Ni Chicha -- Ni Limona'
Ni chicha, ni limonada. Neither hard cider nor lemonade
is a long-time Chilean idiom popularized by martyred folk singer Victor Jara to describe something caught in the soft middle.
It might also describe the dilemma facing Latin American countries nowadays, precisely places like Chile.
From Santiago comes reports that at least 750 people were arrested on Thursday as police used water cannons and tear gas to break up massive anti-government demonstrations.
This isn't supposed to be happening in Chile. After all, the incumbent center-left government is led by the Socialists (my old party) and the protests were led by the central labor confederation. (where during the Allende days I would spend night a week as a volunteer guard). This sort of confrontation, some might suppose, should be a bygone of the days of the Pinochet dictatorship.
Shoulda been -- but ain't. The governing coalition in Chile, now presided over by Michelle Bachelet, might call itself Socialist but, in fact, relies on conservative free-market policies inherited in grand part from the dictatorship. The result has been admirable growth, modernization, a burgeoning consumerism, easy credit, accelerated enrichment of the upper middle class and the oligarchs, but at the cost of yawning social inequality. Ten percent of the Chilean population holds about 50% of the wealth.
Crackling social tensions always are palpable immediately below the surface of everyday Chilean life. For those of us who know the country it comes as no surprise at all that a routine demonstration can quickly degenerate into a full-scale donnybrook replete with mass arrests, gunfire and looting.
All but a microcosm of the greater challenges faced on a more regional level. The Chilean model, on one extreme, has some very healthy macro-economic indicators on the plus side of the ledger. And all of the shame of a disenfranchised bottom half of the population to show on the negative side.
On the other extreme we find a Venezuelan model which offers massive hand-outs financed by record oil prices. But at the cost of no real long-term development strategy along with the added aggravant of an erosion of democratic institutions (which, while imperfect, are nevertheless much stronger in Chile).
There are no easy answers -- either of the utopian or of the more pragmatic variety. Today's news helps prove it.
August 31st, 2007 at 1:55 am
Chile is among the most unequal countries in the world, worse than Bolivia and tied with a bunch of African countries. For anyone who speaks Spanish here are a few Political Ironies to Cry About videos (try not to smirk).
Irony 1
Irony 2
Anyway, about Wednesday, it’s good to see the limits of Chilean democracy being tested. Really depressing to see the president rule out demonstrations. In her words, “violence”. Her alternative: “dialog”…with a committee comprised in part of members of Pinochet’s ol’ party. (Although some of those guys came out in favor of the protesters, they would, wouldn’t they) Yes, violence came from some of the demonstrators, but high-powered water canons laced with skin irritant pummeling the non-violent - nothing new, like you say, but at least during the student protests Bachelet apologized and decried police violence, now it’s 180 degrees, Chileans are told there are “limits to Democracy”. I speculate her benevolence during the student protests was more a reflection of the protracted, int’l nature of the news and popular domestic sentiment…I think she’s cynical.
Also, Wednesday’s protests directly addressed Chile’s neo-liberal policies, which is sketchy territory considering businesses are sacred cows and it’s amazing the fancy footwork many politicians on both sides do not to hint at real consequences for the miserable conditions they subject their workers to. This recent “Ethical Wage” debate the gov’t is throwing is a farce it’s not surprising that people aren’t buying it. Wednesday’s protest is part of an accelerating number of mobilizations and strikes, it’s actually a really exciting time for Chile, although I’m really glad not to be Chilean. Like you say there are no easy answers, it takes a month for me to get broadband installed here and Chileans are seeking to divert the distribution of wealth in a booming export economy.
No easy answers, economic reform takes time. The PROBLEM is that there’s absolutely no willingness to change the system, imho, and as you’ll see in Irony 2, Lagos drove up inequality to record levels, despite having won the socialist vote, and the communist contingent actually tipped the balance. So it’s total betrayal, really.
Sure Chilean democratic institutions are better than Venezuela, but “imperfect” is an understatement. 80% of Chileans are barely scraping by, and the majority have consistently elected socialists who would represent them if only it weren’t for this persistent obligation to continue the legacy of Pinochet.
