone as first-world workers begin to compete with third-world workers for the same jobs, even traditionally white-collar jobs.
Excerpting:
The crucial effect of [globalization] for society in the advanced countries is that it puts labor into competition with the poorest countries on earth. The Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz is one of many arguing that trade liberalization puts downward pressure on skilled as well as unskilled wages. [...] In this perspective, what in France seems a sterile popular defense of an obsolete social and economic order might instead be understood as a premonitory appeal for a humane successor to an economic model that considers labor a commodity and extends price competition for that commodity to the entire world. The apparently reactionary or even Luddite position inspired by French reactions might prove prophetic.
I admit to being of the “sterile popular defense” mindset, but it’s good to have my preconceptions shaken.
April 28th, 2006 at 12:03 pm
Actually, it is comforting to note that we have both France and Stalin in this thread now. Can latte-sipping liberals be far behind? Reg, were you saying you had a latte with that pastrami?
April 28th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
JCummings: You accuse of me not responding to substance when u accuse me of red- baiting? Are u joking, or just nuts?
For the record: For better or for worse (in this case for the worse) May Day is NOT celebrated in the U.S. as a worker’s holiday (except by the 65 followers of Bob Avakian who feel compelled to go out and chuck rocks at cops once a year). Indeed, if you look on US calendars you will find that May 1 is actually Law and Order Day. While the rest of the world celebrates the Haymarket martyrs, the U.S. celelbrates the police killed in the same Haymarket bombing. Sorry to inteject facts.
April 28th, 2006 at 12:24 pm
Marc…. Very nice piece. I read it earlier in the LA Times. Strong, smart and informative for those of us trying to sort through the issues. I’m still ambivalent about the boycott, but your Op Ed provided a great jumping off point for discussion.
The one and only thing that struck me as off the mark, however, was your lumping the boycott organizers under the tent with loathsome groups like ANSWER.
(I refused to put periods after every letter. If these people can’t come up with a more typeable name, fuck ‘em.)
While ANSWER supports the boycott (as does Code Pink et al), in all truth, they’re no more consequential to this movement than a fly on an elephant, wouldn’t you say?. They’re not even listed among the March 25 Coalition members—the March 25 Coalition being the group that’s usually listed as being the boycott’s organizers. I mean, the Mexican American Political Association (MAPA)—-whose president, the somewhat ironically named, Nativo Lopez, considering the present context, is one of the March 25 Coalition’s main spokespeople—is hardly a fringe organization. Nor is Hermandad Mexicana.
In any case, that was my one gripe with the piece.
However—separate and apart from the issue of the boycott—I thought your description of ANSWER (and like groups that have, too often co-opted she spotlight in the anti-war movement) was both pithy and utterly perfect.
“…..marginal protest groups such as ANSWER ….have never shown much concern for real-world results, preferring to act out their ideological impulses…â€
Yep. That be the straight truth.
I’m still ambivilent about Monday’s boycott (although not, of course, about the 4 pm march).
PS: Cummings, what’s all the blathering about May Day??? Of course, it’s a pagen holiday. Duh!
April 28th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
Not to further any argument – I do know of many people in the States who celebrate Mayday – but I stand corrected on how widespread it is – but my critique had less to do with “redbaiting” per se than with using that “redbaiting” to tar the Monday boycott.
April 28th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
PPS: Marc…..what’s with the suddenly tiny print in the comments section? The middle-aged and vision challenged among us liked the BIG TYPE better. (Or is this some strange artifact of my computer.)
April 28th, 2006 at 12:28 pm
Is the “Law and Order” day really to commemorate the anti-worker thugs of Haymarket or is it some ugly coincidence? I may have read you wrong – but that is very interesting if true.
April 28th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
What part of the word “illegal” that people
who share your views don’t understand. The protests are being held in support of ILLEGAL
immigrants “rights” not immigrants rights in general.
You state “We make them (illegals) run a perilous gantlet at a rough-and -tumble Mexican border.” We don’t make them do anything!!! They are encouraged by the Mexican government to risk life and limb
to leave their country and enter ours illegaly.
What other government or president (Fox)
encourage illegal acts by it’s citizenry such as crossing the border into a foreign country??
One thing I’ve observed is that Californian politicians of Hispanic backgrounds have shown their true colors. They are more concerned about the interests of a particular ethnic faction(latinos) than those of the general population.
I want to see the protest take place simply because it may possibly arouse the ire of the rest of the population and spur it into action.
April 28th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/knopp270406.html
April 28th, 2006 at 12:39 pm
Rosedog… Iconsider Nativo Lopez to be quite marginal, lacking any real constioutency. There is no doubt in my view that the groups supporting the boycott are the smaller ones who had very little to do in fact with the march 25 event. At present there is a behind the scenes fight going on to stop the highjacking of this new movt by the professional ideologues of various stripes. Not only the ANSWER types but also by the cultural nationalist chicano shell organizations.
April 28th, 2006 at 12:40 pm
I have 12 Mexican employees (plus others). They have presented me with the requisite documents which I have forwarded to the appropriate authoritues. I withhold all taxes and comply with the law.
All of these employees claim the maximum number of dependents when they filled out W4′s. As a result, they have less federal tax witheld than a comparable worker whose US residency is entirely legal.(Take as example, one 20 year old claiming 8 kids.) This cheating makes his net pay higher than a legal worker’s, right away.
I don’t know how many of these guys will go to the “march” on May 1, probably not so many, because the pay and conditions are good for their class of worker. Any who don’t show up will be fired and replaced with cheaper labor fresh from that giant Mexican incubator of uneducated poverty.
They are indeed a reality in our midst, but a bad one. Ultimately, large pockets of this country will become like Mexico. Then, illegal immigration to those places will stop.
Technology could provide mechanization to harvest almost any crop and butcher pigs. That technology will remain overpriced until the Mexican people insist their government treat them with human dignity. In that regard, those of us who hire these people are complicit in the tyranny that spews them accross the border.
April 28th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
There you go again, Marc, trying to have it both ways by pretending to be progressive while espousing the most reactionary undercurrent of ideas. I don’t know who you think you’re fooling. PS- Your use of “nativist” is all skewed. Look at the Mexican flag- Indian symbols. Mexico City is the Aztec capital. Mexico is not a Spanish word. Mexicans have been around for 20,000 years in one form or another. White people are the foreigners. Calling us “Hispanics” as if we came from Europe, thereby making us foreigners is a typicall self-serving, smug attitude used by those who still believe in Manifest Destiny. You’re pathetic, and an enemy of progress and equality.
April 28th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
Jcummings..
Tnx for pOsting link to Nativo Lopez. He eloquently makes my case, against him. Prone to glorious gasbapg rhetoric he is noticeably detached from real World politics. Then again he had to fend off all that hardball questioning from the MR hack, um, I mean interviewer. LOL. So rosedog, u think Lopez DOESN’T sound marginal??
April 28th, 2006 at 12:51 pm
“….cultural nationalist chicano shell organizations….”
Marc, thanks for the clarification. You’re closer to this than I am, so I’ll take your word for it. The above description sounds believable. I’m just trying to sort through the flying rhetoric (I don’t mean yours) since a lot of folks appear to be on board for the boycott, although not the archdiocese or the labor unions.
Okay, I’m back to work.
April 28th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
Antonio,
What makes a country is a set of laws and people with like-minded values. Mexico, Venezuela, and other Central and South Americans are from different countries, although they are comprised mainly of Hispanics and indians. Regardless of how you slice it, Mexicans are Mexicans, Hondurans are Hondurans, etc. and foreigners with respect to the United States. Your argument is the rationale for open borders and justification for illegal immigration. Most Americans do not hold to your point of view.
April 28th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
In 1970, Nixon et. al allowed the federal government to sponsor Earth Day, both because of a serious need for reform and creation of EPA, and to divert left/youth attention from the antiwar movement. Erlichman in particular was very environmentally minded. Yet it got out of Nixon’s control, prompting the beginning of a more radical environmental movement.
Likewise, if I were a conspiracy theorist, I’d say that Bush et. al created and sponsored the initial pro-immigration marches as propaganda to the increasingly nativist population, and because of the Bush family’s semmingly genuine respect for immigrant communities. Yet, with “Cultural Nationalists” and leftists, it is getting out of control….so the appointed spokespeople like Cooper come in to do damage control.
I don’t actually believe that, but it sure seems that way.
And to George Williams, most Americans believe in UFOs and Christ’s ressurection. Mass beliefs should not make policy.
April 28th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
I agree with the original premise that this “boycott” is not a smart move. Coinciding with the revised National Anthem, it will likely now draw the attention of people who were on the sidelines of the debate.
Regardless, there will be no substantial legislation anytime soon that will change the overall situation.
April 28th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
J cummings does not believe in democracy, that the will of the majority of Americans should hold sway over the gas bag mob.
April 28th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Hey Marc,
I’ve walked in the G8 protests in Genoa and the ones against the war in Rome and like you was awestruck by the sheer numbers and vitality of the gran marchas, which I followed here on March 25 and in Phoenix on April 10. An invisible population coming together as a social force on that a scale is in fact an awesome sight.
What has also stuck with me since, apart from the woeful inadequacy of the media to make sense of it all, has been the inability of politicians, intellectuals and yes, even some activists, to process the simple phenomenon of a mass democratic process unfolding in the streets. The shrill demamgoguery of AM talkradio has beeen echoed by aloofness from less suspect quarters.
Institutions and city fathers promptly ducked and covered. Schools in lockdown, Villaraigosa of all people flanked by the power troika of Baca, Bratton and Romer, frowned sternly as they warned students not to walk. Like every LAUSD parent in town, I’m the unhappy recipient of Romer’s sanctimonious, paternalizing letter explaining how the democratic process is better served in the classroom – preferably with doors locked (or at defcom alert – for that matter). Pundits expound on the folly of abandoning education for chaos on the street (as if dropping out and joining gangs were advocated) confirming the congenital fear this society has of their young. Others are equally adamant against the impudence of walking from sweatshops.
A sad picture of physiological inability to deal with a truly democratic processe and… et tu Brute….? Can it really be that one of the most articulate and knowledgeable writers on labor and immigration would join the boycot naysayers. Isn’t the more appropriate term general strike? And isn’t a strike a legitimate – yes strategic – tool of a popular movement? Isn’t this movement largely about becoming visible to a nation in culpable denial? Is there a better way to attain visibility in a capitalist system than with a work stoppage….? Why must a walkout or a strike be automatically framed as an act of seditious hostility? Could it be because of a historic political disfunction when it comes to the popular movements in this country…?
Questions worth pondering. What is not needed as the movement undergoes the inevitable growing pains is the condescension of “established†and “legitimate†voices towards new “upstartsâ€. That is status quo and good riddance.
Huelga!
Luca Celada
April 28th, 2006 at 2:48 pm
J Cummings,
Your comparison of what has been the will of the people to UFOs is hardly appropriate. It may surprise you, but I believe in UFOs. Every time I look up towards the sky and see an object that I cannot identify I call it a UFO, defined as unidentified flying object. Thus far all of my UFOs have eventually been put into the IFO category after further scrutiny. As to your reference to Christ’s resurrection, I think you’ve managed to offend a number of blog participants. Believe it or not, psychiatry hasn’t established religion as fantasy or delusion.
Our Congress has established laws that govern due process of immigration. This policy has been in effect for decades. American citizens elected these officials through democratic means. The majority of the electorate has supported these laws and not chosen to change them. In theory, Congress represents the will of the people when it enacts legislation.
I find your attitude towards the electorate and illegal aliens is condescending. You hold the view that elitests like yourself know better than the majority of citizens. You also seem to hold the view that illegal aliens are victims, rather than people who with full knowledge that they are in violatiion of our laws and subject to deportation when they cross our borders and purchase forged documents. Jcummings, you insult illegal migrants with your patronizing attitude.
April 28th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
Luca Celada,
Unfortunately for illegal aliens (fortunately for the rest of us), they are foreigners and not entitled to the full democratic rights. They do not have the right to vote and are thus outside the electorate, who are endowed by law to vote. The Constitution defines who has the right to vote, and the founding fathers made provisions for them. J Cummings might interject that the Constitution failed to include blacks either, but fortunately we’re past that.
