Moore-itis
Before I offer my own pedestrian thoughts on Michael Moore's new film, Sicko, I offer two disclaimers:
1) I direct to you to the just-published review of same by my ever-brilliant daughter.
2) And I readily admit that I am a fully-declared Michael Moore-phobe, having detested Bowling for Columbine and the execrable Fahrenheit 9-11 ( as well as his comic-like book DownsizeThis!).
That out of the way, I will pretty much agree with The Kid that, in spite, of Moore himself, I fairly enjoyed Sicko and will even give it a tenuous, trembling thumbs-up. Moore is fundamentally a clumsy propagandist but, frankly, even he can't unjustly smear our immoral health care system which excludes 20% of the population and puts the other 80% through Private Insurance Hell.
The weakest part of the flick were those sections that featured the now-weary and fully predictbale faux naive presence of the ambling auteur. But the underlying material was horrific and compelling enough to amuse and engage me -- and to piss me off (Having some recent intense dealings with the American health care hustle I am certainly ripe pickins').
And, yes, I found the section of the film in which he takes suffering 9-11 rescue workers for some free and lavish health care in Cuba to have been downright insulting -- and stupid. I've actually been in the Havana hospital where some of these folks were treated; I was there to visit friends who had to have family bring them clean bedsheets and basic medicines that were, in fact, reserved for so-called medical tourists. Those are the foreigners who are brought to Cuba in exchange for payment in hard currency and who are, indeed, given first-class health care -- just like in any private pay-as-you go U.S. clinic for that matter.
Also, politically, I don't know how smart (or better just how dumb) it is to suggest that the sort of single-payer universal care that Moore advocates might be comparable to medicine in Communist Cuba (by the way, by international standards Cuba ranks 39th in health care, two slots below the U.S.).
Moore also couldn't help weaving a laughable conspiracy theory that somehow blamed Richard Nixon for our current health care debacle. Likewise, he soft-peddled Hillary Clinton's monumental bungling of the issue last decade (thoughtno surprise -- this is a guy who once wrote how he had the hots for Hill).
Ok, those are the nitpicks, the venting of my declared bias against Moore.
But as I said above, I'm gritting my teeth and giving this flick a glaring green light. I thought the scenes shot in Canada and the U.K were by far the best. Some of the medical personnel (and patients) interviewed there authentically had trouble trying to understand the concept of why money would have anything whatsoever to do with providing or accessing care.
It really does make you ask what in the hell ails us?
June 29th, 2007 at 4:42 am
I live in Taiwan. It’s not (technically) a country, but it has universal health care even for Americans like me. The first business of government is to take care of the people – all the people. The US doesn’t do this and hasn’t for a long time. America is being left behind at a rate its citizens can’t imagine.
Best,
and good luck!
June 29th, 2007 at 5:08 am
It’s possible that James Scurlock’s excellent “Maxed Out” is a better version of a Moore; I’ve only read the book version and not seen the movie. If you want to see some dishonest deck stacking (that is, fake objectivity); see the still entertaining “An Unreasonable Man.”
The venom our host and others had for “Faherheit 9-11″ is still
a bit perplexing. Yes, Moore’s politics are still confused, there’s a lot of that going around. Ego? Hmm… once in awhile you notice a touch of that even in real serious, mainstream journalism, really! We’re still waiting for the specifics on those much touted factual inacuraces the sorry likes of Hitchens went to such great lengths to fail to point out….
Nope, I’m afraid that when Moore showed how, for instance, Bush knew the first plane hit the building and the President decided to go ahead with the photo op, he was making a fortune shaming his journalistic betters, who hadn’t really forced the point because they didn’t have the guts. That shame translated into the phobia mentioned here.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:39 am
Fifteen-thousand old people die of heat in France in 2003, and the government health care system drops them and quits responding to calls for help. Yeah, that’s what I want.
This is nothing but a Democratic grab for a major part of our economy. This system could be handled better with government tax allowances and other programs handled by the private sector and individuals rather than allowing government to take over the entire medical care industry.
Next thing you know, you will have to show “your papers” to get treated. God forbid if you’re behind in your taxes.
Don’t be suckered.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:44 am
“Fifteen-thousand old people die of heat in France in 2003, and the government health care system drops them and quits responding to calls for help.”
As usual, Woody has no idea what he is talking about. The deaths of those people were the result of both their relatives and the social welfare system failing them, not the health care system. They were not “dropped” by the health care system and the emergency services never quit responding to calls.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:57 am
btw in France if you go to any emergency room you get treated immediately whether or not you can pay or have proof of insurance. In the US?
June 29th, 2007 at 7:29 am
I’m having to do something for the wife, so here’s a quickly selected and random article about French hospitals from another European with her known, and unliked, system for comparison.
BTW, there were reports of amubulances not answering calls for heat stroke victims in France and hospitals not caring for them.
Name a hospital in the U.S. where you cannot get treatment FOR EMERGENCIES without proof of insurance.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:45 am
Woody is so illiterate on the issue of comparative health insurance systems, it’s just fucking sad really.
I’ve enjoyed Moore’s films although they’ve also pissed me off. I don’t like the guy’s schtick, but I also give him credit as an “infotainer”. I thought the bit in Fahrenheit about the oil pipeline conspiracy in Afghanistan was pulled out of his butt. That said, for all of his hijincks and hyperbole, Moore’s track record for honesty and integrity is far, far better than that of your run-of-the-mill politician who gets treated like a sage by Tim Russert or Chris Mathews when they make misstatements or self-serving evasions. And listening to NBC’s David Gregory telling Elizabeth Edwards that “if you just strip away the inflammatory rhetoric of Ann Coulter doesn’t she have a point” is the kind of coddling of right-wing maniacs by the press that one unfortunately has grown used to.
That said, its the terrain we live in and anyone who makes advocacy their business needs to deal with it. What pisses me off about Moore is that I actually believe some of his antics – like what appears to me or Marc as the stupidity of using Cuba as an example (which would be totally valid, incidentally, if one were examining health care in relatively poor countries) is a deliberate strategy on Moore’s part. The stuff that opens him up to attack as either simplistic, factually dodgy or over the top buys him tons of free publicity and controversy. His strategy is pure populism. He doesn’t care what the mainstream press says about him as long as they’re saying something.
In that sense he’s learned a useful lesson from the rightwing wackjobs like Coulter and Limbaugh that if you, literally, create a cartoonish character who becomes the relentless tribune for a point of view and generates controversy you’ve got a better chance of influencing debate in contemporary American culture than a saavy, measured, utterly decent and serious scribe like young Ezra Klein, typing away about health care for The American Prospect. Moore’s not my cuppa joe, but he knows what he’s doing and he runs with it. It’s a dirty job, etc. etc.
(Ironically, the best critique I’ve ever read of Moore was in the pages of The American Prospect. Remember that one ? No ? Oh well. Nevermind.)
June 29th, 2007 at 7:50 am
Try to sue when a surgeon in France screws up you life in a botched surgery and let’s not forget to ask the medical personel in Canada and the UK who couldn’t understand “why money would have anything whatsoever to do with providing or accessing care.” to return their paychecks and work for free.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:57 am
Let’s just say that since Woody can’t read French and doesn’t live in France and for all I know has never been to France, it would be expected that he would pull out a news story in English about the experiences of one person to back up his statements. It would not be expected that he would have read the extensive investigations about what happened in 2003, which are lengthy and of course in French, as I have done. Health care personnel and institutions were heroic during that time, and they handled things much better than one would expect if a major heat wave hit Los Angeles or Chicago today.
June 29th, 2007 at 8:19 am
I thought the bit in Fahrenheit about the oil pipeline conspiracy in Afghanistan was pulled out of his butt.
Yup, that was his weakest film…and I have yet to see this one, but I’m a fan, and I’m looking forward to it. I agree about whether or not it was wise to feature Cuba, but the best I’ve heard on that I think was from one of the netroots liberals I think Ezra Klein, in which he reads it as not saying that Moore is saying Cuba is so great, but that if they can, in theory, socialize health care, so can america. The fact that he’s carrying the idea of taking profit out of health care into thep ublic conciousness should negate any sins in the eyes of some.
I was surprised to see Christopher Hayes redbait him in the pages of the Nation.
June 29th, 2007 at 8:22 am
IResponding to Reg again: n that sense he’s learned a useful lesson from the rightwing wackjobs like Coulter and Limbaugh that if you, literally, create a cartoonish character who becomes the relentless tribune for a point of view
He didn’t learn it from them…he’s been like this since Roger and Me and his excellent 90s TV shows TV Nation and Awful Truth (from which Sicko is based on a sketch) – It all started with him trying to fire Paul Berman from Mother Jones for writing Pro-Contra propaganda, and in turn Adam Hocschild tried to screw him, but he got the last laugh.
June 29th, 2007 at 8:25 am
I remember getting bit by a family dog at my grandparents’ home in Vermont when I was a kid, and my dad having to pay the hospital. I thought this was so strange. A good companion piece, showing how underfunded and sometimes stunted our system happens to be is Denys Arcand’s Quebecois film The Barbarian Invasions.
June 29th, 2007 at 8:30 am
Preview of government health care in the U.S. – in English only:
That “one person,’” who wrote the story of French medical care, has been writing on the subject for twenty years.
If 15,000 elderly Americans died from heat stroke in this country, no one would call the actions of government “heroic.” If French personnel were “heroic” when thousands died, then FEMA deserves the Congressional Gold Medal for its Katrina response.
June 29th, 2007 at 8:32 am
Well wouldn’t you know it, I messed up on the link to the preview of gov’t health care in the U.S.