It’s fine that there are no easy answers, but it hardly seems the questions are honestly being asked to begin with, at least not by this “representative” government. So the only answer is to strike and protest and cause a commotion, and that’s when Bachelet cracks down hard. Like I said, exciting time for Chile.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:39 am
Cooper, you really have no clue, do you. In Chile, repression is directed against the working class on behalf of the classes that overthrew Allende. I watched Patricio Guzman’s 2004 documentary “Salvador Allende” last night and was struck by how similar the anti-government protests in Chile in 1971 were to those that keep taking place in Venezuela. If Chavez were as willing to put up with these howling anti-Communist mobs, he’d end up just like Allende, with half his skull blown off. It is remarkable that you can’t get a handle on counter-revolution. I guess that’s what happens as your paycheck from the bourgeois media expands over the years. You tend to think like the people who pay you.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:46 am
Yesterday on NPR or The World, they had an interview with The Guardian’s correspondent in Santiago.
Apparently one of the big issues is the crappy minimum wage (about $300/month) and the crappy public education system. Those making the minimum wage can’t send their kids to decent schools.
Thus far Bachelet has been a bit of a disaster.
August 31st, 2007 at 8:32 am
MOokie.. how wonderful the Internet is! How very special for me! Here I am, some poor schmuck who used to work for Salvador Allende, and now I get to actually meet an an anonymous poster who has actually seen a whole movie about him (and made by a director I have know for 30 years)! And yet this anonymous someone is also willing to teach me so much too. What luck! What a find! What insight I am granted from your measured words!
Now, please go get bent. Thank you.
August 31st, 2007 at 9:46 am
Mookie: You (Marc) tend to think like the people who pay you.
Mook, are you suggesting the CIA? (Oops, I hope that don’t get into trouble for leaking that.) I have to believe that Mookie is putting us on.
Besides Evita, I learned all that I need to know about South America from watching Xuxa, including this important lesson.
August 31st, 2007 at 9:47 am
As usual, Marc is at his best when he writes about Chile.
As for anything else he writes about Latin America, well, you might wanna try plugging your nose.
August 31st, 2007 at 9:59 am
Marc, when you try so hard to connect Venezuela (ie. Cuba) to every topic in Latin America, you must forgive people for feeling you share the same base concerns of the media and political elite in the US. That is, no matter the difficulty of the market friendly “good” left to solve any of the problems of the poor, at least they are better than the slightly less reverential (to the market) bad left.
The trouble elites are having is that Venezuela and Argentina, those 2 countries who have become “less friendly to the market” according to the Heritage Foundation and WSJ - are precisely those who are growing the fastest and reducing poverty the most. Chile, on the other hand, is registering far more modest growth (less than half) and doing nothing on poverty or job growth. Unbelievably, Venezuela’s unemployment rate is lower than Chile’s now. The minimum wage has been doubled, approaching that of Chile’s (despite a much more expensive economy), and poverty has ben reduced from 55% to 31% in just 3 years (excluding all the free health care and social programs the poor benefit from as well).
But alas, none of that matters because Venezuela is repressive, right? Well one might compare the 750 arrestees (of only a few thousands protesters) and the bludgeoned head of a Chilean Senator and poet versus the couple dozen or so arrested by Venezualan authorities after a just as violent protests by tens of thousands of equally pissed students (because they have to buy cable now to watch their favorite game shows and novellas) a few months ago.
Bachelet’s handling of the crisis is even more maddening. She had the gall to say “I wil not accept questioning of my work on social justice.” Then she went on to propose truly populist (”subisidies for all”), “short term” measures to address the concerns.
August 31st, 2007 at 10:04 am
The similiarities between the economic situation in Chile and that in the US are striking - the only difference being the reaction of the citizenry. Of course the “Free Market Miracle” that the “Chicago Boys” (see economics - UC style) designed for Chile was only possible because of Pinochet and the coup. No popularly elected government - Anywhere - would adopt those measures. If you’re a Wall Street Banker or City investor then Chile is a Latin model with a 6 plus per cent yearly growth rate among the best in Latin America (and, for all his bluster, Chavez has followed a neoliberal trade policy that makes his country a darling of the same set. If you’re talking about investments Venezuela beats Brazil or Mexico among the set that reads INSTITUTIONAL INVESTOR).
Course the Chilean model shows what happens when you “Reform” pension plans by privatizing them and letting the individual make their own investment choices. That is one of the grievences there - the magic of the market wiping out a lot savings.
