McCain, Georgia, Wikipedia and a Bi-Partisan Hard On
Wow, the Russian offensive into Georgia has revived all that pent-up mental muscle memory among idle and nostalgic cold warriors. They needn't bother any longer trying to correctly pronounce, or spell Al Qaeda, al-Qida, Al Qaida,
We're back to bi-partisan, throaty denunciations of "Russian aggression." Damn, that phrase is as comfy as one of Ronnie Reagan's old loafers!
From the neo-cons to John McCain to right-wing Democrats like Richard Holbrooke, we've got a lot of sabre-rattlin' going on. Like Putin is really concerned. I'm sure he's expecting the disembarkment of the 82nd Airborne any minute now on the outskirts of Moscow.
Let's get real, folks. What we're watching --in gory technicolor-- are what policy wonks call the "limits of American power." Contrary to popular myth and fantasy, we do not single-handedly rule the world. There are other bullies out there on the playground and some of them are so big that you have to, um, learn to co-exist with them. It isn't always pretty, but it's nevertheless true.
That means you have to think twice (even once would be nice) about the possible consequences of messin' in the other guy's bizness. For some years now, a host of foreign policy experts have been sternly warning that it was only a matter of time before an emboldened Mother Russia would push back against the continuous expansion of NATO and its influence. And that time is now.
This is not the exclusive work of George W. Bush. Not by a long shot. Though it would be somewhat more reassuring to have a slightly saner set of clowns at the foreign policy helm than the current crew. But many Democrats are as clueless as the Republicans when it comes to a realistic reckoning with, yes, the limits of American power. The big push to grow NATO came with Clinton, not Cheney.
That said, John McCain has reacted to the Georgian crisis like a horny old mummy given a mega-dose of Viagra. The New York Times has a tidy little run-down on McCain's rather sulphuric view of the Russkies. And talk about something less than re-assuring. Listen to what McCain is saying and then ask yourself if this is the kind of policy we really want: that on top of eveyrthing else going on the world we should now isolate, and back Russia into a corner?
But not to worry that much. It seems that McCain isn't really interested enough in a new cold or hot war with Russia to really bone up on the subject. It looks very much like like his big, blowhard policy statement on Georgia was more or less plagiarized from... the Wikipedia! By the way, anybody who pulls such a similar stunt in one of my USC classes doesn't get elected to anything. He gets expelled.
Meanwhile, there's this rather blood-curdling ground-level report coming out of the war zone. It sounds pretty much like a catastrophe.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
I called it plagerism in the previous thread… but maybe not
August 11th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Meanwhile, in neoconland, they’re frothing at the Russophobic mouth.
“Let me have men about me that are fat,
Sleek-headed men, and such as sleep a-nights. /
Yon Cassius has a lean and hungry look.
He thinks too much. Such men are dangerous.”
August 12th, 2008 at 5:34 am
This episode is the beginning of the end for the neocons:
http://michael-balter.blogspot.com/2008/08/lets-put-boot-to-those-russians.html
August 12th, 2008 at 6:51 am
Russia is taking advantage of election year politics in the U.S. and anticipating an Obama win, which would insure another Democratic light-weight in the White House. We may see something like Khrushchev vs. Kennedy again, escept Obama would never threaten force to stop the Russians in Cuba or anywhere.
- - -
Courtesy of our commie-lovin’ press:
August 12th, 2008 at 7:26 am
On plagiarism, maybe you’re forgetting the Obama quotes stolen from others–”just words.” If McCain gets expelled, then Obama never should be admitted.
Now, Wikipedia is not original source information itself but constitutes contributions, or you may call it plagiarism, from many.
- - -
Now, for a little more on this transgression.
Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.
1963 - John F. Kennedy
1925 - Kahlil Gibran ( in an article for The New Frontier)
1916 - Warren G. Harding
1904 - Lee Baron Russel Briggs
1884 - Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
1st century BC - Cicero
Of course, you can always find some crazed lefty who will “disprove” this with some interpretation that is completely false–from Wikipedia, no doubt.
August 12th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Lesser people borrow, greater people steal. It is as old as discourse itself.
One of my favorite Neil Young tunes is “Borrowed Tune” from “Tonight’s the Night” (surely the best rock album of the last half century)…
On Georgia..I am privileged to perhaps soon be studying with Gorbachev’s foreign policy advisor.