WitnessLA
June 29th, 2007 at 8:44 am
Don’t worry, folks, we are not going to have a repeat of the radiocarbon dating episode. Since Woody knows nothing on his own and does not know how to do research, he is always reduced relying on Google and Wikipedia and his own seat of the pants illogic.
btw, about 19,000 people are estimated to have died in the heat wave in Italy. The issue in these situations is always to identify what actions would have reduced these tolls. A private health insurance non-system with no coverage for the poor and elderly doesn’t quite seem to be the prescription. Think it through, Woody, if you can.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:21 am
If Woody goes ‘anecdotal” he loses the debate. If he goes “comparative empirical” he loses the debate. If he argues from cost-effectiveness he loses the debate. And if he argues from bureaucratic inefficiency he loses the debate. (Of course, the most extensive example of government-run health care in the US is the VA hospitals – of which even Walter Reed isn’t one – which have an excellent record. Again, Woody’s stuck in “anecdotal”, which is an argument he would lose rather stunningly if anybody here had the time to waste taking his ignorance head on. I’m happy to let him drown in his own drool.)
The only argument from evidence that a conservative can win as regards the superiority of the US health care system is “I’ve got mine and I don’t really care about the rest.” That’s a winner, so far as exposing the underlying philosophy of rightwingers on health care – and pretty much everything else. Of course, they never use that core belief as their public face anymore because “normal people” in the United States – i.e. the large majority – will turn away. The train has left the station on this one – liberals have won the “hearts and minds” debate, although a lot of work is yet to be done. The biggest problem we’ll face over the next few years is keeping people who viscerally hate the government or pols bought and paid for by insurance and drug companies and see an opportunity for looting the Treasury from trying to get their grubby hands on what is quickly becoming a pre-destined liberal social policy so they can fuck it up.
Also, cummings – you’re right that Moore patented his populism early on. And I’d never compare him to slime like Coulter other than in similiarities of a Barnumesque strategy for injecting ideas into the political sphere that’s been an undeniable success. Moore isn’t a “hater”. He’s a genuine left populist – in some ways reminiscent of William Jennings Bryan who created a public persona embodying concern for the “little guy” who was getting screwed and traversed the country stirring up crowds with his message.
Also – let’s junk this “free health care” phrase, just as we should junk “end the war in Iraq” when discussing the issues. Neither such possibility exists in the context of the policy debates.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:22 am
Hey, I was right on carbon dating, and research doesn’t have to be from the card catalogue to be legitimate.
We’ve had terrible heat waves in the U.S. without thousands dying. Instead of government run health care to solve such problems, we need government supplied air conditioners. It’s cheaper and provides comfort year round.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:33 am
“we need government supplied air conditioners”
George W. is already on it.
Health care and climate control, in one fell swoop. Chalk one up to The Onion for keeping us mirthfully sane, yet again.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:33 am
P.S. I had to go to the emergency room two weeks ago for what seems to have become my annual kidney stone delivery. Marc Cooper went to the emergency room recently, too. We did fine! However, we prepared in advance for this need rather than spending the money on booze and gambling and hoping that the government would take care of us. Well, at least I did.
While there, I saw on the hospital lobby walls multiple notices about the hospital’s policy to treat all emergencies for people even with no insurance–and this was from one of the top hospital systems in the country. If a woman is about to deliver a baby, she gets all the care that she needs without having to deliver in the hallways.
However, if I was in a car wreck and needed to go to a trauma center, I would pick Atlanta’s government-run Grady Hospital which specializes in patching up gun shots and knife wounds.
(Why is Walter Reed being praised by reg when he was trashing it for its treatment of our Iraq soldiers a couple of months ago?)
Private enterprise works better than socialism.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:34 am
Woody one question. Name ONEIndustrialized country that swap their medical care delivery system for ours. Just one. Can you do it?
June 29th, 2007 at 9:35 am
Re Samuel – OK I’ll settle for Shrub’s health care plan too.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:35 am
“government supplied air conditioners”
Environmentalists ought to love this one. One could ask, cheaper in what sense?
June 29th, 2007 at 9:36 am
Government health care is such a disaster that I believe it’s terribly dangerous for the nation to force our President, Congress and vital military personnel into this system of socialist hell. The nation is in peril. I suggest we immediately rescue these essential Americans from the horror of it all and ask them to do the right thing – just go out and buy a private insurance policy. Otherwise, we’re doomed.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:36 am
oops – Samuel beat me to the punch.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:38 am
Samuel, there you go! (Hey, I see that my previous comment is awaiting moderation Let me try it again leaving out what may be a filtered name.)
—-
Do-over
P.S. I had to go to the emergency room two weeks ago for what seems to have become my annual kidney stone delivery. Marc went to the emergency room recently, too. We did fine! However, we prepared in advance for this need rather than spending the money on booze and gambling and hoping that the government would take care of us. Well, at least I did.
While there, I saw on the hospital lobby walls multiple notices about the hospital’s policy to treat all emergencies for people even with no insurance–and this was from one of the top hospital systems in the country. If a woman is about to deliver a baby, she gets all the care that she needs without having to deliver in the hallways.
However, if I was in a car wreck and needed to go to a trauma center, I would pick Atlanta’s government-run Grady Hospital which specializes in patching up gun shots and knife wounds.
(Why is Walter Reed being praised by reg when he was trashing it for its treatment of our Iraq soldiers a couple of months ago?)
Private enterprise works better than socialism.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:43 am
Doctor’s Union Protests
The American Medical Association said on Monday it will ask state and federal authorities to investigate retail health clinics such as those offered in CVS/Caremark stores, Wal-Mart Stores and Walgreen Co. (for providing inexpensive health care quickly and efficiently).
June 29th, 2007 at 9:45 am
(above was ref to comment about the “socialist hell” our President, Congress and troops are subjected to for their health care that’s “in moderation”. )
June 29th, 2007 at 10:06 am
I haven’t seen Sicko, but I did enjoy N.V.’s review. I’m loathe to contribute a dime toward Moore’s ego so I doubt I’ll go see his film. That said, I basically agree with Marc that the US health care system is so tragically screwed up that even Michael Moore could make some decent points.
However, as a single payer advocate, having Moore in ‘our camp’ might be a bigger liability than an asset. There’s the potential that the political elites, the presidential candidates, and all that, will frame the single payer side as the extreme fringe side. Potential? Hell, we all know its coming. Actually, it’s been ongoing.
Relying on the moral high ground arguments of covering all Americans aint gonna work. Just look at how the conversation on this thread on this site has already got Woody v reg, and Woody v Balter pickering over other examples of universal care (France — btw the way, I agree with Balter). I think what the single payer side has to do is make the economic agruments that appeal to people pocket books. For instance, when General Motors executives are citing the cost of health insurance as greater than the cost of steel in US-made cars, there’s the chance that the universal coverage side will actually make traction.
When good folk like Woody realizes that there’s an economic benefit to a national health insurer, just maybe we’ll be able to make some headway.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:22 am
Want to lower health costs? Have the Democrats agree to limit malpractice awards. Of course, the lawyers who contribute so heavily to the Democrats wouldn’t like that. Address that.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:35 am
“Want to lower health costs? Have the Democrats agree to limit malpractice awards. Of course, the lawyers who contribute so heavily to the Democrats wouldn’t like that. Address that.”
OK, Woody. You’re right. There is no doubt that there is too much litigation in our health care system. But curbing this cost is just the tip of the ice berg. The really costly part is our system of third party payers. A patient sees the doctor. The doctor then pads the bill upward because he or she knows that its often a crap shoot to get the insurer to reimburse the bill. The insurer has an army of accounts trying to reduce the bill. This nuts. We ought to have the power of one big, not for profit insurer regulating the costs and reimbursing the doctors appropriately.
You want to lower the costs. Don’t just rail on the lawyers. Boot the accountants.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:44 am
Opps. That should read “…an army of accountants…”
June 29th, 2007 at 10:47 am
Always amazes me that some people are concerned about health care costs but not about spending $100 billion plus each year in Iraq.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:03 am
Why bother but I’ll try. Rand Corporation did a study and found that, AT MOST, Malpractice claims and the premiums chargedf by insurers added 4% maximum to the national health care bill. When you consider that Medicare has about the same overhead cost while private plans average in the twenties guess what would save more by elimination?
Oh, and back in the seventies we had the great “Malpractice Reform”
legislation signed by then Gov Jerry Brown which capped “Pain and Suffering Awards” at 250,000 and limited damages to compensatory. Rand also looked t tht and, guess what Woody? Very, very few claims are upheld and before you can sue you have to get a second opinion that the doc screwed up. It ain’t easy my fgriend as any trial lawyer will tell you.
(Hint: Unlike accountants they work on contingency so they pick their cases very carefully.)
Still, with all this “Reform” California Health Insurance Rates lead the nation in percentage rises and we lead in the number of uninsured.
And I’m still waiting to hear what industrialized nation would swap delivery systems with us.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:09 am
And see Rep Steve Kagen’s piece on HUFF POST (Cross posted at KOS) on why he declined his congressional health coverage. Until everyone can get as good a plan he won’t accept it. I remember when the late Paul Wellstone introduced an amendment to a bill saying that the Congress would live under the same health care plan passed for the country – if none passed then the Reps and Senators would have none – and was called a grandstander by Arlen Specter!
BTW Kagen notes that the monthly cost for a plan covering a family of four in his, largeley rural district, would be a thousan dollars.
Anyone here think that the taxes for a government health insurance plan would be that high?