I can’t say why Bachelet is following these policies but I’d bet there is a lot of residual fear of the Army stepping in again. Particularly given the crowd now in power in Washington.
We all know how strategic Chile is. Kissinger called it a dagger aimed at the heart of Antarctica! Course he was only too happy to meddle there. Just finished “Legacy of Ashes” - the secret history of the CIA and am now reading Richard Helms’ autobiography “A look Over My Shoulder.” Helms writes that those looking for the smoking gun will be disappointed as nothing was put in writing. And for those who see the Company as a rogue agency there’s this. The analysts were all against it but Nixon and Henry the K insisted. Nothing gets done without the executive signing off. But anyone who has been looking at Iraq already knows that.
August 31st, 2007 at 10:20 am
Hey why didn’t you publish my comment?
August 31st, 2007 at 10:20 am
Woody,
I guess I also have to teach you about current events in South America, Xuxa is ok but so yesterday, you really need to stay “a breast†of current events in South America especially with what is happening in Argentina.
**********************************
Political Activist Doris Mar was recently deported back to Argentina for overstaying her work visa, I have offered to help Doris Mar return to the United States by marrying her. I am the type of individual who will make this type of sacrifice to help my fellow human being. See her story and much more on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llzfwwtXFi0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BffomgBrfgE
August 31st, 2007 at 10:28 am
Correction in my post above: Venezuela’s minimum wage ($200) now is higher than that of Chile’s ($145). Half of Chilean workers make the minimum wage. Experts say you need at least $1000 a month to live comfortably in the major cities.
An amazing thing happening in Chile is the first ever take-over of a foreign owned mine - at El Penon. Subcontracted workers are following the radical strike actions at the state-owned CODELCO copper mine, which resulted in an agreement brokered by the Church. Like at CODELCO, the El Pinon workers are refusing to be represented by the labor contracting company that hires them. They want direct talks.
August 31st, 2007 at 11:12 am
Leftside you’re wrong. Chilean minimum wage is 144,000 pesos/month, which as of today is US $275.
Important, however, to remember that a lot of workers aren’t contracted, and according to an Economist article I recently read Chile has 27% poverty according to European standards (according to Chilean standards 13.7% but that’s assuming that if you make more than 90 bucks a month you’re not poor).
The mine take-over is exciting, it’s also another challenge to subcontracting workers which is a big Pinochet constitutional scam that nearly two decades of “socialism” just hasn’t gotten around to striking off the books.
August 31st, 2007 at 11:38 am
Leftside -
>>>poverty has been reduced from 55% to 31% in just 3 years
Impressive, but you gotta tell us what the poverty line is in Venezuela. (I honestly don’t know). Chile’s poverty reduction statistics are also impressive until you look at the US $90/month poverty line (or US $60/month if you live in rural areas).
I’m not gonna sit here and defend Chavez’ populism, or pretend like he’s doing great things for Venezuela, or in an intelligent way. When I lived in Spain I had Venezuelan friends who had had their businesses shut down by a regional Chavista governor, because of political differences.
I do commend you for pointing out Bachelet’s populism. She is absolutely shameless, but gets less attention, for a variety of reasons i think.
One story that I don’t know if it made it in the US was the Toronto police “brutalizing” Chile’s FIFA U-20 soccer players (when in fact it turned out that the teammembers had punched a female officer in the face, destroyed thousands of dollars worth of property, attacked other officers, etc). But anyway, Bachelet immediately called it “unjustified aggression” on the part of the police, because she had popular domestic sentiment behind her. Other politicians jumped on the bandwagon and were calling Canadians racist, a member of Pinochet’s party called for implementing “human rights” clauses in all future free trade agreements with Canada.
Ha!
All this is petty shit, I know, but a really good example of Bachelet’s double standards, opportunism, populism, cynicism, whatever you wanna call it. “Unjustified Aggression” on one end, “limits to democracy” on the other.
Interesting how she can get away with that, though, without jeopardizing the FTA - Canada’s Barrick Gold (Pascua Lama). They don’t care, they just want Chilean gold. Also pretty hard to make the case that businesses will flee if wages are raised, Chile’s got niche resources and tons of them.