August 12th, 2008 at 8:02 am
Max Boot and Bill Kristol in “Trotsky’s Revenge” coming soon to a theatre near you. Leon spins in hsi grave, “Narodniks and Kerenskyites” he thinks about Bilky K. Soon Christopher Hitchens will invoke “Muscovite Fascism” and the Asiatic Mode of Production.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:33 am
“(E)xpanding NATO would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold war era. Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations, and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking.”
Such were the views of the late George Kennan. Fortunately John McCain, fresh from consultations with a guy who has been on the Congressional lobbying payroll of one of the parties involved in this war, knows better…
To paraphrase an old cliche, McCain’s airheaded proclamations on the Georgia war are worse than a mistake, they’re bluster.
I didn’t know until reading that McCain statement that Georgia was “one of the first countries in the world to adopt Christianity as its official religion” - that sort of changes my thoughts on this. We definitely should send in the 82nd Airborne for, you know, uh, Jesus…
August 12th, 2008 at 10:00 am
One of my favorite Neil Young tunes is …. Come to think of it, I don’t like Neil Young.
- - -
reg, tell me what Obama thinks about the Georgia situation, including the position that he plagiarized from John McCain, during one of Obama’s flip-flops.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Ooh, Woody has got us there. The Georgia crisis has not been one of Obama’s finer moments.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Nobody in their right mind plagiarizes from John McCain. John McCain thinks motorcycle engines are the “Sound of Freedom.” He calls his wife a “cunt” in front of co-workers. He thinks we should induct Georgia (the other one) into NATO. He’s trying to sell offshore oil drilling as a solution to energy independence. He “approves messages” that incorporate Britney Spears into his campaign discourse. Some combination of moron and mendacious opportunist, desperate to enhance his resume.
Now go back to scanning your wingnut websites for annoying shit that makes you look like a moron when you drag it over here.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:15 am
“Come to think of it, I don’t like Neil Young.”
No surprise: you have zero taste. I’m not sure if that’s because you’re an accountant, or if it’s a deeper personality defect. My cousin is an accountant, and has excellent taste in music. So I guess I have my answer.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Michael - I think you’re allowing superficial rhetoric to cloud significant differences in what they’re saying. McCain is pushing for some very stupid concrete actions…not just blowing hard. Unfortunately, the fact that the concrete actions are untenable and won’t fly with our allies makes him even more of a ridiculous blowhard than if he simply amplified the adjectives in his rhetorical stance.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:20 am
“I don’t like Neil Young.”
Fair enough Woody. Neil Young wouldn’t like you.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Reg, Obama made sure that the main message he got out was a condemnation of Russia, and mentioned diplomacy pretty much in passing. He missed a huge opportunity to blast Bush and McCain for encouraging Georgia to provoke the Russians by arming it and advocating that it join NATO, if not actually giving the nod for its South Ossetia blunder, and at the same time to tell Americans what they need to hear about not being the only superpower anymore. Not to mention to tell Americans the truth about how little power they have to do anything about Russia other than through negotiations. In other words, Obama made covering his ass his first order of business, and talking wisdom second. That’s not why I voted for him in the California primary.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:47 am
reg: (McCain’s) trying to sell offshore oil drilling as a solution to energy independence. …Now go back to scanning your wingnut websites for annoying s**t that makes you look like a moron when you drag it over here.
Okay, McCain wants offshore oil drilling as part of an effort to make us more energy independent. Oh, wait…. You already brought that up and thought it was stupid. I think we see who is the real moron.
- - -
reg: Neil Young wouldn’t like you.
Oh, I know. He showed his ignorance and was informed as to how much we care.
Big wheels keep on turning
Carry me home to see my kin
Singing songs about the Southland
I miss Alabamy once again
And I think its a sin, yes
Well I heard mister Young sing about her
Well, I heard ole Neil put her down
Well, I hope Neil Young will remember
A Southern man don’t need him around anyhow
- - -
Well, that was about Alabama. This is about Georgia.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:50 am
This is the Neil Young link that I meant to provide.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Ed Schultz has been saying for months that McCain is a warmonger and these statemenys - lufted or not - just reinforce that. When Wes Clark was excoriated for pointing out the obvious - getting shot down and becomming a POW doesn’t make one an expert on national security - the trolls (and the media) erupted in fury. But is this what we want in the WH?