June 29th, 2007 at 11:14 am
And may I say Marc that I really don’t a good goddamn what anyone at the WaPo has to say about Moore’s film. See Eric Alterman’s piece in the NATION on their disgraceful treatment of Al Gore and his new book. See any number of truly awful editorials and op ed pieces in Fred Hiatt’s excuse for an opinion page. And se Josh Marshall in TPM today marveling at the POST getting all that credit for the Darth Cheney series by telling us stuff that anyone who reads blogs like Marshall’s has known for years!
June 29th, 2007 at 11:17 am
“bickering over other examples of universal care”
These are all examples of single payer. There are sidebars to this argument, however. Britain does, in fact, have socialized medicine with a single “National Health Service”. It’s far from ideal although it’s very, very cheap and still has all of the empirical evidence on its side regarding outcomes and effective cost allocations compared to the totally dysfunctional US system Canada has a system of single payer that excludes any private insurance. France has a very effective single payer system, which everyone who seriously studies health care outcomes and delivery, as opposed to free-market ideologues trying to find cracks or anecdotes that are obscurantist rather than analytical, has found to be one of the best in the world. But France allows folks to buy extra insurance to guarantee themselves “premium” health care if they so desire and can afford it. I think, given the particular culture of the United States, that’s the way to go. N Neither France nor Canada have “socialized medicine” – they’ve got socialized health insurance. There’s a difference and, compared to England at least, the system seems to appeal more to the “consumer”. Rob is right that the single payer option has gotten pushed to the “left” side of the argument. (The “left” side should be “socialized medicine”.) The reason, of course, is the money spent by insurance companies and Big Pharma on lobbying and campaign contributions. There’s no constituency, not even close, in the country’s with single payer that’s as large and dissatisfied with their health care – or lack of it – as the majority of US citizens. A fact Woody couldn’t possibly explain other than with invective against the French or whomever.
Incidentally, there’s been a very interesting “debate” this past week between Kevin Drum and Andrew Sullivan over the issue of drug company profits,investment, research dollars, relative innovations by US vs. European drug firms, etc. Very data-rich exchange. Kevin had the better argument and showed just how indefensible the rip-off of US consumers has been.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:18 am
When the doctor wanted me to go through some stupid, extensive testing, I asked him if it was because of medical or legal considerations. He and I knew the answer. A lot of the hidden costs are unnecessary tests to avoid legal liability. Factor in that.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Woody ever ask docs about their investment portfolios? Guess what a lot of them are stupid when it comes to other things.
Still waiting . . .
June 29th, 2007 at 11:27 am
“(Doctors) pads the bill upwardâ€
Just yesterday, my GOD daughter came over to my house with a bill from Kaiser for $480 for two regular doctor visits. That’s $240 for a single 10 minute visit.
She is 20, a fulltime student at the community college and had previously been on Medical which canceled her coverage a couple of weeks before the incident .
My doctor bills my wife and I less than $100 for a similar visit. Kaiser has padded the cost of the visit by more than double, which they normally billed the state of California. But, since CA turned it down the bill now came to her.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:42 am
“Malpractice claims and the premiums charged by insurers added 4% maximumâ€
OK, please explain how $150,000+ insurance cost per year for Obstetrics, Gynecology and Surgery converts to 4%!
See: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03702.pdf
June 29th, 2007 at 11:43 am
rlo and reg, I can’t believe that you are using actual FACTS to argue with Woody on this blog. That really gives you an unfair advantage in the debate and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
The differences between the French and British systems is interesting. Although both are single payer, in France a patient goes to a private doctor of their choice and is then reimbursed by the social security system. The system decides what the base fee shall be, but the patient has the choice of going to a doctor who charges more than that. The extra charges are then covered by the top up private plan which many people have.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Again, Woody, you’re right. Our health care system has been ‘lawyered up’ a bit too much, and you’re personal example is a good example. There’s no reason not to try to curb some of the waste there. But please scroll up to rlc’s comment at 11:03am. The amount that the malpratice contributes is tiny.
Using you’re own experience Woody: Do you have insurance through work? Bet you do, right? You’re doctor can run all those tests because it’s not you that is directly financially responsible for the cost of treatment. It’s you’re employer’s health plan (3rd party). The system is market illogical. There is every incentive for the doctor to run all those tests — the doc has his ass covered legally — and the bill is levelled against your employer’s plan.
Hint: Woody, if you’re employer didn’t have to pay so much for your health care, you’d be in a much stronger position to get a raise.
See, Woody, I’m trying to help you make more money.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:54 am
David says, “The first business of government is to take care of the people – all the people.”
David, if you’re talking about the FEDERAL government, where do you get that idea? It sure isn’t in the Constitution, which defines what the “business of government” is.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Hey, I’m really short on time and can’t address questions right now, but let me add that I’ve handled the accounting and taxes for a number of physicians and dentists, so I know their numbers. Malpractice insurance increases caused a number of my obgyn clients to quit and go work for a corporation and others ones to make less and still have to increase patient fees and add costly recommended services “just in case.” And, every time that a newborn child was less than perfect, the doctor got sued because it had to be his fault that it was premature or had a birth defect.
Government can’t operate any more efficiently than private enterprise. Give private enterprise the same malpractice protection and other advantages that the government claims for itself, and we would be better off.
Rob, is after my heart. It’s the bottom line.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
I’ll have to plead guilty as charged, Woody. I’m after your heart, and as I stated earlier, if it takes economic pocket book consciousness to get there, well so be it.
Since you’re retiring from this thread for a while, let’s recap my claim: You, Woody, would probably end up making more money through your firm – or if you decided to go into business for yourself – if we had a national, not for profit insurance system. You and you’re company could contribute a fixed per centage and have all the basics covered — set number of yearly doctor visits, preventative care, and protection from catastophic illness or injury. If you wanted an ‘eye-job’ and needed to get a Rx for Botox, well, then you’d pay for it, right? You could purchase a private plan for this. But all the basics for you and everyone else would be covered. Pretty good deal, huh? And think about this: every company would pay the same rates. A GM or Ford wouldn’t be disadvantaged by outrageous health premiums that other companies didn’t have to pay. Every business operating in the US would have to start a the same entry point on health care. Let every company win the competitiveness race on the merits of their products and services, not on the margins of health costs. Isn’t that a level playing field that pro-business types like yourself could get behind?
You’re sort of right, the “government can’t operate any more efficiently than private enterprise.” Market based solutions usually work better than government ones. But health care is one of the key exceptions. Woody, you’d agree that markets work when there are rational actors in the marketplace, right? Well, ask yourself, where’s the rationality in our current private, for profit, health insurance system?
Seriously, Woody, I hope you chew on all of this for a while.
June 29th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
Since Malpractice rates keep coming back as a concern – rather like the zombies in “Night of the Living Dead” and since OB/GYNs are always Exhibit A, I’m going to repeat a story I told here some time ago.
Many years ago “60 Minutes” did a story on a malpractice case involving a baby born with severe defects at Georgetown Uuniversity Hospital. The physicians involved were on the Med School Faculty and nationally recognized for their work in “problem Pregencies” as this one was. Despite their expertise though the result was quite bad. So the parents sued. And their lawyer, citing an article in an obscure Australian Medical Journal which advised against the procedure used, convinced a jury to award the couple millions. The doctors were presented as victims and indeed it appeared that had done everything posible. And there is the fact that nature can be cruel. Bad things happen. Its nobody’s fault.
But consider this. That child faces a lifetime of expensive medical and hospital care. To place that burden on the family would be to add a financial disaster to the medical one. And as a Harvard study showed in 2005 half the personal bankruptcies are related to medical bills. Its very unlikely that the French or British legal system would have entertained this lawsuit -and, indeed, even here such a suit is the equivalent of rolling the dice or – if you will – winning the lottery, since most claims are rejected by juries according to Rand’s study. But in Frnace or Britain (Or Canada or Germany) it is also recognized that this should not mean that the parents must pay for something over which they have no control. So the costs of nature’s malevelonce is socialized (there’s that word) over the whole society. Its kept a medical tragedy.
And that is what socialized means. You can also call it community rating. Look, new genetic tests will reveal our propensity for disease and allow us to plan ahead and prevent. But if its “Preexisting” it won’t be covered. So no one will test.
Want lower rates? Want preventive Medicine?
Then you better try National Health Insurance!
June 29th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Finally one other thing. I know that Castro’s Cuba is not a free place. I know that no one will put it up as a model society. But I’m afraid that Marc is pulling a fast one on you. He says that the hospital in question is for “Medical Tourists” and that shows the weakness of Cuba’s Health Care System and questions Moore’s use of Cuba.
Well I went to the site Marc referenced and guess what I Found?
The authors claim that, despite the severe economic problems there Cuba is a leader in the third world and has produced a thriving biotech industry. Its Meningitis B Vaccine is more effective than US or European ones and is now licensed to Glaxo,Smith Kline.
It is involved in joint ventures ith pharmaceutical companies in China, India and Russia.
And those “Medical Tourists” mainly come fromLatin America and gerate $40 million in hard currency ploughed into the sytem to purchase drugs (and Cuba is 80% self sufficent)
Furthermore – and most critical – Cuba has health care statistics comperable to those of Europe.
Not too shabby and it makes Moore’s point. If even they can do it what the hell is the matter with us?
And the source? Some far left group? Maybe Bob Avakian’s RCP?
Actually its from the BBC World Service.
(I know it ain’t FOX but I’ll give them some credit!)
June 29th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
And since, irony of irony!, I’ve got to leave now for a doctor’s appointment, I’ll leave the discussion of Nixon (and Reagan actually) for another time. Hint: it involves HMOs.
Bye for now.
(Maybe Woody will answer my question in my absense)
June 29th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
I enjoyed Sicko, although like all of his films it is like preaching to the choir.