August 31st, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Chileno, I couldn’t find the dollar figure for Venezuela’s povery line. But it is based on the standard “food basket” model. Whether it is adequate enough to live is a fair question. But I would argue the drastic drop in total percent of Venezuelan households under the line is highly significant, and much greater than Chile’s, no matter what methodology.
Using CIA data, Chile has reduced poverty from 22% to 18.2% from 1998-2005. During the same period, Venezuela has reduced poverty from 67% to 37.9 (as of 2006, the figure is 30.1%). I already mentioned how, in dollar terms, the Venezuelan minimum wage is worth more now than Chile’s - or anyone else’s in the region - after successive hikes under Chavez.
August 31st, 2007 at 12:26 pm
My penultimate comment is still “awaiting moderation”…kinda annoying… that’s the one where I call Leftside you out on erroneous minimum wage figures - in Chile it’s US $275, not US$145.
Anyway, the “food basket” model sounds like what Chile uses as well — 2x the minimum nutritional/caloric intake, nothing that any government should be proud of, it’s inhuman. Anyway, your numbers are outdated in Chile it’s 13.7% right now, marking the biggest 3-year drop or some such yada yada. I can’t get excited about Chile’s, or Venezuela’s reductions in poverty. In Chile, the government goes to great lengths to proclaim this “good news” when sure, it’s progress, but to say that you’ve escape poverty when you’re making US $95/month. That demonstrates nothing less than hatred of the poor. I imagine it’s more or less the same with Chavez.
August 31st, 2007 at 12:28 pm
I hear Chile has some hot men!
August 31st, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Oh you naughty, naughty Boy!
August 31st, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Where’d you hear that? Chilean men don’t have that fame. Neither do the women, really. Although, Mr. Craig, Santiago is totally gay, and it’s totally repressed, so you might find it interesting.
August 31st, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Chileno, my $145 Chile minimum wage number is from last week’s Santiago Times. What about yours?
I see 2006 figures indicate that indeed poverty in Chile fell quite a bit in the last year. But it’s still nowhwere near the drop Venezuela has seen…
I agree with your point about poverty figures sometimes being misleading, though in Venezuela you must also take into account the case figures do not count all the subsidies and social benefits many poor receive (discounted food, free health care, subsidized transport and gas, cheaper education, etc.)
August 31st, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Chileno, I might also try addressing directly your excellent first comment while we’re here. These do appear to be exciting times in Chile - and most of Latin America. Too bad, after all we’ve been through, the US streets have been so quiet for 2-3 years. All emotion poured into a media and political system that allows NO basic question of Market-State relations… that seems to be the implicit agreement with the Chile as well.
The fact that a lot of Bachelet’s own Socialist party actively supported the protests and strikes is a sign of her weakness. She seems already to be moving left, the result of the wosening mood and showing in the streets.
My brother lived in Chile for a year and it always seemed to me to reflect a Latin version of the US - a fine place for some, but rife with the class resentment, racial bigotry, crass bottom line commercialization, male-domination, etc. Something seemed deeply off…
I think Chile, like a lot of states, is reaching the limits of the capitalist dominated system. People see even in the best of economic times, progress remains too slow. They also sense something deeper wrong with the domination of money and profit. Breaking through those imposed limits often involves the streets, despite what Bachelet says about the perfecton of Chile’s democratic system,
August 31st, 2007 at 9:43 pm
I wonder by which model of democracy anyone would consider Chile’s “democratic institutions” superior to those of Venezuela’s - and what I’m sincerely asking for is not a critique of Venezuela, but an ideal model by which one measures this sort of thing. Democratic theory differs widely between representative and participatory, formal and praxis, etc. and I raelly would like to know what, in reality, is the model that people are getting at when they describe a repressive capitalist’s coutnries institutions as democratic.
August 31st, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Leftside,
According to this article in Brazil - http://tinyurl.com/39n9u4 - , the minimum wage in Chile is listed at R$540 (540 reais) which is about US$275. Google minimum wage Chile and you’ll find athat in 1998 - according to ChipSites (the same people as the Santiago Times that the minimum wage was $185 in 1998. Given the essentially universal weakness of the dollar, it beggars logic that the minimum wage would have declined against the US dollar since 1998.
August 31st, 2007 at 10:51 pm
Also, The Valapariaso Times lists the minimu wage at 144,000 pesos. Convert that to US$ and you get about $275.