To sum it up, illegal aliens and resident aliens are not entitled to full rights in our democracy. If they were, we’d probably have an invasion from France.
April 28th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Attitudes develop, emotions respond to the Illegal Immigration
rally issue, then snowballs into complexity and confusion.
A simple solution – at any rally or event for “Illegal Aliens” paperwork to become ‘legal’ could be available to encourage the process to achieve the goal to become a ‘citizen’. People or companies hiring a person who has no ‘right to work’ in the USA are just as ‘illegal’, in the view of the law, as the “Illegal Alien” is in breakiing the law. Paperwork is available to them regarding how to sponsor their employee to citizenship. The how-to in accomplishing this solution is not that difficult.
April 28th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
Off Topic (but not really, spiritually speaking anyway), Springsteen’s “We Shall Overcome: The Seeger Sessions” just came in the mail from Amazon, I’m playing it as I work and am blown away.
It’s utterly American, contemplative, moving, and a bad-ass lotta fun.. Springsteen and his dozen or so musicians recontextualize the songs in a way that feels both entirely spontaneous, and exquisitely deliberate.
Freaking brilliant.
April 28th, 2006 at 3:57 pm
Lonon says,
“People or companies hiring a person who has no ‘right to work’ in the USA are just as ‘illegal’, in the view of the law, as the “Illegal Alien†is in breakiing the law. Paperwork is available to them regarding how to sponsor their employee to citizenship”
If you read my post, you will discover that most employers who hire illegal immigrants comply with the law. I.E., they solicit documents and submit them to the proper authorities.
Employers are generally interested only in the availability and price of labor. Illegal aliens are widely available and cheap. As for sponsoring citizenship, perhaps Intel will do that for a foreigner with a PHD and skills they covet. Not going to happen for a low wage illegal immigrant.
April 28th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
Mr. Cooper,
I may agree that the boycott is not the best thing for pro-immigrant activists to do at this time. But to dilute the boycott with last-minute opposition would be even worse. The nation is waiting to see the economic power of the Latino community. (I say Latino, not illegal immigrant, because not all of those marching are illegal immigrants. Many are citizens whose families would be devastated if the HR. 4437 Sensenbrenner legislation were to pass) If the boycott were to produce less-than-satisfactory economic damage, people would interpret that as though uncocumented immigrants do not play a major role in our nation´s economy and society.
April 28th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
DMAC,
Does your business use the Social Security Death Index? It allows employers (and anyone else for that matter) to check whether their employees SSNs belong to the dead. If you’re not doing that, then you’re not using all avenues for validating them. Check out xxxxhttp://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/ It’s not the be all and end all of tools, but it will at least weed some out.
April 28th, 2006 at 4:24 pm
Lubicus,
If all we are concerned with is the need for useful laborers, we could do what Saudi Arabia and the other rich Arab states do, and thats to have employers sponsor legal migrant through the use of visas. We could easily replace Mexican migrants with Pakistanis, Indian and others in the third world. If we instituted a forgery proof identity card and made it a felony to hire illegal aliens, those illegal migrants would be quickly fired, and made unemployable. Return to their homeland would be the only option remaining to them.
Becoming an equal opportunity employer of third world migrants (including visa carrying Mexicans) would give fair opportunity to everyone, not just rude Mexicans bullying their way across our border. It would also improve our image in the rest of the world. Furthmore, it would show Mexico and the rest of the world that we are a fair nation, a nation of laws and not subject to the influence of foreigner interference in our internal affairs.
Another benefit to hiring Pakistanis and Indians is the fact that we could hire well educated people, and English speakers at that. I worked alongside Pakistanis doing inspection work while in Kuwait for our soldiers. These guys were great workers. They never complained and were always proactive in making positive change. America would have no problem replacing poorly educated illegal migrants, with legal ones at that. And you know, I think that they would play a major role in our economy.
By the way, it’s kind of strange how all of those illegal Mexicans lost their documents. Just how did that happen? I think you might be wrong about that, however. I understand that a great number are documented, only their documents are forged.
April 28th, 2006 at 4:47 pm
Lubicus,
Since you don’t like the term illegal immigrants, the maybe we could compromise and call them forged document immigrants.
April 28th, 2006 at 5:05 pm
It has become increasingly popular among the wealthy, and politically correct to use illegal labor to perform the mundane jobs that the less fortunate among us dont get the chance to do, because the “rich and famous” simply do not want to pay for their part of social – security, medicare, offer health care at an affordiable price, ect. There are plenty of people who want and need the jobs these illeagles have. I think it is a damn shame, there are so many crooks in govt., who have had many employees that they have not had to provide these services for, and I hope that one day we will have a revolution to straighten it all out.
April 28th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
rd – Just got mine today too. That We Shall Overcome is almost startling – a love song ? And who knew Oh Mary Dontcha Weep was Dixieland skiffle ? Beautiful stuff.
April 28th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
marc, your argument against monday’s planned boycott is based on the notion that it would be too confrontational. it’s naive to believe that the political climate is shifting in favor of immigration and that somehow the recent marches contributed to gaining considerable support. a few public opinion polls do not stand up against votes at the ballot box, and many of those demonstrating in favor of immigration are politically disenfranchised. if not now, when?
April 28th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
Well, Marc Cooper has a right to his opinion, but what that has to do with the left is anybody’s guess. Here’s what Barbara Boxer says:
California Sen. Barbara Boxer has a message for those planning to join in on the pro-immigration work boycott planned for May 1 — cool it.
“You’ve made your point,” Boxer told us Friday. “And while I support your right to boycott, I don’t think it does anything more than what you have already achieved with the earlier demonstrations.
“It’s time to put the focus and heat back on Washington to get a fair and balanced plan passed.”
The idea behind the planned immigrant worker boycott is to show the country — through massive “no shows” at work and school — just how strong the sentiment is for making sure those here illegally don’t bear the brunt of immigration reform.
—
Now as long as we understand that Marc Cooper’s politics are firmly esconced in Democratic Party centrism, there should be no problem. It is only when he pontificates about what the left should do in a mainstream newspaper like the LA Times that one might get irritated. John Reed didn’t operate like this, needless to say. If Marc wants to be the next Max Lerner, who would want to stand in the way?
April 28th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
Your arguments for and against the boycott and march are moot. The most radical of the groups are hell bent on that course of action, regardless of what common sense dictates. The amnesty lobby is in the driver’s seat and somehow they think that one day of industrial action is going to hurt the economy so bad that we’ll notice. The fact is that it will only serve to piss many of us off and expend the final bolt for their crossbow. Illegal aliens have so little cash reserves that prolonged action taxes them severely.
April 28th, 2006 at 6:15 pm
“John Reed didn’t operate like this, needless to say.”
Guess that’s why he supported Woodrow Wilson in 1916. From Wilson to Lenin in less than two years…now there’s a brilliant political trajectory to be emulated. Biggest difference to Max Lerner is that Lerner lived long enough to finish the “I was Red when I was young” dance in the Grand Ballroom.
As for TG’s version of “the left”, who could possibly give a shit.
April 28th, 2006 at 9:01 pm
THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM WHEN THESE SHITSKINNED VERMIN MOVE NEXT DOOR TO YOU, MR. COOPER.
April 28th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
Ghandi, Cesar and Martin L thought us well about boycotts. In the most market oriented society in the world, the decision makers listen to their pocket books. Demonstrations by 90% of all citizens of each city will not start compare with people’s economic power.
When the Fords, the Bank of Americas, the Safeways, the large hotel chains, the large restaurant chains, when and until these captains of our economy call their congressmen to influence immigration reform, nothing really positive will change.
We can keep fooling ourselves if we wish. or we can decide how to influence the laws that effect us through the ways we choose to spend our money.
viva Cesar, viva Bapu, viva Martin.
April 28th, 2006 at 11:05 pm
George Wiliams,
An employee gives me a social security number and my payroll service submits that, along with various witholding, to the appropriate agencies. In 5 years, the SSA has challenged the SSN of 1 employee. He sent in another, with 1 altered digit. He left me 2 years ago so I have no idea what number(s) he presently uses.
Properly identifying people will be a crucial part to any resolution of this situation. What needs to happen, as a start, is the following.
Any Mexican citizen (other nations as well) hoping to work in the US, must have a Mexican supplied biometric id. These must be issued in Mexico, at their expense and produced according to technical standards acceptable to the US. When that person enters the US, the id must be “readable”. If they are cleared in Mexico, by the US government, for temporary worker status in the US, an employer here must have their id certified by an independent agency. This agency and data will be managed by the major credit card companies. Any of these people convicted of a felony will be permanently barred from the US. Any murderers jumping back to Mexico will be deported to the US without any regard to their trial potentially subjecting them to the death penalty.
Any employer hiring these “temp workers” will have to withold from their wages and pay into an insurance pool for such workers. This pool will be required to meet any medical expense this worker incurs.
In matters of driving, they will be required to pass a test at their expense. They will only be permitted to drive a vehicle if they pay into a designated insurance pool with coverage limits far in excess of a local driver. Any infraction while driving will incur a ban and any DUI or driving while banned will carry a lifetime ban on driving priveleges. Violation of that will mean deportation.
These are some minor steps that need to be implemented and the onus must be placed on the Mexican government and the illegal immigrant.
As an employer, I make every attempt not to violate the law and indeed, be in compliance. The simple fact however is that all of my competitors employ illegals, some off the books entirely. This undermines the entire system and in some ways, brings us perilously close to the corrupt environment in Mexico.
In a strange way, my business willl benefit to an end to illegal immigration. Lost in this debate that has the mantra of how good these immigrants are for our economy is the fact that productivity from this class of worker lags the general economy. I employ 12 where 8 might be enough. Why, you might ask? Well, their aggregate cost is low enought that I can tolerate the marginal productivity of 4. But in reality, I’d be better served with a more focused and manageable small group.
Last but not least, any amnesty for the present group is a very bad idea. Braying that the problem is too bad and too big to fix the right way is a crock. Indeed, preserving the very status of this country which creates the opportunities these people crave, depends on fixing it right.
Until it does get fixed, a lot of effete white people and their kids would do well to start mowing their own lawns, cleaning their own filth, cooking their own food etc.
With any luck, the illegals who have reverted to Mexico might start to press their own leaders as to why its okk for so many of them to be shipped to the US through lethal deserts and in suffocating boxcars.
April 28th, 2006 at 11:22 pm
I get tickled when those on the left bash Marc Cooper. I get tickled (and to be honest, sometimes pissed off) when those on the right bash me.
Truth is, both of us take on our respective “so called” parties Marc the Dems and me the Reps and the true believers just can’t handle apostasy. Of course, that says far more about the true believers than it ever does about us.
Once upon a time in a post Marc commented on my blog “You can’t trash the Republicans, that’s my job” or words to that effect. No Marc, to be a believable calling the left on their crap needs to come from you as calling the right on their crap needs to come from me. Anything else is pure partisanship when you tackle the Reps or I tackle the Dems. Of course, when I tackle the Dems, I’m far more right then when you tackle the Reps.
Cheers and a great piece in the LATimes.
April 28th, 2006 at 11:56 pm
“No Marc, to be a believable calling the left on their crap needs to come from you as calling the right on their crap needs to come from me.”
No offence Roper but it seems to me that you’ve got a pretty inflated, not to mention deluded sense of self.
April 29th, 2006 at 12:18 am
You speak about “the leaders of the immigrant movement”, but the reality is that such leaders do not exist. Sure, local and national organizations have taken the task of organizing the details of the marches undertaken (routes, cleaning efforts, press releases and the sort). But, truly, immigrants have participated in the movement because they have just done so. With or without the so called “leaders of the immigrant movement”, families, men, women, children and elderly came out and marched because of what was at stake for their lives, and not because of a call by these so called leaders. In fact, the May first “boycott” will happen because people are going to join it, despite the calls of many of these so called leaders not to do so. Truly, we are facing a genuine movement that –paradoxically– has not yet produced leaders who truly speak the heart and mind of the immigrant people. But be certain of these: the leaders are there; they just have not been given the spotlight by the old guard that suddenly found itself witnessing such an spectacular phenomenon and who has vainly attempted to give this movement shape and focus. Wait a few months, and the true leader will surface. For now, the movement is just that: an unstoppable force of human beings driven by the sense of fighting for the betterment of themselves and their families, and their belief that –indeed– America is the land of opportunity and freedom.