Sorry guys, unless you want to bring backthe draft and put the country on a war footing this is a done deal and an example of the kind of Cloud-Coo -Coo land thinking that has guided our fireign affairs for far too long.
The Chinese must be laughing their ass off!
August 12th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Marc writes: “There are other bullies out there on the playground and some of them are so big that you have to, um, learn to co-exist with them. It isn’t always pretty, but it’s nevertheless true.
That means you have to think twice (even once would be nice) about the possible consequences of messin’ in the other guy’s bizness…”
Okay.
It’s the ‘co-exist’ and ‘messin in the other guy’s bizness’ that doesn’t sit so well with me. Beyond all the diplomatic protocols commending the attacks, what’s possible? Sending Georgia troops, equipment, or even booting Russia from the G8 are not really options at this point. In fact even talking about booting Russia from the G8 doesn’t make sense unless the other members were firmly on board with it first. And at this point they are not. But what about the dollar? A devalued US currency has contributed mightily to the surge in oil prices? A stronger dollar might further aggravate our already sour economy in the short term, but isn’t this one practical lever we have at this moment?
August 12th, 2008 at 11:08 am
I don’t know why we’re discussing Georgia and Edwards when, according to so many of your past comments, “everything has to do with Iraq.” Could it be that the Iraq War Is Over But Media Aren’t Telling Us? Well, let’s elect Obama and pull out in disgrace before people realize it.
August 12th, 2008 at 11:10 am
And in re Obama and the conflict in Georgia (and McCain for that matter), precisely because US ‘options’ are so limited, the most ‘presidential thing’ either of them could do, imho, is say as little as possible. I know that seems counterintuitive in the age of 24/7 news. However, while ‘events in are in saddle’ it might be the wisest thing to see if Putin will indeed put the brakes on things.
August 12th, 2008 at 11:20 am
What I am about to write is an explanation based on historical fact and not a justification for any parties’ behavior.
I think it’s safe to say that the US is not the only superpower in the world. Russia and China certainly belong in that category, if for no other reason than for their global influence and size of their militaries.
Every superpower wants to maintain a sphere of influence: the US primarily in the Americas and Western Europe, Russia in the Eastern bloc and CIS and China in Asia, although China’s sphere of inlfuence is growing (e.g. Latin America, albeit mainly commercially).
When a superpower sees its sphere of influence threatened, one should not be surprised to see it react. The US has done just that in countries like the Dominican Republic, Grenada, Cuba, Nicaragua, Colombia, Chile, El Salvador, Panama, etc. China has done this as well, wieldng its influence in Myanmar, Vietnam, North Korea (piss China off and the pipeline has problems for a few days).
Russia?USSR has done the same: Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968, Poland 1982, Afghanistan 1979.
Again, I am not seeking to justify any superpower’s actions, merely to explain. If Saakashvili thought he could do what he did without consequences, then he shows an appalling ignorance of history.
August 12th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Last one… Look who else is getting suckered in by McCain’s “crazy idea” towards energy independence using offshore drilling: Pelosi indicates openness to offshore drilling vote But, we’ll see if it’s all talk and no action–sort of like Obama.
- - -
Rob, I don’t know that we have limited options on Georgia, and I would like to hear the candidates discuss their thoughts on it. For instance, if Obama said in a debate that there was no Russian domination of eastern Europe and that the people of
PolandGeorgia did not consider themselves to be dominated by them, then that might be meaningful. Of course, what are the chances of that ever happening?August 12th, 2008 at 11:33 am
It’s rare that I agree with John Derbyshire from the National Review, but he sketches the outlines of this Georgia situation quite clearly:
“There are some spectacles that are at once tragic and farcical. One such has been the sight of Georgian troops scuttling back from assisting us in whatever it is we imagine we are doing in Iraq, to help defend their homeland, while Condoleezza Rice stamps her foot, George W. Bush watches a basketball game, and John McCain says that he will do such things, what they are, yet he knows not, but they shall be the terrors of the earth.
“We are governed by fools. At least Putin knows what he wants, and how to get it. If only freedom had such leaders!”