August 31st, 2007 at 10:58 pm
Sez Leftside (who I believe has never set foot in Chile): “I think Chile, like a lot of states, is reaching the limits of the capitalist dominated system. People see even in the best of economic times, progress remains too slow. They also sense something deeper wrong with the domination of money and profit. Breaking through those imposed limits often involves the streets, despite what Bachelet says about the perfecton of Chile’s democratic system.”
Oh yes, leftside. For sure. The anti-capitalist parties in Chile now get about 4% of the vote. Victory is near.
I know it because I know you can so sense what the people sense!
The truth is that capitalism has never worked for overwhelming majorities of the global population. By comparison with most places in the world, Chilean capitalism (with all of its gross inequities) works reasonably well. That’s no defense of the system. But one should note that the failures of the capitalist economic system in no way guarantees that even its victims will oppose it, let alone change or overthrow it.
One (minor) reason for that is the gross failure of what — to date– has called itself socialism or communism. If you think that any substantial number of Chileans, even those living in the ramshackle callampas that ring the capital, would willingly trade their lot for that of the Cubans, then you’re really in la-la land.
Now, back to your wanking.
P.S. Oh yes, Cummings, tut-tut per the usual. I take back what I said. Venezuela is a fine democratic model: replete with rampant nepotism at the level of regional government, rampant corruption, a bully president who can legislate by decree, a stacked Supreme Courts, a tampered-with media, and a congress which votes 100% with the president who has just removed all terms limits. How silly of me. I’m sure Venezuela is also superior to the phony Canadian democracy as well. How double silly of me.
And of course, Venezuela could never be described as a “repressive capitalist country” like Chile because, after all, President Chavez has decreed its capitalist economy to be socialist and its very bourgeois army and police are, in fact, nothing but the armed and righteous vanguard of the workers. Clearly.
Further, who are we in any case to be so presumptuous to understand what democracy means in any case? How could we possible define it or even try to set standards when, obviously, it so much more convenient to approach the issue as purely situational. Indeed, this whole exchange might be merely a dream. I’d call Alan Sokol to confirm it but I’m not sure I have the moral authority to say he really exists.
August 31st, 2007 at 11:05 pm
P.S. Oh yes, Randy, make sure you also take into consideration the non-reality of the poverty levels in Venezuela due to all of the above-mentioned social subsidies. Of course, none of that social wage exists anywhere else in the world, there are, you see NO state subsidies in either Chile or the U.S. (no school lunch program, no subsidized public transportation, no tax breaks, no child health program, no subsidized education etc etc because we live in a repressive capitalist society and not in 21st Century Socialism). So while our poverty levels are real and dire and probably understated, that of Venezuela’s is somewhat illusory and most certainly overstated by the capitalist MSM. In fact, by the time I’m finished writing this, Hugo might have already decreed the abolition of poverty!
FOR THE RECORD:
Here’s what I wrote about Bachelet upon her inauguration:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/bachelet_si_y_no_20060116/
I don’t know here but I knew her deceased father, Air Force Brigadier General Alberto Bachelet. He served as a minister in Salvador Allende’s cabinet and demonstrated extraordinary courage in doing so. After the 1973 coup he was arrested, imprisoned, and died as a result of prolonged torture.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:40 am
As Joni Mitchell sang: “Marc gets shit from both sides now.”
September 1st, 2007 at 9:34 am
Marc your comments are somewhat confusing. Am I expecting a socialist revolution in the near term - or even the long term for that matter? No. But there is capitalism and there is capitalism. Ours is closer to Chile’s and less like Germany or France. The Chilean model - courtesy of the “Chicago Boys” (The economic thinkers and social scientists of the University of Chicago and their allies at places like UCLA) was only possibly introduced there thanks to a military junta. In fact for “Free Markets” you needed an unfree people. I suspect the unrest there comes in part from an electorate that thought it was going to go back to what it had and discovered that the “Socialists” have bought into Freidman’s “Flat Earth” globalism and TINA (the late Daniel Singer’s “There is no Alternative” as the answer for any changes to Reagan and Thatcher policies)
Why people are so silent here in the face of economic evidence that the great middle has seen their income and quality of life stagnate for over twenty years with the prospects growing worse - there is now more social mobility in Europe than in the US - is something that needs to be looked at but not here and not now. I haven’t got the time - maybe later. But I think it starts with our famed “Individualism”. People are told they live in the best of all possible worlds and that the economy is doing fine. Well if its great and I’m suffering then it must be my fault. In Europe the attitude, as far as I can see it is different. There society gets more credit or blame.