April 29th, 2006 at 12:36 am
Ahmed, I was speaking of the two particulars. I could have (should have?) noted that the best criticism of the Left comes from the left and the best criticism of the right comes from the right.
I don’t believe for an instant that that would make it an OK statement as far as you are concerned, but I do find it interesting that you would talk about a “deluded sense of self” rather than comment on the substance of the post from Marc or me. Of course, you merely underscore my assertion that “true believers” can be ignored because they are far more interested in “scoring points” than discussing issues.
April 29th, 2006 at 6:12 am
DMAC,
Most illegal immigrants are using false SSNs, which amounts to identity theft. Either they’re stealing the identity of the living or the dead, most likely the dead. The simple act of using the Social Security Death Index would expose the latter as frauds. Employers could easily refrain from hiring applicants that present false documents.
We all know that the current immigration system bureaucracy is overwhelmed, yet employers eschew proactive methods to discern false from valid Social Security Cards. It would seem to me that good citizens as individuals have a stake in assuring that our laws are enforced, and not rely entirely on the government to do all the work. Employees that present Social Security Cards of the dead should be reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation or local police for identity fraud.
April 29th, 2006 at 6:14 am
Reg says that John Reed voted for Woodrow Wilson in 1916. Yes, that is true. But it is also true that Wilson was perceived as a peace candidate that year, just as LBJ was in 1964. But a year later when Wilson entered the war against Germany, Reed pulled back. Howard Zinn wrote:
By April 1917, Woodrow Wilson was asking Congress to declare war on Germany, and John Reed wrote in the Masses. “War means an ugly mob-madness, crucifying the truth-tellers, choking the artists…. It is not our war.” He testified before Congress against conscription: “I do not believe in this war…I would not serve in it.”
Reed went on to write books like “Ten Days that Shook the World,” while Cooper writes Democratic Party propaganda urging Latinos not to rock the boat in the LA Times. The two could not be more unalike.
Now there’s no reason not to accept Cooper on his own terms as a rather colorful defender of the status quo. Even Howard Fineman can come up with the pungent phrase in Newsweek from time to time. Just don’t mistake this with storming the heavens.
April 29th, 2006 at 9:06 am
Patrick Neid comes closest to describing the reality of the situation we find ourselves in.
It should be clear to all our government bureaucracies do not work. The INS, FAA, FBI, and CIA did not work, allowing the 9/11 disaster to occur. The CIA did not work, allowing the Iraq War disaster to occur. The Army Corp of Engineers, FEMA, State and Local Emergency preparedness agencies did not work, allowing the Katrina disaster to occur.
And the list of failures goes on and on , you know what I mean.
We the people who pay their high salaries and depend on them to do the job we think they’re actually doing, only find out the depth of negligence, incompetence, laziness, just don’t give a damn, or what every the reason(s). until another unbelievable disaster in terms of human suffering, citizen expense, and national treasure(that would be debt now, the treasure has long since been used up) rears its ugly head.
The INS, infamous for sending one of the 9/11 terrorists an extension of his visitors stay weeks AFTER he committed suicide on TV, is still in charge of immigration and border control. What else do we need to know.
I for one am glad to see those here illegally, that the INS failed to deal with when they could have for the last 10 or more years, demanding their rights. It brings before the busy and burdened citizens of our country the magnitude of another ongoing disaster from a literal invasion of unassimilated and socially needy people. Possession is 9/10 of the law they say, and it certainly applies here. A kind and generous country as ours is not going to be splitting up and deporting families that have been allowed to establish their roots here over the years. It would have been nice to see a “Thank You America March” for accepting us and accommodating our language differences at great expense to you, not to mention all the social benefits you normally provide for your citizens at even more expense to you. But alas….not to be.
So now one would think the primary goal for a competent gov’t would be to show they can stop the bleeding through our borders by doing the job we thought we were paying for all along. That is, improve competency of the INS at enforcing the immigration laws on the books, before talking about how to create more laws But no. The primary goal of an incompetent gov’t is to pass more laws now, leading to legalization of those already here, ignorant of the history and failure since 1986, and once again giving a powerful incentive for continued border violations.
IMO, it’s a slow death of more social and financial blood loss from an already emaciated body, caused by a thousand, no millions, of unclosed cuts. Sorry for not being able to be more positive. Don’t let it ruin your Mayday.
April 29th, 2006 at 9:20 am
Is anyone contributing to this blog familiar with the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations? I have my suspicions that forging and using forged social security cards to misrepresent oneself (identity theft) is a felony. If it is so, then those concerned with the issue of making illegal aliens felons due to their illegal status have a moot argument. All illegal aliens who have used forged documents would already be felons. Of course, the politically correct would somehow rationalize that it wasn’t so, but they would be wrong.
April 29th, 2006 at 9:27 am
“Boycotts are powerful and volatile weapons used as a last resort to bust open dams of dogged resistance. You don’t use them when the political tide is even vaguely flowing in your direction.”
Sorry, Marc, the cat’s out of the bag. We can all see this is another face of the left’s Che-soaked fantasy of bringing down the Great Satan. The leaders of the “movement” are exploiting the peasants to achieve their ends–but I guess exploitation is okay if the left is doing the exploiting.
April 29th, 2006 at 9:37 am
Patricia is right. The movement has been tainted by the extreme left. The communists always tend to go for the whole enchalada and fail to recognize their limitations in what is basically a middle of the road political environmnet. Any movement with an extremest cores can only result in a backlash that will destroy the cause for amnesty. Those of us who are against amnesty (which includes the McCain-Kennedy travesty) relish the idea of a march and boycott as it is political suicide for illegal aliens.
April 29th, 2006 at 9:38 am
“When the Fords, the Bank of Americas, the Safeways, the large hotel chains, the large restaurant chains, when and until these captains of our economy call their congressmen to influence immigration reform, nothing really positive will change.”
They already have…that’s why we’ve got McCain-Kennedy and Bush pushing for a “guest-worker” bill.
The conventional wisdom that the United States couldn’t survive without illegal immigrants isn’t the stuff of “storming the heavens”, whatever some of the knee-jerk lefties here might want to imagine – it’s a tenet of some of the most exploitative capitalists.
As for that assertion that Cooper writes “propaganda for the Democratic party”, tell it to Al Gore and Gray Davis.
April 29th, 2006 at 10:10 am
Is the boycott a good move or a bad move for the pro-immigrant crowd? I have no answer for that, because I don’t believe this boycott is being organized for the benefit of immigrants, per se. I know a lot of people who’ve been waiting for a long time to get papers so that they can live legally in this country, and I don’t think the organizers of this boycott care one bit about those people. What would really help, in my view, is if they organized a boycott in Mexico to help the truly oppressed people there.
Did anyone see the letter to the editor in the L.A. Times yesterday, the same day that Marc’s opinion piece ran? It was from Theodore J. Smith III, Chair of the African American Caucus, California Democratic Party. It’s titled: “Citizenship and Opportunity.” Here’s an excerpt:
“…illegal immigration has lowered wages and pushed African Americans out of the building trades and service jobs that were our opportunity to have the American dream. Illegal immigration has also strained education and healthcare services in distressed communities, disproportionally affecting African Americans.”
April 29th, 2006 at 11:08 am
I suspect that most of you are from the LA area, I’m not. I live in Alabama. The sentiments in the south are far less tolerant towards illegal aliens. As an example, Georgia just passed a law that threatens employers of illegal aliens with [prosecution. I believe that this is the first legislation in the country that a state has recognized its obligation to see that our federal laws are not just some abstract idea to be enforced by our overtaxed immigration bureaucracy. Beyond California, I can see many states, especially those without large hispanic communities, doing the same.
Lynn, Illegal aliens may take jobs Americans won’t take has been argued and dismissed as bogus. What hasn’t been addressed is the fact they also take what was once considered lucritive jobs. Carpentry, once an apprenticed trade paying a living wage, is now one that many Americans will not practice because their wages have been undercut by illegal aliens. In the south alone, it is difficult to find any Americans building a home.
April 29th, 2006 at 11:13 am
Speaking of demonstrations…
Here’s a “Liberty Dad” alert – among 11 people arrested for civil disobediance at the Sudanese embassy in Washington DC – protesting their genocidal actions in Darfur – were 5 members of Congress. It happens that they were all Democrats, including several of the most “left”. Their actions were timed to gain more media attention and bring more people to the national Save Darfur Coalition demonstrations this weekend. I’m sure the timidity of our political leaders on Darfur is an “equal opportunity” event with folks avoiding the issue in both parties – but a handful of activists are attempting to break through the silence and it looks like it’s up to the “usual suspects” most concerned about human rights, i.e. the liberals, to begin to raise hell and push for international action. Where were the GOPer conservatives who claim to be concerned about Darfur yesterday ????
April 29th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
George Williams,
When a job applicant comes to our place of business, they have to submit an ssn. In the case of illegal immigrants, they concoct this number or they may use something that’s been passed around. This number is forwarded to the ssa.
As far as using the ssn’s of dead people, I doubt illegal immigrants would go to that trouble. Just make one up and you are, for the most part, home free.
Certain upper level jobs will provoke a company to run a credit check on an applicant, which will immediately flush out the status of the ssn.
At the moment, its only a matter of coincidence until some illegal immigrant starts using either of our ssn’s.
April 29th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
reg wrote: As for that assertion that Cooper writes “propaganda for the Democratic partyâ€, tell it to Al Gore….
Excelsior! (I’m really serial.)
———-
Ladies and gentlemen, Al Gore.
I’m here to educate you about the single biggest threat to our planet. You see, there is something out there which threatens our very existence, and maybe the end to the human race as we know it. I’m talking of course about ManBearPig. It is a creature which roams the earth alone. It is half man, half bear, and half pig. Some people say that ManBearPig isn’t real. Well I’m here to tell you now ManBearPig is very real and he most certainly exists. I’m serial. ManBearPig doesn’t care who you are or what you’ve done. ManBearPig simply wants to get you. I’m super serial. But have no fear because I am here to save you. And someday, when the world is rid of ManBearPig, the world will say; Thank you Al Gore, you’re super awesome.
Thank you all, I’m Al Gore……Excelsior !
—————–
Señoras y caballeros, Al Gore.
Estoy aquà educarle sobre la sola amenaza más grande a nuestro planeta. Usted ve, hay algo fuera de allà que amenaza nuestra misma existencia, y quizá el extremo a la raza humana como la sabemos. Estoy hablando por supuesto sobre ManBearPig. Es una criatura que vaga la tierra solamente. Es medio hombre, medio oso, y medio cerdo. Alguna gente dice que ManBearPig no es verdadero. Pozo estoy aquà decirle que ManBearPig sea muy verdadero ahora y él existe lo más ciertamente posible. Soy serial. ManBearPig no cuida quiénes usted es o lo que usted ha hecho. ManBearPig desea simplemente conseguirle. Soy cuento por entregas estupendo. Pero no tenga ningún miedo porque estoy aquà ahorrarle. Y algún dÃa, cuando el mundo se libra de ManBearPig, el mundo dirá; Gracias Al Gore, usted son impresionante estupendo.
¡Gracias todo, yo son virutas para rellenar de Al Gore…!
—————
Please note that to avoid offending our visitors from south of our former borders, all comments should be in both English and Spanish until Spanish has transitioned to the official language of the U.S. (The National Athem has already been revised!)
In the meantime, I’m boycotting the boycott.