August 12th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Woody - you don’t have even a third grade understanding of either the pragmatics or the politics of the off-shore drilling issue, such as its been ginned up. Better to shut your mouth when you’re just looking stupid.
August 12th, 2008 at 11:42 am
Randy Paul, I think you’re on the right track.
I’ve been trying to think about this situation in historical terms for the past several days. I think some long forgotten ancestral survival switch in my DNA has been flipped that always makes me suspicious when the hordes start moving off the steppes. Been scrambling for maps, too. The nations and regions next to Russia have always been buffers in the service of those hordes. This goes back for hundreds of years. Self-determination and justice for these buffer states have always been fleeting.
A Polish crest is a sword & trowel: fight for your principals, get ready to rebuild.
August 12th, 2008 at 11:43 am
“And the morning sun has yet to climb my hood ornament”.
One the best lines from the album JC mentioned.
August 12th, 2008 at 11:46 am
reg, if I’m going to be called stupid, it should be from someone who is smarter than I am.
August 12th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Okay, one more and then I’m gone.
Uncle Jay has a good video this week, which includes the Olympics and resolving conflicts of the past.
August 12th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Didn’t Marc threaten to shut down the comments due to name calling just yesterday? Maybe it was the day before…I forget.
August 12th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
“reg, if I’m going to be called stupid, it should be from someone who is smarter than I am.”
Low bar…
August 12th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
…which say less about you.
August 12th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Neil has gone through some reactionary periods - see the LP Hawks and Doves.
And the Skynyrd thing was a joke between them, a sort of fraccas manufactured by Al Kooper, who discovered Skynyrd. Neil Young’s songs Sedan Delivery and Bite the Bullet were writte nfor Skynyrd before the plane crash, and then were recorded by the Horse.
August 12th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Back to Georgia.
I have no doubt this was manufactured by Randy Scheunman.
August 12th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
OK, let’s at least add some wit to the bile. Woody, your last might have been, “must be doing the limbo.” But that sort of insults yourself too, oh well.
Shit, I have work to do, what I am doing here anyway?
August 12th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Stupid shit…
John McCain: “I know I speak for every American when I say to (Pres. Saakashvili) today, we are all Georgians.”
August 12th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Amazing. McCain is channeling the French and thinks this is 9/11.
August 12th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
I have a little request for Marc or any of the reader/commenters trying to seriously understand the situation in Georgia:
How has this intervention been reported in Russia? (Have to admit my internet research skills are a bit ‘bumbly’) Thought here is the way Putin & the Kremlin are explaining things to the Russian people might actually shed some light on things, you know…
Any thoughts here, folks?
August 12th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Rob - I was planning to check into that when I get a chance…I am assuming it is about as robust a discussion as Iraq after Phil Donahue was fired.
August 12th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
When is the media gonna pick up on the relationship between Sheunman and Saakshivili? This is like what Nixon did to Humphrey in 68!
August 12th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Read for youself - http://english.pravda.ru/topic/georgia_ossetia-603/
August 12th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
“Stupid shit…John McCain”
That’s it. I’m telling Marc.
August 12th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
I have no idea why I linked to Pravda for you guys. I should have realized that’s where most of you get your news and views.
August 12th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Pravda exposes more on war. What a difference sixty-nine years makes.
Germany and Poland engulfed into nudist war
August 12th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
A billion dollars here, a billion dollars there, pretty soon you’re talking about … a highly affordable breakaway republic of your very own!
Oh, but look at the labels on the box: “Some assembly required.” “Fragile.” “This Side Up.” Well, let’s get this baby into the garage and … Oops–CRASH! Hm … those tinkling sounds when we shake the box now …. Not good, not good. Oh no, look at this small-print box label: “no exchanges, no returns”.
Well, I exaggerate. Or do I? Either way, it is an interesting angle of view on the South Ossetia question.
Back in 2006, our plucky Saakashvili (who now seems to have stepped on his dick in a big way) complained to Javier Solana that he suffered “tremendous worry” about the looming prospect of independence for Kosovo,
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?ID=16756
an idea that, for all its merits, had the problem for Georgia of strengthening the case for South Ossetian (and Abkhazian) self-determination. And I guess it did, in Russian eyes at least. One could hardly blame them for thinking so.