But it is strikinbg that whether we’re talking about stolen elections (see 2000 and the Court) or massive economic dislocations - see the deindustrialization of America - the attitude of most is to meekly go along.
But in South America things seem different. There seems to be a popular uprising against the way things are in Chile, in Argentina, in Bolivia and, yes, in Venezuela. Some good and some not so good. And people like Bachelet and Lula who are timid are getting an earful. And people like AMLO and his millions are refusing to accept Calderon’s claims of legitimacy forcing him to compromise with the PRI - lets see how long that lets him claim to be a reforming President before he becomes Fox redux.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:21 pm
I’m a Chilean- born man, and the gringas tell me I’m hot.
Sen. Larry Craig, take a number, buenmozo.
Marc, gracias again, “hueon”! I love it when you write about Chile and its rapacious capitalist ” miracles” as we both “enjoyed” 1971- 73 in between our L.A. residencies. I’m the one that has to deal with many chileno relatives still being momios, so your writing helps remind me why I stayed here in the City of Angels (and sometimes too many argentinos.)
September 1st, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Fact is, Chile controls the world’s largest copper and lithium (as in cell phone and computer batteries) reserves. Next time, you use a cell phone or computer. think about that.
With a dose of its entrepreneurial spirit and cold weather feistiness, Chile ain’t getting any poorer, folks. I compare the recent social unrest (which I approve of) to workers fighting for their rights in late 19th century and early 20th century US. That turned out well, until Reagan screwed US workers. I have some hope for those huevones in Chile, unless a Chilean Reagan turns up.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:30 pm
Marc,
You’re right I forgot. I expect Justin Delacour to call us “hacks” at any moment now.
You forgot, by the way, Marc: Leftside is a revolutionary!
September 1st, 2007 at 3:54 pm
A revolutionary with full dental and great credit, I’m sure.
September 1st, 2007 at 3:58 pm
By the way, here’s a link to Jonathan Franklin’s report that I mentioned earlier. franklin is The Guardian’s correspondent in Santiago.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Bob.. dont know about leftside’s insurance/credit status… but I do know this: he’s free to read whatever he wants without threat of arrest; likewise he can publish whatever he likes even if it’s on the Internet to which he has an unfettered and unfiltered connection; he can buy whatever books he wants without threat of a)them not being in the bookstore nor his purchase being reported to the political police; he also has the right to assemble and protest, even to fancy himself a revolutionary without imprisonment. If he is charged with a criminal offense he has the right to bail, the right to defense counsel (even if he can’t pay) and the right to appeal to at least a theoretically higher court to appeal if convicted. While under pressure for sure. the Bill of Rights are still in force. Of course these are simple and hollow bourgeois freedoms which really arent necessary in the lives of hungry and oppressed third world inhabitants. A handout of food and a free flu shot ought to be enough to make them grateful. Top it off with a weekly four hour speech from El Lider and what more could u possibly ask for?
September 1st, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Marc:
My days of deep political philosophy are behind me. My idea of socialismo is: Being hollered at by to armbanded punks with megaphones. The first tells me what to do and the second tells me how much I love it.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:47 pm
two (2) that is
September 1st, 2007 at 4:52 pm
I was asking a sincere question. What makes Chile’s institutions more democratic than Venezuela’s? The answer is probably that the system hews closely to the separation of power style US model but I’m stil lnot sure what Marc is getting at with this description… I was not getting at any Sokal type bullshit, but sincerely asking a question in regards to ideal models.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Futher, I wasn’t claiming Canada was repressive, or that Venezuela was perfect, and perhaps my use of language, after some wine no doubt - was inexact - repressive capitalist country was the wrong phrase - and also, scratch Venezuela. I’m simply trying to tease out what the host here thinks is an optimal democracy - is it institutions? redistribution? formal suffrage? respect for various forms of rights? regulation of capital?
September 1st, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Cooper: “Of course these are simple and hollow bourgeois freedoms which really arent necessary in the lives of hungry and oppressed third world inhabitants.”