In defense of Michael Moore’s admittedly bad sense of humor…reference reg above. As usual, reg nailed it perfectly. Michael Moore has indeed utilized the same kind of half-honest gimmicks that Oxy Moron and the Scary Blond Pundette have been pulling for years.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
As usual, Woody has no idea what he is talking about.
MB:
I’m working on a macro that will enable you to put the above text in a comment with significantly fewer keystrokes.
I haven’t seen Sicko, but I’ve red enough to suspect (and Marc’s experience goes a long way to confirm it) that the Cuban hospital portion is probably a Potemkin village moment.
If Moore wanted to use a good example of how a country in Latin America could provide health care for its citizens, he would have been well advised to cite Costa Rica, which has accomplished that without having to imprison, torture or suppress the opposition.
The added benefit is that it has attracted expats to visit Costa Rica for medical and dental procedures not covered by insurance, putting money into the local economy.
My sister and her fiance went their twice for him to have dental implants. Each time they spent more than a week there, spending money on hotels, meals and excursions. Factoring in their expenses, he still saved over 6K.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
I respect Michael Moore because he is in the fray. His style, and a good deal of his success, derives from his ability to channel his Inner Fifteen Year Old. His style is to alternate from confrontation to suck-up. And it appeals to people that others on the left cannot or do not really care to reach: poor and not so well to do white folks. For me he gets lots of credit for trying.
I also agree with whoever it was who credits him with the willingness to act as a cartoon character in order to influence the course of public affairs. While you can say he’s actually “turning people off,” I would disagree. He might provide evidence to some that lefties are shabby smartasses, but I doubt that really costs anything in the long run. And I am certain that by showing real people and real tragedies, with a sense of the absurd, he has influenced a lot of people to think differently about important issues.
Michael Moore is who he is, and he’s in the fray, doing some good. No hate from me.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
(this bit of snark got lost in “moderation”, and although Samuel hit at the center of it, I’m gonna drop it in here again)
Government health care is such a disaster that I believe it’s terribly dangerous for the nation to force our President, Congress and vital military personnel into this system of socialist hell. The nation is in peril. I suggest we immediately rescue these most essential Americans from the horror of it all and ask them to do the right thing – just go out and buy a private insurance policy. Otherwise, we’re doomed.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Well, couldn’t disagree with Reg more on that point, as The Daily Howler (who did the best piece I saw on F 9-11, and hardly a rave) pointed out, Moore is diferent from most humorists of the present day: he’s funny.
I suspect what bugged Cummings about the film was that Moore was an intellectualy honest Nadar supporter: he admitted Bush’s election was a national disaster. After two and a half years of reporting on the White House that might as well have been written by Woody; Americans went wild for the tonic of F 9-11, can you blame them? And again, it takes some industrial strength sour grapes to hold it against Moore.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Totally, irrevocably, unpardonably off topic:
Michael Turner, if you’re out there checking in…. Remember your rant about American troops trenching back to Kurdistan? And, the dizzying array of political positions that could be defaulted to by that move?
I just finished a 30 minute phone survey (questions not all that well constructed, btw) that criss-crossed my thoughts/feelings/understandings/inclinations about that very issue.
So credit, where credit is due. Someone, somewhere, must be thinking hard about that option.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
So I’m coming home from work, listening to NPR, and they’re running this story that the recent Medicare Reform which allows for increased numbers of the private insurers (i.e. Medicare Advantage) now costs approximately $1000 more per senior than the traditional Medicare program. The ‘reform’ was sold to the public as letting ‘market forces’ bring down the cost of care.
Where’s our beloved accountant and his trusty slide ruler and calculator?
June 29th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
“couldn’t disagree with Reg more on that point”
Are you talking about the pipeline in Afghanistan ? This thread is now so long, I’m lost… Didn’t see Howler on F911. If you know about when it was posted, I’ll check the archive.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:41 pm
More quick stuff:
Video Clip: The Joy Of Socialized Medicine
Families Making $82,000 are Poor
American Drug Companies Save Europeans
Okay, I’ll go look at the above questions now.
June 29th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
No, I was talking about weather Moore is funny.
As to the pipeline, like the Bush’s cushy relations with The Saudi Royals and other things in the movie, they are thrown out haphazardly, and you can draw your own conclusions. But was something made up?
June 29th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Rob, your formula that all businesses regardless of size pay the same for health care puts an undo burden on small businesses that would cripple them, put them out of business, or force them to sell to larger companies. Mandated costs, like minimum wages, just keep adding up.
As an individual, I would fear that the government would prohibit private health care and would force me to use “their doctors” rather than “my doctors.”
However, you definitely are on the right track of knowing that I can be convinced if the economics work out…and, we don’t suffer in timely care.
*****
rlc, I couldn’t remember your question and had to back-track quite a bit. I don’t know what industrialized country would swap their system for ours, but that has nothing to do with anything. They do what they think is best for them and we do what we think is best for us. If my neighbor paints his house orange and likes it, then fine. Just leave me alone to paint mine whatever color I want.
Diiferent countries and even different regions within our own country have different needs and resources.
I hope your doctor’s appointment went well. Be thankful that you are in the goold ol’ USA, where you didn’t have to wait three months.
*****
Rob, on your NPR story, believe me, the devil is in the details. Give me ALL the facts, and I’m more than likely able to tear the NPR story apart (those left-wing communist freeloaders of taxpayers.)
June 29th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
“No, I was talking about weather Moore is funny.”
I think he’s pretty funny. I’ve enjoyed watching every one of his movies. Just get bothered by some bits when I start thinking about them. I do think he overdoes his schtick.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Nardy, why do you extrapolate such inane, stupid, paranoid interpretations of what I say… Do you think I disagree that Bush is a national disaster? Bush is president because the Republicans stole the election both through electoral manipulation not just in Florida but in many other parts of the country, as well as the Supreme Court coup….Those who say that Nader made it easier for Bush to steal the election are really grasping at straws…do you really think that Bush et. al would not have found a way to steal the election.
And as is shown in stark contrast in F911, the Democrats took at as the election was stolen from President Gore. What I didn’t like about it, frankly was the reliance on conspiracism and the borderline racist portrayal of America led astray by Arab manipulators.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Nothing was made up, but Moore relies on the viewer to infer something that wasn’t proven when he could have focused on many other things. I think he’s a very sincere man, btu one could read his reliance on Saudi based conspiracy theories as both a sop to the truthers and soft bigotry. He even goes so far as to imply that the 911 attacks were directed by the Saudi government.
Am I pro-Saudi? Fuck no. They’re the worst. But there’s a lot that could be said about them that is far more provable. As I think the host of this blog pointed out at the time, Moore also studiously ignores Israel, aside from the odd shout out to Rachel Corrie in his books.
I think he’s a very important cultural presence, but he has some serious analytical flaws. I hear he visits Marx’s grave in London. His heart’s in the right place.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
The Department of Defense has identified 3,563 American service members who have died since the start of the Iraq war. It confirmed the deaths of the following Americans this week:
NEWSOME, Daniel A., 27, Staff Sgt., Army; Chicopee, Mass.; First Cavalry Division.
SANDOVAL, Frank M., 27, Sgt., Army; Yuma, Ariz.; Second Battalion, Fifth Artillery.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
Woody, this would be the starting point under a nationalized health insurer: if a business — whether it’s a car maker or a donut maker — couldn’t cover it’s fair cut on health premiums, well then, it ain’t a business worth starting up.
And please do not call this socialized medicine. Socialized insurance? Yes of course. By definition, that’s what insurance is: a socialized cost. (Hint: Aetna, for example is actually a membership you pay into) You’d have access to the doctor of your choice.
I’m looking forward to you taking all of these ideas and concepts up with your local rotary members and your friends in the chamber of commerce.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:55 am
“I hear he visits Marx’s grave in London.”
His grave may be in London, but they buried him in Moscow.
June 30th, 2007 at 1:57 am
I just came hone from watching Michael Moore’s “Sicko” which I throroughly enjoyed. The man is brilliant. He is able to wrap radical politics in pop culture in a way that could open alot of American minds. Apart from jealousy, I’ve never really understood Marc’s beef with Michael. I mean doesn’t Marc pontificate, ad nauseum, about the left’s need to actually reach out and speak to the people we profess to care about? Isn’t he constantly attacking pointy head academics, vanguardists and others for being out of touch with the lives of ordinary Americans. At risk of romanticisation, I’d say but the best of Michael Moores work expresses this genuine effection and solidarity with those at the receiving end of capitalisms blows. I think liberals and leftist could learn alot from Moore. There’s an emotive quality to his work, an impassioned outrage, evident in all his films ‘Sicko” IMHO is his best one so far. His politics certainly aren’t my own. I enjoyed Fahreheit 9/11 but the Bush/Saudi, Bin laden fixation obcures the reality of what US power abroad is really about. Although the Saudi oligarchy is undoubtly despicable, one can too easily leave the theater thinking that rich arabs control america and perhaps if bush and his crew weren’t literally on the take, then the disatrous invasion of iraq would not have occured. Ommited is the fact that the sanctions, which killed far more iraqis then the subsequant war and occupation, was presided over by a democrat, bill clinton. Gone is the complex history of american involvement in the Middle East, the overthrow of regimes like Mossadegh which threatened nationalisation of oil, the buttressing of wahabism in opposition to secular pan arab nationalism, as well as the subjegation of the Palestinians. I had to air out those criticism to ensure folks that I’m not on Moore’s payroll. But when Marc says that he enjoyed “Sicko” inspite of Moore, he’s either being dishonest or cranky, perhaps both
June 30th, 2007 at 6:37 am
rob, here’s where you and I have a great departure in philosohy: Woody, this would be the starting point under a nationalized health insurer: if a business — whether it’s a car maker or a donut maker — couldn’t cover it’s fair cut on health premiums, well then, it ain’t a business worth starting up.