I wonder if I can sell this breakaway republic on eBay? Is it lying to just describe it as “late model, box unopened”? If the buyer complains, I can always say it must have been damaged in transit ….
August 12th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Hey Reg, Jim, Woody, Randy and everyone else, I bet you’re thirsty from reading and posting all day. Have some soda.
August 12th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Michael - Oh yes, that South Ossetian and Abkhazian self-determination. Long as they carry a Russian passport, right? Kosovo: A righteous independence the Russians opposed to levy an opportunist ‘independence’ that will be anything but. True, though, that Saakashvii swallowed the provocation bait. In time, it might become clear that he was right that war with Russia was inevitable.
I think that incredibly small print also applies to linking up to vesti 24 (Russian TV). Must have gridlocked half of the darn internet downloading the damn plug ins….still can’t get it to work…
August 12th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
MB - just say this and it’s very dumb, no matter who says it.
Obama:”I have consistently called for deepening relations between Georgia and transatlantic institutions, including a Membership Action Plan for NATO, and we must continue to press for that deeper relationship.”
One wonders, does he believe this crap ? I have to agree, this is a clinker.
August 12th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
oops - “just SAW this”
August 12th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
But will you exert any pressur on Obama, reg? You can talk a good game, but you’ll probably support him when he’s president when he sends ground troops through the Turkmen frontier
August 13th, 2008 at 5:50 am
Obamabots don’t exert pressure on their candidate. That’s why the largest on-line issue group on his website was brought together to confront him on FISA.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:51 am
Apparently this NATO thing is a relatively long-term position of Obama’s - probably a Brezinzski hobby horse.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:56 am
“Oh yes, that South Ossetian and Abkhazian self-determination. Long as they carry a Russian passport, right?”
I chose the word “self-determination” after pondering “independence”, then deciding it was pretty obviously wrong in this case. I think I made the right choice. Californians choice self-determination, fighting the Spanish empire. A week or two later, they joined the Union, as they had … well, determined, for themselves. (Not drawing any other political parallels, mind you.)
The news on all this is fun. Allegations flying, not much you can pin down. Supposedly, there’s a column of 10 — no make that 60 — no make that 100 — Russian military vehicles rolling from Gori to Tbilisi as we speak, as the Rape of Gori goes down in history. Or perhaps not.
“Saakashvili, flanked by the leaders of Lithuania, Poland, Estonia and Latvia in a separate media briefing, said Russian tanks were attacking and “rampaging” through the Georgian town of Gori despite the cease-fire.”
Rampaging, I tell you! However ….
“… journalists in Gori, the birthplace of former Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, said they had seen no Russian tanks. Residents there told the journalists they had earlier seen “some” Russian tanks, but not in large numbers.”
Saakashvili is now sorta blaming the Western powers (which would included the Bush administration) for not “analyzing” Russian “intentions” correctly in the wake of Georgia’s invasion of South Ossetia. Wait a minute, lemme get this straight: you pull a surprise attack on the capital of South Ossetia, but then when you’re routed by the Russians, you blame the West for not figuring out that it should have responded instantly to Russia’s response, and that’s why you’re losing? This guy’s delusional. And a danger to his own people, clearly.
August 13th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Breszinksi may be a dove on the Middle East, relatively speaking, but he’s ultra-hawkish, even chauvinistic in his Polish nationalism, hence suspicion of Germany (the EU) and Russia, and his willingness and indeed justification for “stirring up Muslims” - ie creating Al Qaida to provoke Russia into attacking Afghanistan.
August 13th, 2008 at 7:07 am
Did that online pressure group threaten to withhold their vote? This goes all the way from reg to Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky, liberals and even Marxists who won’t be tough on their candidate.
August 13th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Cummings Intellectual Argument Dictionary: hawkish, charvinistic, natiionaliistic, reactionary, authoratarian, xenophoic, homophobic, xxxxphobic(phobic of the day). racist, sexist, xxxist(ist of the day), excetera…excetera…..excetra.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:34 am
Yeah, Jim, not to mention Cummings Crummy Chronology: when Russia invaded Afghanistan, Al Qaeda was hardly more than a twinkle in bin Laden’s eye. I knew what he meant, of course, but this sort of sloppiness doesn’t get you any traction with reasonable people.