Didn’t Albert Shanker say something like this when he visited Nicaragua in 1986 with a National Endowment for Democracy delegation? Weren’t you Shanker’s roommate on that delegation, Cooper? I think I saw the two of you drinking Chivas Regal and eating oysters at the Intercontinental Hotel.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:34 pm
That’s right Mookie. And didn’t you also see me meeting clandestinely with Oliver North? And doesnt the NED secretly pay my mortgage.
U’ll now have to change IP’s because Im going impose upon you the RCTV solution: shutting you down. In ay case, it’s amazing they let folks like you teach actual young people. Bye/
To Jcummings:You’re kidding, right? You are asking me to be kind enough to sit down and write a discourse here on what the metrics of democracy are? You must think Im living in Canada where’s there’s some kind of state dole that supports such idleness! I’m too old/too lazy/too bored to engage in such wanking. Im gonna take the easy way out and stand by my earlier unscientific, unscientific, non peer-reviewed statement that Chile is indeed more democratic than Venezuela. It’s sort of like abstract art: I can’t explain it. I just know what it is when I see it. Ill leave the political philosophizing to you.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:39 pm
Irony: They teach it in freshman comp
September 1st, 2007 at 5:40 pm
that was for mookster
September 1st, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Marc, this is disappointing. Excellent questions and comments are posed by rlc, jcummings, etc., and you spend your time taking silly potshots at “revolutionaries”. Must this always devolve into silly left in-fighting? I checked back on this blog several times hoping to find some insightful discussion on Chile, and instead I find pettiness. Can we ignore the “leftsides” and resist the temptation to make kiddie comments, por favor? It’s irritating, honestly.
September 1st, 2007 at 6:32 pm
I’m not on any state dole, not that there’s a problem with that.
September 1st, 2007 at 7:21 pm
Samuel: If you are interested in what I have to say about Chile may I humbly suggest you buy my book on the subject. I think my views on all of the above posts are well reflected in that small volume.
Surprising as it might seem, I try to keep this blog as a form of entertainment for me. Otherwise, unfortunately, I have gotten into the habit of accepting payment for writing. So as worthy (or not) as some of the commenters’ queries and challenges may be, I feel no compunction or obligation to answer them, or — on occasion– even notice them. I’m sure you will understand.
September 1st, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Suggested compromise: take it out of the library.
September 1st, 2007 at 8:22 pm
This is your Idaho potato picking boy again, big bad ass NRA single shot in the ass-undercover Peter Pan look alike prancing and running around the State Capital in high heel stripper shoes with a pink Brazillian thong up my crack but I’m always nicely shaved at the nut sack, “what do you think about that?”
Now that I have resigned and left my smelly ass leather seat to the next hypocrite Republican jackass (Woody or GM Roper), I can freely say that I can now leave my part-time wife, my sorry ass adopted kids, and telephone my favorite Washington hoe, Mike Jones-(aka, The HULK).
Feeling quilty, on Sundays, I can stand in line behind Bush and Cheney waiting my turn to confess my most inner horny sins with a man next to my sweet tender masturbating heart, Ted Haggard.
Back in my college years, the frat brothers from Delta Chi failed to notice that I had a really bad habit of eye balling their big chorizos while involved in a midnight freindly shower naked towel fight.
At the time of my arrest, too bad I couldn’t get a long distance collect call to my favorite coco-nut sell out undercover latino lover living the “la vida loca” and the “Amercian dream.”
If big frog eye-glass wearing lying sack of burrito dogshit, Al Gonzo, was able to legally sit in front of Congress, lie, and save baby Stalin Bush from impeachment, provided free long distance wire taps, illegal spying on American citizens, and out non-supportive Republican Judges- shit, big Gonzo can get me a federal protection order to freely travel around the U.S. and allowed to stop at every mini-gas station to masturbate to my little heart desire.
One thing I failed to tell that hot copper that arrested me was that while sitting in that restroom stall spread eagle, I busted a load all over myself on just thinking that I was going to be searched between the butt crack and handcuffed. You cant beat that feeling.
September 1st, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Cummings - What the grad school radicals/theory heads like you fail to see is that all of the social movements that comprise the “anti-globalization movement” are fundamentally pragmatic. Environmental justice advocates in South Africa or union organizers in Columbia are not reading clownish books like “Empire” or setting down to watch Zizek. Instead, they are reacting to their own lived social experience, asking for relatively modest measures to improve their lives.