April 29th, 2006 at 1:23 pm
I’ve thought of an interim compromise on the illegal alien issue. It will appeal to the likes of Mar Cooper, Julia Stein and JCummings. I propose that we enact what I’ll call the Illegal Alien Pity Act. Our 1040 income tax forms will have a new option entitled “Illegal Migrant Subsidy.” Taxpayers would have the option to forgo their personal exemption and check this box. Taxpayers who chose to check the IMS box would have their exemption applied to reducing the cost of illegal aliens on the budgets of state governments. Every year each state woud estimate the financial burden of illegal aliens on their economy and submit that information to Washington and get reimbursed accordingly. If their becomes a shortage of funds, the federal government would estimate the number of illegal aliens that would be rounded up to make up for the shortfall in funding. The government would then announce this shortfall in advance of the roundup and request that anyone who wished to save these people from deportation should deposit a charitable contribution in an certain treasury account. People like Marc Cooper, Julia Stein and JCummings could then express their love for illegal aliens. Maybe they could run a marathon charity campaign like Jerry Lewis on a yearly basis. This would soothe the conscience of those who truly love illegal aliens and leave the rest of us to our belief that we should not accept the financial burden of illegal aliens.
April 29th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
Yeah, George, but liberals would also want a box to exempt themselves from paying for our military; and, decent, rational people like you and me would end up paying for all costs to defend this country just because other people are stupid enough to gut the military or not pay for one at all.
Most of the money from the left, what there is, would go to PBS, the National Endowment for the Arts, collecting guns from private citizens, providing free abortions, “saving” health care, saving us from ManBearPig aka global warming, and converting all government publications into French and Spanish.
Until we can agree, let’s just do away with excessive taxes.
April 29th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
http://www.savedarfur.org/rally/
April 29th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
American racism never ceases to astound me.
April 29th, 2006 at 3:53 pm
George Williams: “People like Marc Cooper, Julia Stein and JCummings could then express their love for illegal aliens. Maybe they could run a marathon charity campaign like Jerry Lewis on a yearly basis.”
Must be one of Cooper’s pals from Pajamas Media.
April 29th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
I’m often critical of Marc – probably annoyingly so, if he was telling it – but the snarky bashing, divorced from any coherent argument or purpose other than the purely personal, is ridiculous.
April 29th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
It’s hard out there for a pragmatist.
Thanks for letting us vent on your blog Marc. Sometimes directly at you, unfortunately.
April 29th, 2006 at 5:02 pm
It is left wingnut time again. I am simply amazed at so many people who like to reconstruct history, it boggles the mind in regard to May Day. Also, so many who take advantage of democratic gains fought for with blood and guts, never giving a second thought of where these benefits came from.
Did I hear it right that we celebrate thugs hired by the corporations to split open the heads of union activists on May Day, while we enjoy the fruit of their sacrifice? It just goes to show you how the crumbs that fall from the masters table are so influential, as long as you survive everything is just fine isn’t it?
This reminds me of real work expereinces, where employees that were supposed to support labor reform in their workplace were given a morsel by management, who turned around to spit in the face of their fellow employees reasonable aspirations. Than when they were laid off a year later by their benefactors, so that the bottom line of the corporation could show a larger almighty bottom line, they were shattered. The only thing you need to identify with this experience is that it is the norm at this time with the powers that be – use your mind.
I don’t think anyone who says they support labor should be allowed in the same breath to deny the immigrants use of tools of economic sabotage, which are by far more effective in this capitalistic/corporate haven. But you say “they are illegal aliens not legal immigrants,” how padantic of you to bring out this point – as if legality and the rule of law means a blessed thing in this country! You are such true believers in this present system to produce good legislation – what a wonderful track record you have for making such claims….
As corporations continue to make endruns around us with our wonderful “representative” system, and our financial portfolios begin to turn to dust, I want you to remember with fondness the strike of May 1st 2006 – if it has any effect it might preserve (to a degree) the American dream. After a period of time, you can forget who sacrificed what again – and perpetuate the same stories you do about the previous May Day.
These are issues that go much deeper than your prejudicial and selective application of law, they go to the marrow of humanity. You should have known that how a society treats it’s weakest and most vulnerable human beings, is the measuring stick for the rest of us (legal citizens or not).
I could waste my time typing about what has been done south of the border to bring this continual stream of people – but you would just say that those countries need to treat their people better, with either selective or willful ignorance of what our government (and the rest of the West) does to bring on these events.
In denying these facts of international import, or in truncating their impact, you will never apply the pressure necessary to see a change in foreign policy – where the REAL change must take place. Heaven forbid that you should put the fire out rather than blow away the smoke!
I understand how mired we are in this system, that we have allowed this system to confound our interest with their perverted activities – that shows you how powerful the financial ties are, that we can boldly support such lies to be promulgated.
That we would blame the financial squeeze we experience on the “illegal” immigrant, rather than on the policies of a government that no longer listens to the people but caters to corporations,and as corproations continue to be the biggest welfare recipients. A government that spends billions of dollars on wars of aggression in the name of “spreading democracy.” As they continue to turn everything over to these corporations, which are like little dictatorships, it will only get worse – fascism never gets better (oh boy, i used the “f” word).
My, what a radical rant – that must put the last nail in the coffin of the wingnuttery, so be it. I will never give up my compasion for humanity in the name of false patriotism, or in support for further destruction of the people. Viva la resistance! Fraternity, equality, and liberty – and I mean that with all my heart.
April 29th, 2006 at 6:06 pm
JCummings, you fail to understand me or others who do not feel the social responsibility towards foreign nationals. Regarldess of race, these people are not welcome here under the terms that they’ve dictated to us. This fact is institutionalized in our system of law. My argument have nothing to do with race, but much to do with the arrogance and demands for political power that most people with common sense would say that foreign intruders to our country are not entitled to. I suggest that refer to Webster’s when defining racism. You appear to have stretched the definition to include the defense of national interest. Harboring foreign nationals to the detriment of our citizens economic and social welfare is not in the national interest. Send these people back to their country of origin, and then aid them in their econimic and social revolution. if you must.
April 29th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
There’s no need to go on living this way Virgil.
April 29th, 2006 at 6:11 pm
I use Maker’s Mark myself.
April 29th, 2006 at 6:35 pm
Unlike some of you who claim to be pragmatic, I do not concede that we can do nothing about the presence of 12 million illegal aliens. Only today did I hear that many illegal aliens panicked and stayed out of work after hearing of the recent round-up of over 1,000 illegal workers from a major corporation. One affected company said that the lost over $4 million dollars. It would be easy for the government to continue this round-up on a regular basis and interrupt all companies that employee illegal immigrants. These exploiters of economic refugees would either go out of business, deservedly so, or resort to hiring Americans at higher than the slave labor wages their use to paying. It is evident that the stability of illegal alien labor can be undermined simply by taking action on a few groups at time. Eventually, there would be so many looking for work that many would be forced to go home.
April 29th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
One issue that I haven’t heard much of in the economic equation of illegal immigration is the possible affect on Medicaid and social security. If amnesty is given to those who have been here for many years, there could be a severe hidden burden imposed by these people. Few will be able to obtain social security benefits, as they have been using forged social security cards. Most will never be able to prove their contributions, if any. If given amnesty, they could be declared indigent and entitled to Medicaid in their old age. Expect your Medicare taxes to climb out of sight., but maybe not, as the government might to elect to raise your income tax rate instead. Even if they were to prove their entitlement to social security, contributers generally get more out of the system than they put in. The poor get more out in proportion to their contributions than the middle class or the rich. Make the poor illegal immigrants legal and you’ve compounded the delemma with social security.
April 29th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
Informative post, Virgil Johnson. You’re a breath of fresh air.
April 29th, 2006 at 7:17 pm
Woody:
Yeah, George, but liberals would also want a box to exempt themselves from paying for our military; and, decent, rational people like you and me would end up paying for all costs to defend this country just because other people are stupid enough to gut the military or not pay for one at all.
Most of the money from the left, what there is, would go to PBS, the National Endowment for the Arts, collecting guns from private citizens, providing free abortions, “saving†health care, saving us from ManBearPig aka global warming, and converting all government publications into French and Spanish.
Until we can agree, let’s just do away with excessive taxes.
Hilarious, Woody! You’re quite the comedian.
April 29th, 2006 at 9:06 pm
I would imagine it is pretty frightening to have so many people, 12 million or so, who have experienced the back hand of oppressive policies in their own country. Republican, as well as democratic corporate robots must be shaking in their boots over the prospects of a body politic that might swing the balance in favor people oriented political programs! God forbid that the way governement presently operates might be duly effected.
This might undo all of the hard work of gerymandering that has spelled success in local, state, and federal elections. The present body of politicians in power could not afford to allow this to happen.
That is why the struggle is so strong, while idiots who cannot count without using their fingers continue to make wild and stupid remarks that are not grounded in reality – they swallow the lines of their political parties without realizing that they are cutting their own throats! This is why a much stronger demand must be made for blanket citizenship – only holding the politicians feet to the fire will change anything, and when has anything but this ever been true? Anything that benefits the people must be fought for tooth and nail – and if you have not considered this scenario you have either had a mental lapse or have failed to do your homework!
However, they will rake in their money without any representation even if it is aquired by “illegal” means, won’t they? Not that it is any different than all who pay their tax dues, who get nothing that is of benefit for the people (and we are not even illegal immigrants)! They will take their bodies through their desperation to become citizens, and throw them in the front lines of a illegal war and than send their green card home with their caskets! They, as a people, have died in wars for America, even more so because we know how much this governement like to recruit the poor and disadvantaged.
In schools they will educate them minus their rich heritage of contribution in America. However, the public schools are more than happy to collect the money that keeps this public education system afloat – employing thousands of teachers. They will not adjust their cirriculum to either make it easier for the immigrant to assimilate, and than punish the education system for “inadequate” instruction.
You are fond of bashing the fraud of deperate people who will use a social security number that is not theirs, but say nothing of the fraud that takes place on a massive scale in foreign policy. Where hope is held out to a people only to enrich a few while the people literally die by the millions. Nor will you speak of a government which finances debt on the backs of it’s people in order to enrich a small elite. Trillions of dollars traverse the rarified atmosphere that will not benefit you, while you allow them to gut the infrastructure of production – are you insane?
You do not know what poverty and no future does to people (even though you are heading like lemmings in the same direction). Perhaps you are fat with what you have, making it hard to think through these issues because you have lived a life of tenuous privilege. Yet you embrace a false insulation as the democractic lanscape receeds with ferocity. All you need is those “aliens” that hold your finance of the dollar to sell off their investment (or just reinvest), and the house of cards that you think is indestructible will be no more.
You are so brainwashed by the trash you hear from your corporate media that you embrace that which is ultimately destructive, that which might be a sign of hope you shun by dutifully repeating the propaganda you have absorbed! That is okay, those who have not swallowed the corporate pap will do the brunt of the work.
Go and entertain yourselves to death, while people who have a sense of reality try to change the course of the future to the benefit of the people. Let those who have lived like slaves do your grunt work – if we fail than you can laugh at us and call us fools, if we win than you can claim the victory and ride the wave. Hopefully when the smoke clears the fear of God will be put into the elite like it was on that May Day years ago, and if not – at least we tried to do something.
April 29th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
Notwithstanding how many millions take to the streets on Monday, the best policy for the US government is to ratchet up the tension on those living and working here illegally.
New laws or bills are foolish because there also has to be stress in Mexico, something that won’t happen unless millions take to the streets there. Of course, were Mexicans to march in the numbers there that they threaten for here on Monday, bullets would fly and blood would flow. Look how they treated the natives in Chiapas.
Send 12 million back south to fight the oligarchs and tyrants and arm them in the process.
April 29th, 2006 at 11:29 pm
Marc, please be my personal guest at the boycott Monday morning. You can be the one passing out the bumperstickers that say, “I trust my Congressman and U.S. Senator.”
April 29th, 2006 at 11:45 pm
DMAC,
Perhaps you have never heard of NAFTA? The oligarchs and tyrants, let’s say in Mexico, are who and what they are by American interest in the region. The US will never disrupt a country which has allowed it’s population to be exploited, I hope you understand that concept (“send 12 million back south to fight the oligarchs and tyrants and arm them in the process”). In plain language, WE ARE the oligarchs and tyrants – is that simple enough?