Speaking of reasonableness: I’ve decided I’m not gonna blame Dubya for the South Ossetia Crisis, except perhaps insofar as one can find major leaders all over the world indirectly culpable for just letting the situation fester for too long. Could Bush have behind a Georgian move as stupid as this was? No. He can’t be THAT dumb. I mean, just LOOK at how stupid it was:
—
7 Aug 2008
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7551576.stm
Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict.
Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali.
—
Words fail.
From the more reliable reports I can find, what the Russians are mainly doing now with their supposedly egregious violations of sacred Georgian national sovereignty is neutralizing any Georgian military presence out to maybe 10-15 miles from the previous borders of South Ossetia (and working similarly from Abkhazia, and starting coastal patrols to boot). Sounds pretty smart to me. You can’t trust them to do it well, or in a kindly manner, exactly, but … when you look at how bumbling and deceptive their opponent has been, can you imagine that the Georgians are managing protection of civilians significantly better?
August 13th, 2008 at 9:06 am
“creating Al Qaida to provoke Russia into attacking Afghanistan.” Can we get a source please? Counterpunch does not count.
August 13th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Dan O,
It’s just hyperbole. Pay it no mind.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Robert Gates’ “From the Shadows.
Steve Coll “The Ghost Wars”
Breszinksi himself, interviewi n Le Mond Diplomatique, 1997.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Its not at all hyperbole. It is documented history, that Zbig is proud of.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Oh.
Robert Dreyfus “Devil’s Game”
Robert Baer (I forget which of his books)
ANY history of the Afghan war, including the many sympathetic to the US position. Carter signed a finding in early 79 to fund Afghan fundamentalists, well over 8 months before the Soviet invasion. Robert Gates’ memoir was the first to officially acknowledge this.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:17 am
And I would be remiss in not adding Dennis Perrin’s sensationl “Savage Mules” for a dissection of Carter and Zbig.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski about how
the US provoked the Soviet Union into invading
Afghanistan and starting the whole mess
Le Nouvel Observateur (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76*
Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his
memoirs [From the Shadows], that American intelligence services
began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan six months before the
Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national
security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a
role in this affair. Is that correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history,
CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say,
after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the
reality, closely guarded until now, is completely otherwise:
Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the
first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet
regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the
president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid
was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Question: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action.
But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and
looked to provoke it?
Brzezinski: It isn’t quite that. We didn’t push the Russians to
intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they
would.
Question: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting
that they intended to fight against secret involvement of the
United States in Afghanistan, people didn’t believe them.
However, there was a basis of truth. You don’t regret anything
today?
Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea.
It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and
you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially
crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter, in substance: We
now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war.
Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war
unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about
the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Question: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic
fundamentalists, having given arms and advice to future
terrorists?
Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The
Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up
Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the
cold war?**
Question: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated:
Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.
Brzezinski: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in
regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn’t a global Islam.
Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or
emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5
billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi
Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism,
Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more
than what unites the Christian countries.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:29 am
The Muslim Brotherhood, Sayyid al Qutb and Mohammed Qutb long preceded the Afghan invasion by Russia and were committing acts of terrorism back in 1948 when the Prime Minster of Egypt was assinated. This was the base of support for Al Qaeda.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Of course, Randy.
But they didn’t have the funding - though indeed, to a limited extent Britain funded them against Nasser.
My point is that Dan O doubted a well known piece of history that I mentioned, and you added to that by asserting it was hyperbole. I was merely trying to show that indeed it was not at all hyperbole.
August 13th, 2008 at 11:17 am
“Did that online pressure group threaten to withhold their vote?”
You’ve got me confused with Larry Johnson…
August 13th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Sorry to hear that Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky aren’t pure enough for you and have let you down.
August 13th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Of course it’s hyperbole. Bin Laden’s wealth also provided a great deal of funding.
Brezinski & co. didn’t create Al Qaeda.
August 13th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Zinn and Chomsky are heroes of mine, have been forever…and I was mistaken on Chomsky, he didn’t sign that idiotic letter circulated by the Nation - btu Zinn did. It is one thing to quietly support Obama, as do I, btu another to lend one’s considerable progressive acument to the notion that Obama will foster any real substantive change the way a Marxist like Zinn would like.
August 13th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
That letter was as irrelevant as most if its signers…
August 13th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Which is why many of its signers should have known better.