Government just can’t keep adding taxes, unfunded mandates, and paperwork onto businesses and say that it’s the fault of the companies if they finally are sucked dry, have to fire their employees, and go under.
June 30th, 2007 at 7:44 am
Rob, you were doing *great,* and I was applauding you, and cheering you on, every inch of the way until you got to, “[I]f a business … couldn’t cover it’s fair cut on health premiums, well then, it ain’t a business worth starting up.” You’d have to clarify what you meant by ‘fair cut,’ but I think I disagree. Lots of successful small businesses start on a shoestring. One of the most thoroughly under reported economic engines we have in this country is small business. It goes under reported (or, unreported) because the LMI arm of the DOL doesn’t have a means of “counting” it.
I sat in a DOL conference a few years back where county and municipal representatives were clamoring for information about employment data and employment projections for small businesses. Nada. No such data existed then, nor now. Their surveys didn’t cover businesses below a certain size.
Given the failure rate of small business, it takes a lot of start-ups to create a viable small business sector. The one thing nationalized health insurance doesn’t want to squelch is entrepreneurial effort. Were the government to make a provision that, say, separated corporate bodies from sole proprietorships, or establish guidelines based on the revenue generated, I think it’s very doable. Small business owners simply do not have the ability to generate, or participate in, large insurance pools.
Given the fluid nature of the small (or, niche) business climate, never mind the brutal nature of ‘free market’ conditions of corporate contractions and mergers, Americans (from north to south) would be better off if health insurance wasn’t tied to their place of employment. And, I think, Americans would be receptive to a nationalized plan if it totally unlocked, or de-coupled, health insurance from place of employment. I imagine, that de-coupling would radically change the face of employer-employee relationships. It could be better for both sides. And, I assume that’s what’s being discussed – although I haven’t read that specifically.
Even better if the government could roll health insurance, social security contributions, UI, and worker’s comp into a single package. It would dramatically reduce the paperwork and filing headaches.
June 30th, 2007 at 8:19 am
LotS, what I prefer is some system that allows a person to use his money to handle his health needs as he sees best rather than one size fits all. If you want to move insurance from employers, don’t give it to the government. Give it back to the individuals and tie it with full deductions or credits, whether you itemize or not. For those who fall through the cracks, look at your pools there…but, I don’t have any details on how that would work. In short, I’ll favor just about anything over government running this.
June 30th, 2007 at 8:47 am
“I’ll favor just about anything over government running this.”
It’s clear tht irrational reductionist ideology drives this man’s arguments. This is as much a waste of time as discussing the virtues of entrepreneurs with a dedicated Communist. Thankfully, people who approach the issue of universalizing health insurance with no ammunition except visceral hatred for government programs – no matter how superior they’ve been proven empirically – are an increasingly small minority. “Normal people” don’t think the way Gingrichite cranks skew the world.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:01 am
Marx was buried in Moscow? Well, the British LAbour government – who seem decidedly unMarxist have many people who claim roots in (non-communist) Marxism. US senator Bernie Sanders is or at least was a Marxist when he was a protege of Michael Parenti. Canada has plenty of Marxists serving in all three branches of government. Cuba is run by people who claim Marx as an influence as are a few other Latin American countries. South Africa and Italy have strong communist parties in their governing coalitions. Switzerland has some cantons run by Marxists. India’s most economically succesful (and even pro-business) areas like Kerala are run by Marxists. Maoist Marxists have the balance of power in Nepal. China still claims Marxism, weirdly.
The old mole still burrows.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:02 am
An interesting thread to say the least. I’m not sure, but I don’t think any of the above commenters are health care providers. I am and my feelings about single payor vs. private are a little different than everyone else’s.
As a provider, I have decided (and acted on the last two years) not to accept insurance companies for a couple of reasons; a) the paperwork is horrendous to get paid sometimes thirty days later, sometimes 60 and once I had an insurance company tell me that since I didn’t get the bill in within one week of services, I had to accept the payment that they would pay to a non-affiliated provider. Often, getting in insureor to agree to pay is difficult, I’ve talked to nurses trained in ER about psych issues. I’ve had to discuss cases of psych issues with a gynecologist. The Insurance Companies do try to get mental health specialists to do the reviews, but it doesn’t always work and people do move on to other jobs.
The only insurance that I accept is Medicaid because I feel that the poor have as much a right to counseling as anyone. And even then, not all the poor are elegible for Medicaid so I sometimes do pro-bono but for obvious reasons I can’t do that too much let alone all the time. But Medicaid pays less than 50% of my usual fee, but they pay within 10 days of billing so there is a positive tradeoff. I occasionally get questioned about the bill from a Medicaid reviewer, but they are ALWAYS knowledgeable about mental health issues.
Both single payor and pvt. insurance have pitfalls that can screw up the system and neither one is the answer. I suggest a different approach that might be a combination of the two or, maybe even allow some folk who opt out of the system to obtain some sort of catastrophic coverage and let them pay and choose thier own treatment. Those unable to work, unable to access health care in the private sector can have something like Medicaid or Medical, those who are young and healthy might opt out and get catastrophic coverage only. Those that need insurance should have several different policies to choose from, but with a cafe plan that lets them choose what coverage they want. And everyone understand that health choices have consequences… I know, I was a smoker and got lung cancer, and even though I had a modest insurance plan, my bills will take another year or so to pay off – assuming I live that long
And of course, getting back to Moore – Moore is a polemicist, if you lean to the left, you are likely to like his work, if you lean to the right, you likely won’t. That doesn’t make him an automatic liar or an automatic truthteller (but some of his cherry picking does). I think he is an idiot but I did enjoy Roger and Me.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:27 am
If Marx has been buried in Moscow that will sure come as a shock to the caretakers at Highgate Cemetary!
June 30th, 2007 at 9:28 am
Woody, even if, as Rob has carefully stated, a socialized insurance program would put money in your pocket. Would insure that you could see the medical practitioners of your choosing, at a lower cost than you currently pay, with equal quality, you’d turn it down flat because the government was involved. Just like that. The specifics of the provision are meaningless because government provided it. Woody, you might as well use your toes for target practice.
See, this is what earns you all of the ad hominems lobbed at you. Surely you read the financial or business sections of the newspaper. Surely you are aware that business is gung-ho for help in managing employee health benefits. You couldn’t have missed that the major corporations all over this idea in their support. So you present like a kid whose been bested at some game, claims they never wanted to play the game in the first place, and the game is stupid.
Either, you’re playing the anti-government (small enough so I can drown it in a bathtub) argument for its own sake as a game – and it’s really not something you hold dear – or, you really would cut off your nose to spite your face. There are two antidotes to cognitive dissonance that I’ve seen. The first is where the person, through effort, sometimes great effort, reorganizes and re-examines the ‘truths’ embedded in their cognitive grid, or they have a death grip on the flimsy pole of “something must have been misrepresented, because I can’t have made an error.”
Whether you intend to, or not, you’re becoming a parody. Since, without evidence to the contrary, I believe you’re playing a game with these reactionary responses, I’m going on the record of choosing not to play.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:29 am
reg, I’ve discussed cost/benefit issues on health care, so it’s not just about government. However, government is not run by profit motive and can always raise taxes, and it rarely effectively calculates productivity of its employees, so it doesn’t care what it costs.
Every year politicans will “give away” a little more of other people’s money just to get votes. We’ve seen that with social security and the minimum wage.
It’s not just about efficiency, it’s about whom do you trust? I trust me to handle my affairs more than I trust Hillary Clinton to run them.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:36 am
LotS, I posted the above before I knew that you had made your comment. I’m not against government on everything. Our space program and the landing on the moon could not have been achieved by private enterprise. Wars are fought better by government. I’ve never said that I’m against government on everything, so if you and reg (not I) want to reduce the argument to something as simplistic as that and overlook everything else discussed, then you should leave the game.
Why rather than concentrate on the fact that I think that government does a pretty sorry job in most areas, will you tell me if there is any area that you wouldn’t turn over to the government?
It’s obvious that the Democrats would turn this nation into a socialist nanny state.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:37 am
And I thought Woody’s responses were, as usual, somewhat lacking.
Yes, it is a real shame that “Government” puts all those “Mandates” on business – like child labor, worker safety, wages and hours, etc. But he should fear not as the two amigos (Alito and Roberts) are card carrying members of the Federalist Society and, I believe, subscribe to the position of those like Richard Posner (one of the founders of the “Law and Economics” cult) that such matters should not be in the perview of government as they violate constitutional strictures on contract. Just give them time – they can only overturn so much settled law at a time!
As to his answer to my question I found that interesting. According to the odster each country does what’s best for itself. Sounds good. So where his is evidence that Americans have chosen our delivery system as the best of all our possible worlds? Want to see all the data from polling suggesting otherwise? Want to compare with the data from, say Canada, on satifaction?
No Woody the system we have works well for the insurance industry and pharma. It generates large amounts of cash. And to keep the good times rolling – and the bonuses coming in – they will spend millions telling you that you never had it so good and the evil, wicked government wants to send your doctor to the Gulag! I’ve seen them them do it time and time again here in CA on initiatives.
Europeans know full well what we have here and their response is best expressed in a book title from the seventies: “Don’t Get Sick in America.”
June 30th, 2007 at 9:38 am
Dadgum it. Everytime I turn around, one of my comments in awaiting moderation, and I have no idea what you might or might not read. I’m going to try to post this comment again, because of the relevancy to the preceding comment, but I’m not hopeful.