Why would the US send anyone back to fight against their (transnational corporations) interest? My God man, we send the troops in to protect our precious corporations! By way of information, here is a small incomplete list of who is in Mexico just so you understand (taking advantage of cheap labor, ripping off resources, and destroying the environment):
DELPHI
LEAR
GENERAL ELECTRIC
OFFSHORE GROUP
SCI
THOMSON
JABIL
VISTEON
KEMET
CARDINAL
MALLINCKRODT
WHIRLPOOL
A.O. SMITH
TYCO
EMERSON
MOTOROLA
HONEYWELL
TRW
KET SAFETY
BOSCH
LEXMARK
CHAMBERLIN
ITT
PLANTRONICS
JOHNSON CONTROLS
MOLEX
LEVITON
SCIENTIFC ATLANTA
BOSE
AVERY
NOMA
KEY TRONIC
TRICO
IBM
TI GROUP AUTOMOTIVE
ALLIED SIGNAL
AVX
MATTEL
AVAIL MEDICAL
ADVANCE TRANSFORMER
SCHLAGE
YALE
AVENT
EDS MANUFACTURING
PHELPS DODGE MAGNET WIRE
EATON
VF IMAGEWEAR
ACCO
SKYWORK SOLUTIONS
NATIONAL PROCESSING
EDM IMTERNATIONAL
BENCHMARK ELECTRONICS
ACCURIDE INTERNATIONAL
SATURN ELECTRONICS
NCH PROMOTIONAL
COOPER-STANDARD
SUPERIOR INDUSTRIES INT.
INVENSYS
STRATTEC
AUTOMOTIVE SAFETY
ARVIN MERITOR
PLEXUS
DATAMARK
COILCRAFT
HAMILTON-PROTOR SILEX
HAYES LEMMERZ
MACK TECHNOLOGIES
ETC.
Go look them up on the stock exchange. Get the picture? I hope so.
April 29th, 2006 at 11:54 pm
May Day With a Heart
http://www.newsocialist.org/index.php?id=822
April 30th, 2006 at 4:31 am
May Day…it’s like Christmas for liberals.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:27 am
It’s absolutely amazing to me to come across so many people (both on the net and in the real world) who are openly speaking of another Mexican-American War… like it’s a good thing, like it’s something they really want, in the worst way.
I realize that the immigration debate is making a lot of people slightly unhinged, and feeding on every single strand of fear and paranoia in the collective psyche of white America.
But, for cryin’ out loud, have you people lost it? Have you tossed whatever shred of sanity and decency you had left out the window? Do you really think that reinforcing your status as the most hated state in the world is a healthy thing? Something beneficial to your children? Do you actually entertain murderous thoughts against those who tend your gardens, care for your children, clean the shit and the filth from the public restrooms that you befoul?
I can’t believe that this is the same America that I grew up in. It’s like I woke up in a different country.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:43 am
Two essays that I always point people to on this topic are Michael Lind’s “To Have and to Have Not” and Israel Shamir’s “On The Move“.
Shamir’s essay is not dated but, if memory serves, it was composed in September or October of 2001.
Lind’s essay is not only about immigration, although immigration is an important facet of what he discusses within the text. It’s also quite long, but well worth the read.
Both essays will go you a much better insight into the role of immigration and the way the world works than any amount of horseshit that you might ingest from the likes of Michelle Malkin, VDare, or the Pajamas Media troupe.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:24 am
Virgil, no revolution has ever taken place by the poplulace departing en masse. Since you care so much about the exploited of Mexico, you should be supporting deportation and a wall. Someone here made the point that change will never be effected in Mexico if their government has a safety valve in the form of illegal immigration.
You patronize Mexicans when you blame their plight entirely on the U.S. They elected the government that signed NAFTA. They chose to abandon their country knowing full well that they would not be offered citizenship. If they hide in the shadows, it was because they chose their own fate, as unwelcome visitors. They claim to be proud citizens of Mexico, so let them take their destiny into their own hands and make a better life in Mexico. They should go back to their homeland and vote to renounce NAFTA and choose better government. I suspect that those who have remained in Mexico would appreciate their support in effecting change.
We have our own poor class who desperately need help, and now we’re being asked to sacrifice some of our precious resources for foreigners. We already have a mechanism for that.. It’s called foreign aid.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:26 am
And speaking of VDare, that LGF link I included in the first post is to a post by a Norwegian blogger named Fjordman, who happens to be a VDare favorite.
Read it for yourself to get a gist of where we’re at right now, and where we’re headed. A quick summary:
“If you don’t beat those beaners back across the border, the diaperheads and the chinks are gonna take it as a sign of weakness, and before you know it, nukes will be going off everywhere, western civilization will end, your men will all be killed, your children will be sold into slavery, and your women will have their clits chopped off and be made to satisfy the sexual urges of swarthy mudslum savages. I’m super serial.“
There are (and I’m being quite conservative with my estimate here) at the very least hundreds of thousands people, in this country alone, who take this sentiment to heart and view it as gospel truth. And I hate to sound like a broken record, but I never saw something like this coming the pike… no way, never in a million years, not here. Not even after 9/11.
And yet here we are. Jim Rockford has gone mainstream.
The people who embrace this ideology are the same ones who eagerly swallow the mountainous pile of lies shoved down their throats by self-interested third parties, posing as “patriotic Americans”, who are eager to sell this nation on the idea of “civilizational war” between “Islam” and “the West”, followed by Russia and “the West”, China and “the West”, etc.
Well, as they say, self-preservation is the highest law. And I’ve reached the point where I’m ready to take to the streets waving a “Viva Aztlan!” placard of my own.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:29 am
(the first time I tried to post this it went straight to “moderation” limbo, so I’m reposting it with only two links)
************
And speaking of VDare, that LGF link I included in the first post is to a post by a Norwegian blogger named Fjordman, who happens to be a VDare favorite.
Read it for yourself to get a gist of where we’re at right now, and where we’re headed. A quick summary:
“If you don’t beat those beaners back across the border, the diaperheads and the chinks are gonna take it as a sign of weakness, and before you know it, nukes will be going off everywhere, western civilization will end, your men will all be killed, your children will be sold into slavery, and your women will have their clits chopped off and be made to satisfy the sexual urges of swarthy mudslum savages. I’m super serial.“
There are (and I’m being quite conservative with my estimate here) at the very least hundreds of thousands people, in this country alone, who take this sentiment to heart and view it as gospel truth. And I hate to sound like a broken record, but I never saw something like this coming the pike… no way, never in a million years, not here. Not even after 9/11.
And yet here we are. Jim Rockford has gone mainstream.
The people who embrace this ideology are the same ones who eagerly swallow the mountainous pile of lies shoved down their throats by self-interested third parties, posing as “patriotic Americans”, who are eager to sell this nation on the idea of “civilizational war” between “Islam” and “the West”, followed by Russia and “the West”, China and “the West”, etc.
Well, as they say, self-preservation is the highest law. And I’ve reached the point where I’m ready to take to the streets waving a “Viva Aztlan!” placard of my own.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:30 am
Screw it,
“moderation” limbo done gone hyper. I’ll try posting again, later.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:52 am
Write your representatives. Our government should call upon the United Nations to engage in sanctions against Mexico for encouraging the illegal migration of its workers and the economic policies that have forced one in eight of its citizens to become economic refugees.
Consider engaging in a boycott of all Mexican goods, one that would continue until Mexico is enforces border regulations from its side.
Outlaw the use of matricular consular cards as valid identification. Require that only certain unforgeable identity cards issued by the federal government be acceptable for use in transfer of funds to overseas locations.
Most of all, write your congressman and tell him how you feel about the illegal alien issue.
April 30th, 2006 at 7:20 am
And speaking of VDare, that LGF link I included in the first post is to a post by a Norwegian blogger named Fjordman, who happens to be a VDare favorite.
Read it for yourself to get a gist of where we’re at right now, and where we’re headed. A quick summary:
“If you don’t beat those beaners back across the border, the diaperheads and the chinks are gonna take it as a sign of weakness, and before you know it, nukes will be going off everywhere, western civilization will end, your men will all be killed, your children will be sold into slavery, and your women will have their clits chopped off and be made to satisfy the sexual urges of swarthy mudslum savages. I’m super serial.”
There are (and I’m being quite conservative with my estimate here) at the very least hundreds of thousands people, in this country alone, who take this sentiment to heart and view it as gospel truth. And I hate to sound like a broken record, but I never saw something like this coming the pike… no way, never in a million years, not here. Not even after 9/11.
And yet here we are. Jim Rockford has gone mainstream.
The people who embrace this ideology are the same ones who eagerly, and mindlessly, swallow the mountainous pile of lies shoved down their throats by self-interested third parties, posing as “patriotic Americans”, who are eager to sell this nation on the idea of “civilizational war” between “Islam” and “the West”, followed by Russia and “the West”, China and “the West”, etc.
Well, as they say, self-preservation is the highest law. And I’ve reached the point where I’m ready to take to the streets waving a “Viva Aztlan!” placard of my own.
April 30th, 2006 at 7:28 am
And speaking of VDare, that LGF link I included in the first post is to a post by a Norwegian blogger named Fjordman, who happens to be a VDare favorite.
Read it for yourself to get a gist of where we’re at right now, and where we’re headed. A quick summary:
“If you don’t beat those beaners back across the border, the diaperheads and the chinks are gonna take it as a sign of weakness, and before you know it, nukes will be going off everywhere, western civilization will end, your men will all be killed, your children will be sold into slavery, and your women will have their clits chopped off and be made to satisfy the sexual urges of swarthy mudslum savages. I’m super serial.“
There are (and I’m being quite conservative with my estimate here) at the very least hundreds of thousands people, in this country alone, who take this sentiment to heart and view it as gospel truth. And I hate to sound like a broken record, but I never saw something like this coming the pike… no way, never in a million years, not here. Not even after 9/11.
And yet here we are. Jim Rockford has gone mainstream.
April 30th, 2006 at 7:29 am
The people who embrace this ideology are the same ones who eagerly, and mindlessly, swallow the mountainous pile of lies shoved down their throats by self-interested third parties, posing as “patriotic Americans”, who are eager to sell this nation on the idea of “civilizational war” between “Islam” and “the West”, followed by Russia and “the West”, China and “the West”, etc.
Well, as they say, self-preservation is the highest law. And I’ve reached the point where I’m ready to take to the streets waving a “Viva Aztlan!” placard of my own.
April 30th, 2006 at 7:31 am
Marc signed the Euston Manifesto (me too), set up by pro-Iraq democracy socialist Norm Geras. Who doesn’t understand about the Spanish language Star Spangled Banner:
Norm is being dense, uncharacteristically dense. He says he doesn’t get this (on the Star Spangled Banner in Spanish): And I think people who want to be a citizen of this country ought to learn English,” Bush said. “And they ought to learn to sing the national anthem in English.”
Bush is welcoming of immigrants, but primarily those immigrants who want to become Americans. Who want to live in America, contribute to America; to love America. (See Peggy Noonan a couple of weeks earlier).
At the end of the article Norm starts out quoting:
Bush was not being politically calculating and has always believed that new immigrants should embrace the national language and culture.
I don’t quite believe that Norm doesn’t understand this, even though most of his post is about the Star Spangled Banner in other languages. (Maybe I should try putting it into Slovak?)
(My own way to solve the illegal problem, besides hugely increasing the number of legals, includes a requirement for all to pay for English lessons, whether they attend, or not.)
Norm says: “And having a Spanish version is a way for Spanish-speaking US citizens to embrace the anthem to their bosomsâ€
No, in the context of 12 million criminal illegals now in America, it is a call to impose a Spanish speaking culture thru an amnesty, and to give the bold and/or desperate illegal immigrants preference over those who have been legally waiting in line. For years; some for decades. Rewarding illegal behavior is a gross injustice, and in today’s political climate of searching for a solution to illegal immigration, the Spanish Star Spangled Banner reminds any justice oriented American of the injustice of amnesty.
I truly don’t understand why Norm doesn’t understand this. I even suspect he does, but is avoiding actually saying he supports the imposition, thru demographics, of Mexican culture on top of America. I wonder how he’d feel about a huge Arabic rally in France with an Arabic version of their anthem — or in the UK of God Save the Queen.
It’s not the music, it’s the cultural imposition.
Which reminds me that one reason America is hated is the peaceful, voluntary success of Hollywood movies and the materialism and anti-spiritualism so many movies implicitly advocate. Thus my critique of Norm nicely segues into his fine Euston Manifesto and great statement opposing Anti-Americanism. The cultural imposition of America is one of the main emotional reasons for that Anti-Americanism; and any Socialist should know the emptiness of consumeristic materialism.
April 30th, 2006 at 7:36 am
In LA they already have. The language is here and normal, so who doesn’t think they won’t speak spanish exclusively?
April 30th, 2006 at 7:37 am
Abbas-Ali,
Excellent essays, both. (Lind and Shamir) Thank you. From Lind: “Supported by the news media, which it largely owns, the oligarchy has waged its war of attrition against the wage-earning majority on several fronts: regressive taxation, the expatriation of industry, and mass immigration.”
April 30th, 2006 at 8:17 am
Yeah, Lynn.
Commentary that actually tackles (BahBahBahBUUUUM!!! or whatever sinister theme you prefer) “root causes” is so rare and refereshing. It’s much easier to be a Joe Guzzardi, Michelle Malkin or Charles Johnson and peddle dehumanizing, exterminationist rhetoric to fear-stricken, paranoid hayseeds.
April 30th, 2006 at 9:28 am
If America is hated so much, why are others risking their life and life savings to batter our borders to get in, unlike other countries that have put up walls to keep their people in?
From some posts here, it seems there may be more hate from within than out. Wouldn’t it be a good idea if one could trade or sell their citizenship for anothers in another country of your choice. It could be done on eBay, for example, to the highest bidder. Once sold, you would switch citizenships and the winning bidder would pay you the winning bid. It would be interesting to see just how valuable an American citizenship would be compared to others.
Yes Virgil, competition and capitalism has its ugly side when it gets to powerful compared to labor. But you have to admit so does labor when it gets too powerful over companies. It took competition from Japan in cars and motorcycles to get powerful union workers at Ford, GM and Harley Davidson to clean up their work product. No amount of American bitching about their shit, without an alternate product, would have done a damn thing to change it and you know it.
Now with the globalization of capitalism and labor, capitalism has gotten to powerful and clear abuse of labor and their rights are being abused. But America, or any country for that matter, only has so much control over a global company without causing it to move to another country. Just like US States compete for companies and the jobs they provide, well now so do countries compete with each other.
Finally to my point Virgil, America is far from perfect and I hope you understand it is way ahead of whoever is in second place. This is why immigrants want to come here over all others. It could and should be better and that is up to us to use our votes and democratic energies to get out votes to remove more lifers in Washington. Because of the greed of States that have powerful porkers sending home the bacon, this is getting more and more difficult for us to do, not to mention the corruption of political contributions from business. We need to try and I am going to in the next election.
America is competing in a world market for companies and jobs. We do not have the control and power over the companies that you list that you think we do. We are not responsible for all their behaviors in other countries.
A good political system is a balancing act between two competing interests, Capital and Labor, and I can only admit it is getting way out of balance in favor of Capital. I hope you can admit a huge influx of uninvited cheap labor is not helping right now. NAFTA has hurt the American laborer as much or more that the Mexican laborer. Should our lowered income in a much more expensive country to live in go to pay for the needs of so many needy migrants when we have so many more needy citizens of our own to carry?
April 30th, 2006 at 9:28 am
Yes, looking at root causes, and seeing how you/we personally benefit, or sell-out, or lose is the hardest form of analyzation of social problems. I doubt that it will ever become fashionable. Speaking and acting from emotionalism or fear will probably (sadly) always be the way of popular punditry on either side of the issue.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:02 am
In these forums, I find myself agreeing with many points brought up, regardless of whether the poster is looking for the same outcome as I am. There are certain fundamental truths. In the end we are all wanting a solution, that our legislators are stalling in delivering, because they are taking their cues from the wind, and balancing their decisions on the nod from Lind’s “overclass.” Even the great Decider wavers. Let’s point our fingers at the those who are most deserving of our scorn.
Further, Jim Russell, it is not reasonable to argue logic with someone who is committed to one and only one ideal, and doesn’t have the capacity, nor the desire to see another. Pass the Maker’s Mark.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:04 am
Virgil,
I’m not an expert on this topic but I speak as a one time illegal immigrant and presently as a businessman in LA who employs a lot of Mexican illegal immigrants. Additionally, a fair amount of my business is conducted in Mexico.
When I go to Mexico City and play golf in Chapultepec, I’m often surprised at the derisive manner in which my “upper class” Mexican hosts treat the lower echelon workers. If we treated illegal immigrants in this country in a similar fashion, you’d never here the end of it.
As for NAFTA, if all of the illegal Mexican immigrants here could get jobs at the major US companies located in Mexico, very few would come here.
The simple fact is that NAFTA and US companies have done more to lift the burden of misery from Mexican workers than the Mexican government has ever done.
Its also a sad fact that in this world, certain population groups are far more quiescent when it comes to tyranny than are others. When tyranny loomed too large in Britain, they forced the Magna Carta. Hundreds of years later, when similar tyranny arose in the American colonies, many brave men put their lives on the line.
Its a simple economic fact that when you increase demand, supply generally increases as well. In this case, we have a distorted demand for uneducated labor. As that demand continues, the supply will increase.
Legalizing the millions of illegal immigrants in this country will solve nothing. Some unions are horny for all these new members because unions are dying off. If they get them and force up wages, all that will do is create more demand for illegals to do the work for even less.
Guess who will want to build a wall then?
April 30th, 2006 at 11:27 am
DMAC: “I’m not an expert on this topic but I speak as a one time illegal immigrant and presently as a businessman in LA who employs a lot of Mexican illegal immigrants.”
God, the comments section of this blog is infested with ultrarightists. I wonder if this was Cooper’s goal to begin with. He foams at the mouth when the occasional supporter of Noam Chomsky says something not to his liking, while allowing this kind of garbage to seep in unchallenged.
April 30th, 2006 at 11:44 am
Abbas,
It is indeed difficult to reason with lunatics and individuals who do not want to use their limited mental apparatus. This just shows us that they are not even aware of the workings of their own government, and are blind to the plight of the rest of the world – but what else can we expect, when you consider the trash they swallow every day from corporate media. Nor are they aware of the nature of their own legal instiutions, which selectively apply enforcement with prejudice – it is simply amazing, mind boggling.
George,
I don’t know where to start with you, you must live in a tower somewhere giving you the ability to spew faulty reasoning. You don’t need to write your representatives – because they may employ some of the “remedies” you tout not because they are good ideas, but to continue the twisted status quo. Indeed, you must have lost your mind to think that they would listen to you – they only listen to corporate money.
The very reason there is a immigramt safety valve is for the protection of corporate monied interest, there will be no sanctions against Mexico – they are our boys! Get it? They will not derail their dream of corporate globalization, period. You are talking about profitability here, and the bottom line is the ONLY thing that matters – did you think that you mattered? Do you think the poor people south of the border matter? What world do you live in? I cannot conceive of such self-delusionary thinking, that people would be preffered above corporations by this present system – what country do you live in?
For those who think this is America bashing, let me be perfectly clear – the democratic landscape we all enjoy (which is rapidly receeding) is part of America. That is the America I love, do you think democracy sprung from the hallowed halls in Washington? What a crock! America is the people and that is a radically different view than the trolls you presently have in power. Some day you will have to learn to discern between these two views of America – damn, I hope it’s soon!
Jim, what do you mean “competition and capitalism is ugly when it gets to powerful compared to labor” ? It is not merely ugly, it is deadly – it is genocidal, and it becomes almost unstopable when the most powerful government on the earth gives it carte blanch!
What do you mean we have “no power” over these corporate monoliths? Where the hell is there charter for Christ’s sake?! Where is the enforcement of the clause “the public good?” Finally, where do the proffer their products? Why here, in consumer heaven – than it needs to be cleaned up here. Will it happen? NO, …why? Go ask the lobbyists – I mean this is really not rocket science. As a side note, the internet is next – my suggestion is that you get situated under a corporate umbrella on the web, or your going to be toast – everything is for sale to the highest bidder. Are you going to elect your way out of this mess? That has about as much chance of happening as democracy taking root in Iraq, you have no choices and both parties are in bed with corporations – good luck.
Finally, immigrants come over here because there is some democractic landscape left. I think the only fault in this logic is that they assume that a beast will not shit in it’s own nest – they are wrong about that. Bush’s temporary permit is just more meat for his corporate dogs, and the system we have wants to perpetuate a never ending under class. God bless America!
http://www.epitaph.com/videos/player/695
Here is a song (above) by the artist Tom Wait, I think it faithfully depicts our current condition. Now I have to go to organization meetings, you keep writing your congressmen….
April 30th, 2006 at 12:26 pm
Virgil said: “Finally, immigrants come over here because there is some democractic landscape left.”
Immigrants come here because there are jobs! Jobs that are dangled by the corporate world and supported by our elected reps. Geez, what world do YOU live in? You say anyone trying to reason through the barrage of trash being handed out through corporate media is delusional. So your solution is to import more slaves to corporate manipulation? You place a halo around each and every head that struggles its way through the border, because you think they can be used to back your particular brand of world order. It just aint gonna happen. As they settle in, most will sell their souls for a little house, with an RV in the driveway, because just as Waits says:
“There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby It’s a deal, it’s a deal”
You will help set the trap. But not to worry, as wages go up, and apathy sets in, there will be hundreds of thousands more to “organize.”
Waits, by the way is a great dad. His kid attended the same private school mine did, in the 80s.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:30 pm
DMAC: “Its also a sad fact that in this world, certain population groups are far more quiescent when it comes to tyranny than are others. When tyranny loomed too large in Britain, they forced the Magna Carta.”
Yes, and nowadays the formerly proud Britons meekly assent to the foulest of statist depredations without so much as a whimper of protest.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:34 pm
Lynn: “Immigrants come here because there are jobs! Jobs that are dangled by the corporate world and supported by our elected reps.”
I was going to correct Virgil as well, by substituting “material betterment” for “democratic landscape”, but “jobs” is just as good.
April 30th, 2006 at 12:57 pm
DMAC: “Hundreds of years later, when similar tyranny arose in the American colonies, many brave men put their lives on the line.”
Since I don’t believe in reinventing the wheel, I’ll just post something I wrote recently in response to an email from a friend who stated, in so many words, that the only reason Iranians were in favor of Ahmadinejad’s nuclear energy program was because they didn’t know any better — the government’s point of view was the only one they were exposed to, hence they accepted it as truth without question. A very surprising position from someone who had been back to Iran fairly recently, as have I. Some of the language may seem a little unduly harsh, but since Americans have no qualms about judging the rest of the world in the harshest possible manner, I figure that they/you/we are thick-skinned enough to take it. The criticism is coming from a “place” of concern, and is not “anti-” anything for its own sake.
Oh, “saltanat talab” means monarchist and “Jumhuriyye Eslami” means Islamic Republic.
***************
I very much disagree with what you said here. Back in the good old days of the Cold War, when foreigners would visit Russia they would be shocked at how well-informed and educated the Russian public was, particularly when it came to foreign affairs, considering how Pravda and other state-owned and sanctioned outlets were the only media they had access to.
The common reply of Russians was, “yes, we read Pravda. But we know how to read Pravda.”
Personal experience tells me that Iranians are no less shrewd and discerning than Russians when it comes to separating facts from fiction and recognizing propaganda (from all sides) for what it is. Many of the strongest supporters of Iran’s nuclear program are opposed to the policies of the Jumhuriyye Eslami in almost every other instance. Many of them also have access to the same media outlets that we do, including the endless array of wild-eyed, foam-flecked gusano saltanat talab nutjobs who broadcast out of southern California.