Re-post:
LotS, I posted the above before I knew that you had made your comment. I’m not against government on everything. Our space program and the landing on the moon could not have been achieved by private enterprise. Wars are fought better by government. I’ve never said that I’m against government on everything, so if you and reg (not I) want to reduce the argument to something as simplistic as that and overlook everything else discussed, then you should leave the game.
Why rather than concentrate on the fact that I think that government does a pretty sorry job in most areas, will you tell me if there is any area that you wouldn’t turn over to the government?
It’s obvious that the Democrats would turn this nation into a socialist nanny state.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Guys, my replies to you are not making it through. If you get this one, it will be a miracle.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:40 am
“I’ve discussed cost/benefit issues on health care”
Where? Since there’s absolutely no empirical evidence that does anything other than show the US system to be an utter disaster in terms of cost/benefit – i.e. $$$$$$, which you are apparently paid to count – I’d be interested in your coming up with some actual data on that one. Not anecdotal. Compare a range of health insurance systems and find me any evidence that the US scores even respectably – much less near the top – on cost/benefit.
Incidentally, do you trust yourself to make sure there are roads more than you trust the state of Georgia and the federal government ? Do you trust yourself to dig a well, more than you trust your local government to provide you with inexpensive, readily available water ? How about a sewage system. Trust yourself to compost your crap or do you rely on the evil, inefficient GOVERNMENT ? Just curious.
Oh, wait a minute. Look over there !!!!! HILLARY CLINTON !!!!!!!
June 30th, 2007 at 9:41 am
RLC – I realize that, I was referring to a scene in Sicko in which Moore visits the old mole’s grave….Reg rejointdered that Marx was “buried in Moscow” ie Marxism died with the SU. Far be that from the case.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:45 am
reg, our subdivision built our streets, has its own well system, utilizes septic tanks, has private trash pickup, and shoots intruders.
Maybe when Marc allows other of my comments to post will you see that I have partly covered your retorts.
June 30th, 2007 at 10:01 am
Finally the only reason our system of health care finance is employer based is an historical accident.
Back in WWII we had wage and price controls (I can see Woody shuddering!) so employers couldn’t compete for workers on the basis of salary.
Cut to Henry J. Kaiser. He had shipyards in California and Oregon and he needed to staff them. So what to do? Well the law didn’t say anything about benefits so he decided the biggest would be health care. He set up the Kaiser Health Foundation – a non-profit entity – to provide care for his workers. The foundation built hospitals and contracted with groups of physicians who were organized as the Permanente Clinic (named for a creek in Oakland) to provide the care. Thus was born Kaiser-Permanente. Since it was a pre-paid service and, since incentives were there to keep the clients healthy it became the model for the “Health Maintainence Organization” or HMO. Others – like Group Health Plan of Puget Sound – also sprang up. Now there were other non-profits like BlueCross/Blue Shield (in fact most state laws only permitted NON-PROFITS) but they were Fee-for-Service and, because they were third party providers, the link between costs and customer was weak at best. So the “Blues” tended to be inflationary while the HMOS showede price diciple. And they were high quality. Every study of Kaiser and its brothers showed that the system delivered high quality care at good prices.
Cut to the early seventies. Then, as now, people were getting concernedf about the “Health Care Crisis” (boy if they only knew!). And part of that crisis was exploding cost. The answer? HMOs. But let’s add one wrinkle. Over at Stanford there appeared an economist – Alan Einthovein – fresh from a stint as one of Bob McNamera’s “Whiz Kids” at the Pentagon. Having done a bang-up job there – see Vietnam – Einthovein turned his attention to health care. And being an economist of course he was besotted with “The magic of the market.” And saw that fee-for-service was bad since it didn’t allow market forces to drive prices. So he opted for HMOS. And he believed that Market incentives would drive their expansion.
But why limit them to non-profits? That what people like Ronald Reagan wanted to know. Didn’t the “Invisible hand” makes things better (and Ronnie had majored in Econ at Eureka College all those years ago)? And we get to Nixon finally. Moore discovered tapes (yeah THOSE Tapes – they’re not just about Watergate) in the National Archives where Dick and Ehrlichman are discussing this. And Nixon says it would be a good idea to allow for profit HMOs because, among other things, it would make donors happy as well as create new ones.
And so we got the profit motifivated insurers. And in a example of Gresham’s law they started to drive out the other. Blue Cross/Blue Shield changed its charter, so did Kaiser. Now they have for profit plans and see the results?
Sorry, but its time to go back and cut the link to employment – be good for business – and recognize that there are goods that are not and should not be subject to the profit impulse.
June 30th, 2007 at 10:10 am
If we’re really lucky, you’ll confine yourself to the streets your little subdivision built. Presumably there was no “tax” for these community services. It’s all just “free choice”.
Whether you know it or not, Woody, the model your gated community follows is known as “local government” with taxes and shared, communal systems that serve everyone. There’s no difference between your method of building roads, accessing water, etc. and any other municipality. It would appear you live in an unincorporated area, so you think it’s “private”, but your roads, wells, sewage, etc. are “mini-socialism”. If you really want to be an “individualist” who shuns “social services”, you’ll have to do better. I’m sure there’s some cabin somewhere in the backwoods of Georgia where you could live up to your bizarre theories.
June 30th, 2007 at 10:10 am
Woody – my response is in moderation. You’ll have to hold your breath.
June 30th, 2007 at 10:14 am
Suffice to say that your little community’s shared, compulsory water, sewage, road, etc. services are a model of socialism. Nothing new or “self-reliant” about it. It appears that you live in some unincorporated area, but it does its business the way all communities do as regards the basics.
June 30th, 2007 at 10:17 am
Trying to evade moderation with a quick response – you live in a small “town” that has guaranteed the same community services as any other and, of course, there’s a “tax” that applies to all in order to pay for them. Sorry…
June 30th, 2007 at 10:57 am
jcummings, in your Marxist/Communist/Socialist knowledge base, do you have the origin or a referent for a phrase, “we will force them to be free”?
June 30th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Appears the moderation mechanism of Cooper’s site is having a field day. I have a question pending for jc. Two lines was sufficient to tease it out this time.
June 30th, 2007 at 11:00 am
marc,
I will always keep saying this: have all your issues with Castro and his government…..
BUT dont impose sanctions and blockades and then sit back and say he cant run his country or its hospitals.
yes we are medical tourists there to bring in valuable foreign exchange but only because WE created that situation.
In places like Cuba and Zimbabwe and others, economic sanctions hurt the poor people more than it will ever hurt its despotic leaders.
June 30th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Just saw SICKO last night, and I very much recommend it. For the most part, Moore stays out of the way and, without cooking the facts as he did at times in F 911, has gathered some remarkably powerful anecdotal material that makes a great case for universal health care.
The Cuba section is indeed the weakest. However, Moore gets us there by first showing news clips of US government officials boasting about the great healthcare given prisoners at Guantanamo are receiving.
Then, in a boat outside Git’mo with a bunch of the now chronically ill 9/11 rescue workers, he shouts plaintively through a megaphone, “We don’t want any more care than you’re giving the evildoers! Just the same!”
Anyway, go see it. It ain’t perfect. But it’s pretty damned good.
Loved Natasha’s review, Marc. Smart daughter!
June 30th, 2007 at 11:11 am
By the way the “Medical Tourist” argument is somewhat bogus. I assume they go because they get good care.
June 30th, 2007 at 11:34 am
RLC,
I disagree. If they get quality of care and service that is better than the Cuban citizens get, the argument is entirely legitimate.
Given the existence of tourism apartheid and dollar stores in Cuba not available to all, it would not surprise me.
June 30th, 2007 at 11:46 am
“If Marx has been buried in Moscow that will come as a shock…”
metaphor
June 30th, 2007 at 11:50 am
reg, you don’t understand. My community doesn’t “tax” us and tell us to like it or lump it. We have several private trash pickup services that offer different days and different prices and compete for our business…or, we can take the trash somewhere if we don’t want to pay for them to pick it up. We have a private well for water, but the “city water” pipe runs right past us. Some tap in to that and others don’t. There’s also an electrical co-op that controls part of the county rather than Georgia power. Competition is good, and you don’t get that from government. (See school vouchers.) It’s better to have choices and to rely on private business than to pay high taxes to an inefficient government and get bad service.
Oh, we also have a private hospital that does a better job than any of the county hospitals in the whole state. And, our doctors speak English.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
What does a Harvard business professor know..thinking that the private sector can do better than the government with health care?
June 30th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Hillary is dead wrong. And why should anyone listen to a “Health Care Expert” from the Harvard Business School – an institution that saw fit to grant a degree to Dubya – when health care economists at nearby Harvard School of Public Health have been advocating some kind of government run program for years? And with some knowlege of the sector they cover? Business schools run on the crackbrained theory that there is a discipline called “Management”that is sui generus and can be applied to any enterprise regardless of that enterprise’s purpose. You can see how well that worked with American Industry as, one by one, we see our lunch being eaten by foreign competition. But the B-schools have an answer to that too – outsource. Lester Thurow – one the Dean of MIT’s Sloan School of Management and a pretty fair economist in his own right once wrote that the theory of comparative advantage still applied and Americ’a advantage in Management was the ability to get out of business quicker than anyone else!
Well, you can’t outsource health care (except at the margins like reading x-rays and the like) unless you want to go in for “Medical Tourism” (which some now do by sending patients to India – which turns out to be more cost effective for some procedures) so the answer is to solve the problem here and now. And as Reg pointed out there is overwhelming eividence that the US spends more (last OECD numbers I saw showed 50% more than the SECOND MOST EXPENSIVE system) and covers fewer people with worse health care outcomes than any other industrialized country. Marc made a big point above about Cuba ranking 39th world wide or two points below the US. So we rank 37th? Good enough for you? “WE’RE NUMBER 37!” Try that at one of your football Games!
In addition to HSPH, see the writings of Uwe Von Reinhardt, a health care economist at Princeton. He’s fond of the German model but his point is still that any system that doesn’t use the Government as the ultimate source of finance will a) leave people uncovered and b) create a “Competition” to see who can spend the most money.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
And now I’m off for a while.
By the way that Great Health Care System you talk about is fighting me over a procedure to cut off a growth on my nose – yeah I know spiteing my face ha! ha!
Its benign so they ruled the procedure “Cosmetic” and won’t cover it.
I never remember the name of the condition but its the same one that afflicted J.P.Morgan and its unsigthly as hell.
Still, I guess I should be grateful to have something in common with the financier. Too bad its not his money!
June 30th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
rlc: By the way that Great Health Care System you talk about is fighting me over a procedure to cut off a growth on my nose….
Your face? I see why they would call it cosmetic.
I gotta go, too. So, this is it for a while. I like this guy in Australia. Socialized Medicine
You want this?!
June 30th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Nuts, I messed up on that link, too.
Socialized Medicine
June 30th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Woody – you’d have exactly the same privileges in France’s universal health care system if you so desired. Personally, I wouldn’t live in a community where it was optional whether or not you contracted to pick up the garbage.
My advice to you is to not drive on the socialized streets and freeways – stick to your own “privatized” subdivision road. Since you’ve now made the argument against municipal water systems and public highways, you really are confined to a “gated community” – of the mind. Also, I’m not debating “socialized medicine” – as I’ve already made clear. The French health care delivery system isn’t “socialized” any more than ours is. Your great private hospital would still exist – except that anyone would have access to it because everyone would be insured. The model isn’t the county hospital. It’s a system where nobody is FORCED into the county hospital, or any other hospital for any reason other than, perhaps, issues of proximity which are generic to any system. You’re arguing straw men.
June 30th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
I guess I should have believed Woody when he told me it was a terrible idea to have Hillary Clinton concoct a health insurance system. A universal coverage system that relies on the insurance companies will provide the rightwing with a self-fulfilling prophecy of skyrocketing costs, inhumane management, irrational rationing and bloated bureacracies. Of course, Woody seems attracted to the idea because scumbags will continue to pocket large sums of money for adding virtually ZERO value to the system. Problem is, no major Democrat is advocating a truly rational system – although I’ve read statements by both Edwards and Obama that favor single payer but question political feasibility in the near term – but it looks like Hillary will be the first in line when it comes to selling out to the insurance companies. Another “prescription drugs” boondoggle…
June 30th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Woody is a dispassionate conservative.
June 30th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
Reg, I was disagreeing with you on the sole point of Moore’s funnyness. The rest is aimed, with due provocation, at our generous host.
Clearly the film is sparking something resembling a serious, national exchange on a serious subject. Who else, from Ralph Nadar to Rush Limbaugh, could manage that, even if they wanted to?
Hillary did a similar flip sort of flop on the bankrupcy bill; again, I can’t recommend “Maxed Out” strongly enough.
June 30th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Just saw a showing Sicko at the Cumberland in Toronto..art house in chi-chi Yorkville right by a Four Seasons hotel. Spied Dudley Moore enraptuerd by the film and a few Barenaked Ladies.
Absolute masterpiece. Most emotionally resonant thing I’ve seen on a screen since some Journey song was playing in the background. Moore waves his flag well. Anyone with a problem with this film is counterrevolutionary. I am only half joking….
June 30th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
RP – thats pretty good. Anyone who has seen this film…what is it that causes such a lack of solidarity amongst Americans? I used to think it was simply material, btu I think it goes beyond that. Something about Protestant veneration of “work”?
June 30th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
America doesn’t need a “national conversation” that is how the bourgeois dems seduce you with their snake oil. You need to overturn the health care moneychangers.
July 1st, 2007 at 3:41 am
my comment held in moderation Since I think I’m the only health care provider in this group, sorry this was held in moderation.
July 1st, 2007 at 6:23 am
Cummings, you seem to call for the Jesus route. Was it our savior who brough Dudley Moore back from the dead to catch the movie?
July 1st, 2007 at 7:13 am
No….Dudley Moore was in Toronto filming something and I found it humorous to see him in the theatre. I’m no Christian, but Christ was a socialist…
July 1st, 2007 at 7:15 am
GM makes a fine case for single payer.
July 1st, 2007 at 10:07 am
Guys, when 320,000 people in the US die in hospitals of medical malpractice, go easy on your so-called tort reform. There has never been ONE SINGLE case of awarded damages in US history where negligence was not first found to be present. The courts are doing a job of mitigating excessive awards in almost every case. The excessive awards come from you-and-me type juries who get easily inflamed at the specious arguments made by malprcatice defendants. NO NEGLIGENCE, NO AWARDS.
As to the so-called costs of a single payer system, we are already paying far more than its cost now according to the GAO and not getting it. Each instance of the flaws in other single-payer systems abroad is no systemic but subject to reform.
July 1st, 2007 at 11:12 am
“Why is Walter Reed being praised by reg”
Pointless note at the end of a long thread – Woody misread that comment. I was pointing out that Walter Reed ISN’T part of the VA hospital system – which system I was, in fact, praising.
July 1st, 2007 at 11:46 am
Shit I didn’t realize Dudley Moore was dead. I swear I thought I saw him, since there were a lot of other high society celebrities as there is wont to be at the Cumberland since it is adjacent to the finest hotel in Canada. I did notice a few Barenaked Ladies, who I think are big in the States. I also saw some Canadian “arts” legends.
My point was that it was ironic and humorous to see the Moore film in such a huaghty atmosphere – though I always pick an arthouse over a big cineplex with stadium screens that the human eye can’t percieve as a singularity.
July 1st, 2007 at 11:56 am
JC, you also did remember/know that both Marx and Lenin were dead too didn’t you
)
July 1st, 2007 at 12:05 pm
Didn’t they write songs for the Beatles?
July 1st, 2007 at 2:55 pm
ROFL, why yes, they did…
July 2nd, 2007 at 11:31 am
Randy Paul; Woody is a dispassionate conservative.
That’s not exactly correct. I’m very compassionate and generous…but, with my own money and in ways that I see fit. I may only appear dispassionate for liberal causes because I’ve seen what bad results we’ve gotten from their programs (e.g. Great Society). Your claim is like me saying that you’re dispassionate because you don’t give to the Baptist World Missions or the 700 Club.
It’s better to say that I’m a conservative who displays his compassion on a micro rather than a macro level–which is smart.
July 2nd, 2007 at 1:45 pm
And you say I have no sense of humor. Sheesh!
July 2nd, 2007 at 2:09 pm
I’ve seen what bad results we’ve gotten from their programs (e.g. Great Society).
I can’t let that go unanswered.
Medicare has helped millions of senior citizens. Medicaid has helped millions of poor children.
I was a VISTA volunteer in high school and college. I taught several children to read and helped them love learning.
The Truth-in-Lending Act has been a boon in protecting citizens against unscrupulous lenders.
The Civil Rights Act outlawed discrimination in public places.
The Voting Rights Act outlawed poll taxes and literacy tests, essentially putting teeth into the 14th amendment. George W. Bush signed a 25 year exstension of the Voting Rights Act in 2006.
I could go on and on. Reasonable men may dispute the effectiveness of some of the programs, but to simply say that results were “bad” is not borne out by history – and the facts.
July 2nd, 2007 at 2:35 pm
And another thing that is not “bad” at all is sicko..yes, maybe Moore’s best yet. Did anyone else see “a laughable Conspricacy Theroy?” Not even close. He pointed out the current system was embraced by the Nixon and the right, which it was.
I’d also say the fundementaly dishonesty of the Cooper school is evident in this post. No, Moore didn’t soft peddle Hillary’s bungling of issue, he SHOWED the truth, that progressive health care was blunged by the right. While professional lefty types did and said nothing, then blamed the Clintons for political incompetence. Talk about triangulation. Moore hold Clinton’s feet to the fire on her backtrack, as well he should.
July 2nd, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Nardy – for once we agree….it was precisely the opposite of a conspiracy theory.
Whatever your views on Hillarycare, he shows that she sold out.
July 3rd, 2007 at 10:11 am
…and, the war on poverty is fraught with mismanagement and corruption.
I see the S.F. has put in their own form of government health care. Thank the small business owners who are funding this before they have to close.
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:07 pm
“small business owners who are funding this before they have to close”
“business” in sf perpetually threatens to close, yet businesses continue to be very busy in sf.
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:09 pm
expect more moores. demagoguery has been “bery bery good” for cons, and will be bery bery good for dems. that’s simply how civilizations works.
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:14 pm
FYI, “compassionate conservative” was a joke phrase. it was a reflection upon the fact that cons are only passionate in their love of carnage and moral debauchery.
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:19 pm
cons hate liability suits and jury trials because cons don’t trust the judgment of everyday people. cons know it’s more difficult to make “backroom” deals with the jury. cons love to appeal these because the award will be cut to a small percentage of the original jury award.
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:38 pm
“Government can’t operate any more efficiently than private enterprise. ”
huh? of course it *can*.
it’s equally silly to claim that govt is always more just than private operations.
July 3rd, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Compassionate liberals come up with jury awards for millions dollars for a stupid person spilling McDonald’s coffee on herself. After all, the company has insurance.
Pitts serial rants are worse than my comments to the left.