These people, correctly, see nuclear energy as a right for the Iranian nation — a right that the “international community” can’t retract on a whim, or based on which nation is or is not on the good side of USrael.
Also, compare and contrast the difference between:
1. The intelligence and shrewdness of Iranians, when it comes to questioning everything that anyone in a position of authority, particularly state authority tells them (from speculating on the hidden motives of the individual in question, to whether or not he is even speaking the truth)
and
2. The willful and socially engineered ignorance, stupidity and gullibility of the average American who blindly accepts anything that is told him provided someone waves a badge or a flag in his face beforehand, and who views authority, particularly state authority, not as a cause for suspicion but as prima facie evidence of the individual’s truth of speech and purity of heart.
April 30th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
Virgil, I have only to point to the efficacy of of Lou Dobbs campaign against the wisdom of the Dubai ports deal to validate my contention that voters still have influence over their representatives. If the points of your diatribe were absolute truths, then big business would have once again triumphed. How do you answer that?
April 30th, 2006 at 1:48 pm
Tom Grosman,
Interesting response – you quote me then begin your reply with “God, ”
Were you addressing me or do you begin every comment with a prayer?
April 30th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
George,
Dear Leader is now pushing another, even more lucrative (for him and his buddies, that is), Dubai deal. This one involving military contracts.
He’ll have his way, come hell or high water, apparently.
April 30th, 2006 at 1:55 pm
Grossman was praying that some unspecified ultrarightists would disappear. I believe it should have gone something like this: “God, I am beleagered by persons with opinions different from myself. I wish that everyone would just validate my thoughts and I’d be happy once more.”
April 30th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
I don’t care if George Williams, DMAC or any other rightwinger posts here. I was merely making an observation on the blog’s ecology. Sort of like a National Geographic documentary taking note of a certain kind of parasite attaching itself to elephant dung.
April 30th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Do I understand your right, that we’re parasites attached to a blog that you consider analagious to elephant dung?
April 30th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
If that’s so, then that would make you………?
April 30th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
It would be better if the blogs of Cooper and other dilletantes were liberally salted with posts from people who deal with this illegal immigration issue first hand.
For businessmen, this issue is a Mexican standoff (no pun intended). No one wants to be placed at a disadvantage by someone who is hiring cheap and statutorally illegal labor.
When a whole series of laws are being broken, the answer is not to create new ones and indemnify the law breakers.
The mantra “these people are doing jobs Americans won’t do” should be changed to “these people are doing jobs no one should do”. Agriculture and animal slaughter,(to name 2) should be automated.
A lot of these jobs are the equivalent of sending children up chimneys in Victorian times. Tighten the noose on illegal immigration and Tyson will be forced to develop machines to kill and eviscerate chickens.
As long as a porous border and lax enforcement provide a steady stream of labor, they will not change anything.
In a sense, that goes for me as well.
April 30th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
DMAC,
I agree with you. However, I would say that those jobs that would still need to be done by hand should be well paid, at least until technology catches up to necessity.
April 30th, 2006 at 2:23 pm
DMAC: “Tyson will be forced to develop machines to kill and eviscerate chickens.”
Is the mechanization of labour really any better than importing serf labour?
If so, better for whom, exactly?
April 30th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
Damn that’s a good one Tom. Mind if I copy and save for future strategic use?
AAA, The world cannot let dictatorships, especially of the radical religious kind, obtain nuclear bombs. The current leaders of Iran remind the world community daily, with their crazy rhetoric, why this is so.
Virgil makes some good points and keeps the heat on the greedy selfish capitalists. Voices like his are helpful. It’s too bad most capitalist nations are the more modern and successful because they cater more closely to the more powerful instincts of human nature; self interest, competition and greed. Look at all the great services and products and stuff that trickles down from that darker side of us though.
April 30th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
Abbas-Ali has a point. Unfortunately, mechanization is an imutable law that always leaves the unskilled laborer umemployed. Such has been his lot since the beginning of the industrial revolution. The only remmedy to those affected by mechanization is re-education and retraining. This is where social supports and capitalism have to interact to assist the worker.
April 30th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
Tom and Jim, I try to refrain from pointing out the obvious, but I re-iterate, if we ultra-rightest (for the sake of argument) are the parasites, doesn’t that make you part of the elephant dung?
April 30th, 2006 at 2:49 pm
Abbas,
Profitable mechanized production is good for the people who own the means of production and the societies in which they function.
You might be interested to know that some parts of Mexican agriculture are more mechanized than in California’s San Joaquin valley. This has been driven by the labor shortage created by workers going to the US.
Its more than an irony that migrant farm labor has spared their Mexican brothers from having to stoop in the fields on 120 degree days.
April 30th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Excellent response DMAC. Much of the stoop labor done in the U.S. could be made amenable to mechanization through bioengineering and good agricultural practices. Genetic engineering used to shape plant structures, coupled with proper garden geometry would make this possible. The problem is that we’re discouraging this through the use of illegal migrant labor.
April 30th, 2006 at 4:04 pm
“In Pomona, Calif., about 30 miles east of Los Angeles, dozens of men who frequent a day labor center voted unanimously to close Monday, said Mike Nava, the center’s director.
“If anyone even comes around looking for work that day,” Nava said, “the men want him suspended.”
This is great – you risk your life to get to a place where you can ply your services only to meet the attavistic collectivism you thought you left behind.
April 30th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
George Williams,
I’m all for bio-engineering that would make crops suitable for mechanical harvesting.
This whole immigration debate, from the illegal immigrants point of view, is about gaining the sort of documentation that would enable them to apply for jobs from which they are presently excluded.
I’m a resident of Los Angeles and you can bet everything you have that an illegal immigrant will never become a fireman or other direct city employee. Villagrossa will protect the unions in that respect.
What might be interesting would be if a lot of newly legalized immigrants showed up at the fire stations and started demanding jobs, at a fraction of the pay of the present employees. This is one reason the unions most active in seeking to legalize these immigrants are the ones that cover service employees, such as hotel workers.
John Sweeney of the AFL-CIO is much more reluctant about any “immigration reform” becuse he knows that any smart immigrant with legit paperwork will abandon the pig killing to challenge one of his members for work.
Controlling the border and enforcing present laws has to come first. Otherwise this will be 1986 all over again and the problem will be revisited in another 10-15 years.
April 30th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
I havent slogged (or tried to slog) through a more boring thread in I can’t remember how long.
I think, unless one of u has some really NEW idea to state, we can close this one off. Please.
I have not had time to edit out the really offensive posts.Some of this come from a link from the L.A. Times — not a rightwing blog.
I also appreciate the comments from Tom Grossman — who able proves that lefties can be just as ugly, mean-spirited and ulitmately ignorant as can anyone on the right.
April 30th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
In 1967, I think Marc Cooper would have been joining the folks who condemned Martin Luther King’s speech against the Vietnam War because such things were not ‘practical’. Is that fair to suspect Marc?
April 30th, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Aaron: oK deal me in on this hand. In 1967 at age 16 I was arrested twice for protesting Vietnam. Three years later Iwas banned from the Calif university system for antiwar protests. What about u my friend?
April 30th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Where shall I start, why not at the beginning of the responses?
Lynn & Abbas,
I will answer both of you at the same time since you both have similar answers in mind. It would be easy to toss what I say if I were hijacking immigrants to make my own point – unfortunately I am not.
Both of you say the same thing – the immigrant (legal or not) wants the same thing, jobs – or as Abbas said “material betterment.” There is no argument there, we know what the goal is for most if not all immigrants. Where the fly hits the ointment is in the nature of the corporation.
These corporations are not there for the betterment of the people – they are there for the bottom line, and that bottom line expressly is for the benefit of the few. If this was not the case there would be no exodus of corporations from the US, would there? Of course not, everyone would be enjoying a life long position and the fruits of their labor – but this is not happening is it?
The United States had the chance in the formation of it’s corporate structure(s) to make sure that mankind was not run over pell mell. However, they did not choose to define the personhood of the corporation as a responsible citizen, did they? They gave it all the privileges but none of the responsibilities! In fact they are more than mere ficticious persons, they are super-persons. Corporations are merely the housing mechanism of the elite few, period.
Therefore, when they leave the shores of the United States it is for the sole purpose of getting what they can at any cost to humanity. This is their same purpose on terra firma as well, to do what they chose with impunity.
What this shows you is the people who are at the head of these corporate monstrocities. That brings us to the condition of this country, the warp and woof of what we are supposed to be as a people. Corporations can merely be seen as the extension of who and how they are run, the “who” is always connected to the “how.”
This country has always made it’s bones on the backs of oppressed people, since it’s inception. It is merely the child of it’s older European counterpart from which it sprang. Certain people have always been debased so they could be exploited. If you do not think this is a deep and endemic problem just look at the original state charters into the Union – you will find each one started with a specific phrase in regard to citizenship “white dejure state Citizen.” From this foundation flows application of the law, to whom and for what purpose.
Than you have those pontificating about law in posts, as if there is really some type of rule of neutral law. I am sorry to break the news to you, there is no neutral rule of law – in fact, there never was! When men would no longer believe in the divine right of kings, sly elite individuals came up with the rule of law – to give them something to hide behind, so we would not think that the application of the law was the prejudicial whim of mere men. The same laws can be used equally in the opposite direction depending on who they are being applied to – any law school worth it’s salt will teach you this.
Now, let me apply this to the point of immigration, and you do not have to go far to find an example. You have said that all the immigrant wants is a job, and a little house with an RV in the driveway. How nice of you to reduce the problem, but you have read what is suggested by many in this room – shall I recount it for you? “Send them back and arm them to fight their tyrants – don’t hire them – they are illegal and breaking the law – they are crooks and frauds – they are taking jobs – they have no rights – some do not pay taxes – they are stressing our human services – sanctions against Mexico – do not reward illegal behavior” etc., etc. It does not look like a good number, at least who post here want them to have anything, does it? A good portion do nothing but repeat, with specific application these laws, all combined it could be seen as a collective frothing of the mouth – but no one puts the blame where it belongs, not for inforcing the immigration laws, but for the ailing condition of our country – they would rather senselessly scream at illegal immigrants!
So maybe the lot of you think it is oh so simple – they just want a job, or, axe the illegal immigrant, but it is not. It is a deep endemic problem, it goes back to the fundation of this nation, and it is expressed in what we allow our corporations to do at home and abroad, and it runs deeply through how we operate as a country.
So those on the right continue to bash the immigrant, and those on the left continue to think that it is a small legal adjustment that is needed – and you are guaranteed to have the same problems and they will get worse, while those that control you laugh all the way to the bank.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
I’ve listened to Virgil repeat the same argument over and over again. To sum up them up, he hates the military industrial complex that he thinks is masterminding our collective fate. Well, Virgil, you may be surprised that that most of us are disgusted with the fact that our politicians do not serve the will of the people. Among those issues that ultra-rightests (I humor you) differ with you ultra-left wingers is the patronizing attitude that you have towards the economically disadvantaged. We u-rs reject the idea that the U.S. is responsible for the fate of the world. We prefer to deal with the world based on manageable boundaried states, not as one mass of humanity. The latter approach is far too impractical to persue. You look at Mexicans as pathetic economic refugees, while we look at them as citizens of Mexico who are in need economic help. We u-rs endorse assisting Mexicans in their homeland. You would force our country to adopt them despite the patent unfairness to potiential legal immigrants, and negative social, legal and economic consequences to our nation. We u-rs reject such notions and will do our best to fight you through the political system that you disparage ad nauseam.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Wow, this thread took off–I missed out, unfortunately. I only have time to make a quick meta-discursive comment: DMAC, George, and Lynn, it’s great having some fresh voices on this blog offering some very insightful perspectives on the immigration debate. It’s encouraging to me that the near-meaningless right/left categorization goes out the window when immigration gets discussed. Keep coming around!
April 30th, 2006 at 5:36 pm
Well George, good for you – when you go down with a bullet in your back from this political system, I for one will mourn. In the mean time you can gag being force fed this form of globalism that you reject, from those who are at the helm of this marvelous political system. You float your ideas of helping the citizens of Mexico in their home land, and we will wait to see what progress you make.