July 3rd, 2007 at 7:12 pm
So you know the political backgrounds of the jurors in that case? Do you think you’re omnipotent?
July 4th, 2007 at 12:23 am
Alan Einthovein! Doggone rlc, I’m recommending you for Mr. Research Detail Extraordinaire! Einthovein was a conservative Milton Friedman ‘Mini Me’ windbag that dazzled the Congresses of the early ’90′s with loads of ‘market based’ gibberish to health care reform. The editorial pages ran so much of his snake oil, that I thought he had to be the uncle of HARRY & LOUISE. Great job, Richard!
An earlier point I made provoked a rebuttal from Woody and a couple others. It was that bit about every business would need to pay their fair cut on health premiums…I stated it a bit bluntly for brevity’s sake. However, US businesses that don’t pay anything for health care, or not enough (think Wal Mart) will have to start ponying up something. If we passed a universal health insurance system tomorrow, there’d have to be some phase in period, almost certainly subsidized to some degree (think rolling back those tax cuts of 2001). But this is part & parcel the remedy to the problem. Getting EVERYONE paying into the system, NO EXCEPTIONS, NO LOOPHOLES. Otherwise, what’s the point? We’ll continue to leak out millions of uninsured, or underinsured in no time flat. Again, an enormous part of the problem is that folks, like Woody, have employers paying too much to cover Woody, and so many others.
July 4th, 2007 at 12:33 am
“Compassionate liberals come up with jury awards for millions dollars for a stupid person spilling McDonald’s coffee on herself.”
That person might indeed have been stupid, or simply in a hurry. McDonald’s is a ‘fast food’ restuarant. But that person who got the multi-million dollar settlement, was also the 185th or so person burned and HOSPITALIZED by McDonald’s coffee. McDonald’s was warned repeatedly by AG’s in dozens of states before that suit forced the food chain to put warnings on their coffee products.
July 4th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Just saw SiCKO – terrific. Great agitprop and even the Cuba stuff was well-handled as on the basic level of the patients and the Cuban health care providers. Also the bit with the Cuban firefighters was quite moving and didn’t appear staged or hokey. He doesn’t solve all health care questions in two hours, but its hard to imagine anybody who doesn’t walk away and want better answers than we’ve been getting.
July 4th, 2007 at 8:28 pm
It’s gotten so that you can’t tell Democrats from a socialist dictator.
Chávez threatens private healthcare
July 4th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Re-try:
Healthcare – Democrat or Dictator?
July 4th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
Social Security – Democrat or Dictator ?
http://tinyurl.com/2vyl6d
July 5th, 2007 at 7:13 am
Giving people choices on retirement rather than forcing them at a point of a gun is not being a dictatorial government.
Here’s about government force and healthcare.
Live and Let Live
July 5th, 2007 at 9:57 am
Perhaps it would be interesting to open this up a bit more… it’s very nice that our host here admits his “declaired bias” against Micheal Moore. No doubt, what we read in print often carries debilitating bias not so honestly declared. But the central question is still begged…. Why doesn’t Marc Cooper quit his job and go do something he’s good at?
At the very least, might Cooper not let us in on the of his bias? Professional jealousy seems a logical guess, but we don’t really know. Does he have a grudge against people who wear baseball caps? Some old beef against anyone from Michigan?
As The Daily Howler points out today, “Sicko” is a socail arguement, it’s anecdotal evidence begs be to be illuminated or challenged by people knowledgable in the field. Or at least , one would hope, sized up thoughtfuly.
Instead Cooper writes a worthless dismisal which he trys to salvage by telling us he just doesn’t like Moore. Is this really the best the Nation, The L.A. Weekly, and The Huffington Post can do? Do I have to love John Wayne to notice that Stagecoach is a great movie?
July 5th, 2007 at 10:30 am
A personal bias can simply be an individual’s impression about someone based upon previous experiences–often unfavorable. There’s nothing wrong with that, and such thought processes can protect us or simply save us more time of analysis.
Does anyone have a bias against the Ku Klux Klan? Why? Do you have a good reason without it having to be stated if you discuss that group?
I know that many of you have a bias against Karl Rove and Ann Coulter. Is your biased based upon previous perceptions or jealousy?
Marc’s bias against Michael Moore, while I can’t speak for Marc, is probably based upon knowing that Moore grossly misrepresents what he says is the truth. I don’t think there is any professional jealousy of a liar.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
What the hell is wrong with the Democratic candidates on this issue? The momentum for real change is building like gangbusters and they think they can just tinker with the existing for-profit model, or even worse, think mandating coverage for all is the answer. Obama (who has the best proposal) wants get rid of denying based on pre-existing conditions, which sounds good but would have the effect of just sending costs for everyone else even higher – without ending the litany of complaints even those with insurance must endure.
Sicko’s strength was its clarity of analysis of the root of the problem (profit). If Cuba can get results on par with the US on 1/20th of the budget (and under an embargo), I think the case for a radical overhaul is clear as can possibly be; That was the powerful point of that segment. Cuba is proof that one can achieve first world health indicators without a lot of money and without all the fancy new pharmactecals US drug companies push on people. All it takes is a will to make health care a priority for all (which goes beyond even just free and universal care… it entails making doctors accessible to the public by making house calls, checking up on patients, etc.)
July 5th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
Woody… you
are right in that Cooper is taking the Fox News approach to journalism, and mere adding the “bias” disclaimer. Take him..he’s yours! This “there’s no such thing as objectivity” bit is rather embarrassing stance for a supposedly serious journalist to take. If a Klansman cooked me a really good hamburger, I think I could say “this is a really good hamburger, cooked by a jerk who’s politics are fairly close to Woody’s.” Such distictions can be made.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
I for one am sick of every “left” writer, not to mention mainstream liberals, but The Nation, etc. – having to do – even on a cover story on Moore in a magazine on which he sits on the editorial borad – have to redbait Moore about Cuba.
These same critics aren’t gonna talk about the midsdeeds of France, Britain or Canada. I am truly shocked that the Nation magazine, which Moore pushes, was so disrespectful. Hayes writes against “the vanguard of marxism.” Truth be told though, Moore has a strong Marxist strain, or why would he visit the old Mole’s grave in a key short scene in England? Why would he use swelling emancipatory music in Cuba?
The redbaiters are right, and this is what scares them….Afte F911 in which even Arthur Schlesinger jr. could sit and enjoy, it doesn’t sit well with said liberals to see an explicitly socialist film.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
leftside, there’s an old aphorism; If you want to know how something really works, try and change it. Consider the winners – widely distributed and loosely coupled, as compared to the losers – tightly aligned and highly organized. Then, consider which of them is in the better position to exert pressure, particularly $$$ pressure. I say to myself, welcome to the politics of special/narrow interests. It would take the same level of *shrill* to move the candidates on this issue, as it took for the whipped-into-a-frenzy ‘populace’ to torpedo immigration reform. As long as all of the candidates hang roughly together, none of them will be exposed. Safety in the herd as it t’were. One of them will be nominated. It would take a fairly detailed proposed plan so the average voter could figure out how a major change in health care would effect them personally, for any health care innovation (and the candidate sponsoring it) to get real traction. I doubt any of the current front runners are willing to stick their necks out; too risky. It might work for a tail-ender to flesh one out and make a run for it, figuring they’ve got nothing to lose. I suspect it’s too early in the game for that. But, that’s only my take on it.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
K Nardy, the politics of Democratic Kleagal and Senator Robert Byrd are like yours–not mine. Your analogy is flawed, but you can eat all that you want at Klan restaurants, witht them all decked out in Confederate battle flags and the meat grilled on buring crosses and those sheets used as cute waiter uniforms–none of which would bother you as long as the food was good. Does the K in your name stand for Knight?
On Cooper, he expresses his views, as he should, even though he is wrong most of the time. In expressing his views, he could be compared to more to CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, and the NYT. However, it’s not Marc’s role to simply report facts, whereas that should be the duties of mass media which doesn’t.
Do you have professional jealousy of Marc?
July 6th, 2007 at 6:58 am
Terrorism and national health care together…
July 6th, 2007 at 6:59 am
Nuts, another blocked comment. Here it is again, modified enough, perhaps, to post.
Terrorism and national health care together…
“The fact that the Al Qaeda plot to detonate car bombs in London and Glasgow was carried out by doctors working for the National Health Service has shocked the British public far more than the fact that they were Muslims.
The NHS is the nearest thing to a religion that the British now have. For half a century the British have convinced themselves that the NHS is the envy of the world. It is — for the third world. And it is the third world’s doctors and nurses who keep alive this socialist cult of security from cradle to grave.”
July 6th, 2007 at 7:01 am
Oh, well. I tried two other times to post an article about the “health care terrorists” working for Britain’s National Health Service. Good job of screening.
July 7th, 2007 at 7:10 am
Speaking of cult of security – why do Americans subcontract security work to private firms?
July 11th, 2007 at 6:21 am
Woody, as if you don’t know, the dixiecrats Byrd was then a part of are all in your party now. But nice try at changing the subject.
I not professionaly jelous of Marc Cooper because I’m not a journalist. If I could make a living doing a lazy job, I might be. But Cooper is in the same profession, coming from basicly the same political take, so it makes his bile suspect. He’s hardly alone, I would add, on the left on this matter.
Moore is rather brillently using the Fox News tactics on CNN, who did a sloppy hit piece on him ( I’m the equal time, I don’t have to be objective) to generate still more interest in his film. I still gringe when I hear someone peddle this jive, though it’s almost always from the right.
As an idiot who likes journalism at it’s stupidest (OReilly: “Why does it drive them crazy that you’re a little more conservative than Sean Penn?”) you shouldn’t really be expected to grasp any of this.
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