Yes, I will opt for full citizenship for the immigrant, in the hopes that it will be like hand writing on the wall to the powers that be – that if immigrants get what they need and deserve (in light of what they have been exposed to by the big G8) they will know that the game is over. The same goes for countries like France (as an example) that tore the hell out of their colonies (or for neo-colonials for that matter) sacking them for trillions of dollars – that these victims will also get the opportunities of full citizenship. I hope it starts a chain reaction globally.
Radical ideas I know, but it is a sad day when there is such a vehement battle against what is just, right, and true.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:43 pm
Rich,
Marc thought that the whole episode was rather boring. Frankly, I’m glad that it’s over. I was really getting tired of Virgil’s deprecations of everything this country stands for. I don’t know how he can wake up every morning and accept the fact that he’s actually a U.S. citizen. It must be very painful to him. I actually pity him.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
The depth of self-delusion knows no bounds, and the denial of history knows no shame. George, has anyone tried to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge yet – you have not made a down payment on it yet have you? lol…just kidding George.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:54 pm
Virgil, how will you go about your campaign for amnesty for our boorish guests? March? Marching only serves to antagonize the voters and the Congress. Lobby your representatives? That would only make you a supplicant to the system you so depise.
April 30th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
Correction to last word in last sentence: Despise.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:07 pm
You can get the flavor in how I will be involved by going to:
http://la.indymedia.org
There will be a coordination of over a hundred events in LA.
My suggestion is that you google May day demonstrations to understand the scope of what is not only happening here – but throughout the world.
April 30th, 2006 at 6:23 pm
Marc Cooper,
It looks to me that there are a number of ideas / suggestions here that you don’t like simply because they contradict your point of view.
Many on the “left” oppose the sort of amnesty policy that is being offered up – they just haven’t posted here.
As far as your original piece in the LA Times is concerned, take solace in how such a kumbaya, take me back to the real days of the ’60′s piece inspires any coherent response.
Your original premise is correct though, what is presently planned for May 1 is a bad idea. Given the gas price in LA, a lot of people might decide they can do without the gardeners and the maids.
I’ll start cleaning my own toilet, thank you.
April 30th, 2006 at 7:51 pm
Marc Cooper, that doesn’t answer the question I asked you. My question is if you were old enough at the time, wouldn’t you have been in the camp that attacked Martin Luther King for the same reasons you’re now criticising the immigrant rights boycott tomorrow? Your criticisms against the immigrant rights boycott supporters sound very similar to those employed against King’s call for civil rights activists to go another step and make Vietnam their issue as well.
Sure you have an activist background, so do many of us. How is that relevant to the question that was sincerely posed to you though?
April 30th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Another thought for those who freak out about ‘illegal’ immigrants [and thankfully Cooper is not one of those types]. What’s the big deal with the ‘illegal’ business anyway? How many European immigrants coulda arrived on America’s shores without all kinds of constiutionally illegal laws that disallowed Chinese immigration or that prohibited Blacks from migrating north or finding jobs in industry? Could past ‘legal’ immigrants have done so in a country that allowed migration from China and the south? Think about it.
April 30th, 2006 at 7:56 pm
Your a petulant child Aaron. Or at least you sound like one. I was old enough at the time and I just finished telling you what my views were then — and now. I suspect you were’nt born yet. Oh well.
April 30th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
Ok, good, you were old enough at the time and you supported King’s controversial decision to publicly call for acts of civil disobedience in support of the antiwar movement. Well, the people who attacked him at the time made the same kinds of arguments you make against the immigrants rights boycott slated for tomorrow, no? It’s not ‘practical’. Americans won’t support it. It’ll cause retribution against the movement, etc. All arguments used against King by liberals of his day, right?
And I don’t see anything ‘childish’ in the line of argument I’m using, does anyone else?
April 30th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
Anyone who compares this circus act to what King was doing is really naive.
April 30th, 2006 at 8:48 pm
DMAC–you’re right, and we have posted here. That’s why, despite the occasional ad homina that pop up (they do with any important issue–we’re human, after all), I find this issue and debate particularly encouraging, because in a very important sense it obliterates right/left boundaries and forces us to actually think through the pitfalls and possible solutions, rather than parrot back party lines. And that is indeed a good thing.
April 30th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
Blanket amnesty is something I’m opposed to as well, if I wasn’t clear about that before.
April 30th, 2006 at 9:30 pm
Marc Cooper: “I have not had time to edit out the really offensive posts.Some of this come from a link from the L.A. Times — not a rightwing blog.”
The guy who posted the “shitskins” comment; did he come here from the Times or from a blog?
April 30th, 2006 at 10:05 pm
From the Times.
April 30th, 2006 at 10:45 pm
Marc Cooper, you said above you answered my question, but it’s actually obvious if you read your purported answer that you never answered my question. What was it you were saying about childish? Why not just answer the question, aren’t the criticisms you make of the activists who participate in tomorrow’s action similar to those made of King for making a call for the civil rights movement to take up the Vietnam War issue? Perhaps you could tell us the differences between those critics of King and the Marc Cooper of today criticising the decision to go ahead with a boycott action for one day?
It seems like a reasonable question to raise given the nature of your criticisms, no?
April 30th, 2006 at 10:48 pm
“Marching only serves to antagonize the voters and the Congress.”
Really? I don’t notice that, even if the media are insistent on parroting that Party line that what you believe is true. I think it’ll be a pretty successful action in terms of its scope and intended effect. In the past the same arguments were raised to tell immigrants they shouldn’t even march, much less boycott. They also proved to be weak arguments in the end after some several million marched in a few weeks time only less than a month ago.
May 1st, 2006 at 12:13 am
[...] Marchas, Si! Boycotts, No! [...]
May 1st, 2006 at 6:30 am
John Gavin, a former US ambassador to Mexico (during the Reagan admin., I believe) said at the time that the CIA perceived Mexico as the greatest long term threat to the US.
I don’t know what this assessment was based on, but it probably had elements of drug trafficking and the high level of cooperation in that endeavor from Mexican officialdom. Aditionally, there was and is the threat of Cuban socialism taking the reins of power in Mexico.
The Reagan era amnesty came after the last major earthquake there and was probably designed, in large part, as a safety valve for the Mexican government.
Present levels of illegal immigrants from Mexico really accelerated during the Clinton admin., but the same would have happened under one of the Bush’s.
The present Bush is sometimes accused of pandering to the chamber of commerce and other commercial friends but my personal belief is he has a much more internationalist view of the situation driven by large banks.
Given the convulsive political history of Mexico, its presntly treated like a child, in political terms. Its appetite for corruption is largely left unchecked and the US takes in large groups that might form revolutionary pitch fork brigades if they were forced to stay.
Given Mexico’s natural resources and agricultural assets, its absurd to say the immigrants are here “just to feed their families”. These people are not fleeing Darfur or Chad, they are fleeing a net agricultural exporter.
While unlikely that a Mexican flag will fly atop southwestern state capitals during the lifetime of any blogger on this board, its quite likely that one will fly alongside the US flag.
While sovereignty may not be completely yielded, the present unchecked demographic, in California at least, will create a state with large areas indistinguishable from Mexico. I’m not talking about appearance, I’m talking about the consequences of a huge Mexican population of high school drop outs, living alongside an affluent minority.
If we weren’t having an immigration debate and were solely focused on restriction, it would take at least 3 generations to alter the present paradigm of education and achievement in the Mexican community.
For those who think this racist and like to cite 2nd generations of European immigrants, one only has to look at the assimilation of early European and other immigrants. Their bridges to the old country were figuratively burned by a 3,000 mile wide ocean.
In the present situation, Mexico wants to eliminate borders and ultimately, sovereingty itself.
The national anthem in Spanish isn’t a brazen affront, its just an expression of attitude and intent.
May 1st, 2006 at 8:05 am
Seen this morning, hanging from from an overpass on the eatbound lanes of the 118 in Granada Hills;
“if they weren’t clogging our freeways, we’d have time to clean our own toilets”
May 1st, 2006 at 8:33 am
It’s a shame that these corporations do what they do south of the boarder, and whereas if it were an individual doing this bullshit we would want them prosecuted – if they did it here they would be prosecuted. But what really gets me is that I am the “radical” because I oppose this – this is just not right, and anyone who plays this game saying I am radical for my views has got problems, not me.
May 1st, 2006 at 9:25 am
Virgil Johnson,
If there were more US corporations in Mexico, such as the Ford plant in Hermosillo, as an example, nobody would leave Mexico.
For the average Mexican worker living in Mexico, a job with a US company is coveted because of the superior wages.
US companies in search of really cheap labor are in China. Mexico, by the way, has a very large trade deficit with China because they can’t sell them very much.
Mexico both needs and despises US patrimony. Like an unthankful child, its time for tough love.
May 1st, 2006 at 9:31 am
I thought by now you would know you are not communicating with a dumb gringo (although part of the description fits me). I know who gets those jobs – fucking aristocracy, I have been all over south of the boarder to the tip – you do not need to tell me these stories.
May 1st, 2006 at 11:12 am
Its all quiet in my neighborhood. My place of business requires I transit LA and today would be difficult.
One of my employees has not shown up for work, because he was in an accident and has broken a limb.
I took the opportunity to walk around the area where I live and there was not one gardener at work. The serenity of not having hundreds of grossly polluting little trucks running around with the din of equally noxious leaf blowers etc., is terrific.
Back to Mr. Cooper’s premise, this “day off” may be over playing a hand.
May 1st, 2006 at 3:17 pm
“but illegal immigration is an absolute detriment to liberal, pro-working class politics over the long run (â€liberal†as opposed to “left-wing fabulistâ€)”
This false statement by Reg is one reason immigration is not just a Rep problem. If you think of a group of workers making $10/hr, and another group of workers making $5/hr, one can say they are both working class; with those who have NO JOBS, but are willing to work, as also working class.
Let’s say there are two possible situations:
(1) 100 jobs at $10/hr plus 50 jobs at $5/hr plus 50 people without jobs. ($1250/hr).
(2) 90 jobs at $10/hr plus 80 jobs at $5/hr plus 30 people jobless ($$1300/hr).
Which of these two is better for the working class?
I think Marc would say (2), and I say (2), but Reg would prolly say (1) — which is a disagreement in value.
Not a right and wrong issue. A tradeoff issue.
If the $10 jobs are for whites, and the $5 jobs are for blacks, it’s clear that supporting (1) instead of (2) is racist. It should also be racist if it’s US citizen vs non-citizen.
Wait, Leftists hate math. I forgot; too bad real decisions about money usually require math.
By the way, after the HUGE SUCCESS of Bush’s great TAX CUTS, there has been what, 17 quarters of successive growth in the USA? What’s the unemployment rate, UNDER 5%?
Wait, Leftists hate math, especially if it demonstrates how great Bush has been for the US consumer and home buyer and people willing to work for a year or more in the same job.
Finally, the progressive left needs to focus more on JOBS — and instead of protesting what they don’t like, they should be organizing to create companies & co-ops & partnerships to produce stuff to sell, and hire more workers. Offer more poor folk jobs.
Funny how often workers who decide to work for themselves, to “own the means of their own production”, usually are NOT socialists — in fact, they’re most often anti-tax Reps, and do more good in offering jobs than all the silly aid programs.
May 1st, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Yeah Bush is a real math wizard that’s why his budgets are so far into the red zone.
May 1st, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Tom, at least you’re consistent: another consistently nonsensical post. I’ll save everyone else some time from having their eyes glaze over in attempting a response to you by offering this little nugget: no jobs at $5.00 are valuable to anyone over the age of 16. Not when they need to live in the United States of America.
May 2nd, 2006 at 12:07 pm
Given the nature of the remittances Mexican workers send back to Mexico, they are virtual indentured servants of Mexico.
If they kept the money and made an effort to improve their own material life, their lives would have the sort of infrastructure to better suit families here.
By coming here and living 20-25 in a house designed for 5, they seduce American consumers with very cheap services. If they ever get “regularized” and they all qualify for the minimum wage, here will no longer be the demand for services that presently employ several million.
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