The conditions of modern neoliberalism have created a new sphere of injustice. One that has not given birth to some sort of global ideological movement. But rather a collection of movements are responding to local injustices. Chavez represents the old model, one that has failed time and time again.
You of course are not only a slave to silly theory, but also a romantic notion of an obsolete form of socialism. You are too self-indulgent to see what Chavez really is. He is your typical populist leader a la Wallace. He has uses the legitimate sentiments of the “blessed unrest” to consolidate power in his crooked hands. As Cooper has argued, he should be a bigger outrage to anyone who actually really gives a shit about justice in the world. When Chavez runs his course, as all crooked tin pot dictators do, he will have undermined the movements for justice in Latin America.
Look man, this is fun for you. I get it. Perhaps you like Chavez for that very reason. You are on the same wavelengths. All of your radical posing probably earns you a pay check or maybe gets you laid, or makes you feel special. But move on and become an ad man. Be real with yourself. Your bullshit politics are actually harming people that are trying to do good in the world. Stop asking silly questions about democracy and listen to some Crunk. Go to some postmodernist blog and argue about the representation in modern hip hop.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:58 pm
>>>That’s no defense of the system. But one should note that the failures of the capitalist economic system in no way guarantee that even its victims will oppose it, let alone change or overthrow it.
I think the polls show that people seeking to oppose capitalism are still way in the minority, but at the same time, according to a Chilean I was talking to about this yesterday, she was telling me that the last two years here have been different. She and everyone else danced in the streets when Bachelet was elected, but according to her this “violent” accumulation of wealth by the oligarchy/UMC is starting to really piss poor people off, because they aren’t getting any of it, and it’s getting worse.
We were talking about the obscenely rich barrio that I live in, too, with multi-storied houses, luxury cars, pedigree dogs, alarm systems…I just noticed my neighbors have put up electric wire to protect their driveway. Ten minutes away is a shantytown whose rooves recently caved in under the weight of snowfall.
Before, people kept their mouths shut for whatever reason. But these past two years have been different. Especially this week. (Marcel Claude describes an “acceleration” of social unrest). My friend laments the fact that it’s a woman president who’s taking the brunt of it, and she and another Chilean I spoke to (my landlord) ascribe the protests to machista culture — it’s easier to throw a fit when it’s mother, and not father, at home. Of course, it’s a very good fit to be throwing, and hopefully one that does not die down when Pinera gets elected.
Anyway, Marc, an awesome article on Bachelet’s victory, the last paragraph was sadly prophetic. I’m still wondering, though, how well-intentioned you think the Concertacion is? You and many others seem to paint a picture of them as being ineffective and slow, not following through on their promises despite (at least this is my interpretation of how they’re being characterized) their best intentions. Could all be true. Proof of their “best intentions”, there’s Bachelet’s father’s tragic personal story, as well as Lagos’ former nickname “Mozart of Economics” for his radical socialist philosophy in the 1960’s. Yet his greatest legacy as president 40 years later is intense environmental destruction, dramatically increased inequality, higher unemployment — he was leaned on by economic groups, who ended up professing their “love” for him, and he called them the forgers of the nation…did all that happen in spite of himself?
Obviously economic interests are what really govern Chile, but is it really just that the Conceracion is “not doing enough”??? OR, aren’t they in many ways benefiting from and/or promoting the neoliberalism that Pinochet set rolling???
September 2nd, 2007 at 6:16 am
I thought liberals opposed entrapment.
Off topic of course, but no matter how much we are dsigusted by Craig’s hypocrisy, the manner in which he was busted and the homophobic schadenfreude of some liberals at this repressive tactic, is quite disturbing.
September 2nd, 2007 at 6:38 am
the homophobic schadenfreude of some liberals at this repressive tactic, is quite disturbing.
Would you like to surprise us and be specific for a change?
September 2nd, 2007 at 6:41 am
The constant jokes on liberal blogs about Craig’s sexual orientation, the lack of principled opposition to entrapment, even when the person who is entrapped is a closet-case right wing legislator of anti-gay laws, etc. - The fact that the issue is not entrapment says it all. Specifically, I think that Marc’s post kind of crossed the line “Craig’s Lisp” - playing on stereotypes, etc. - though ti was finny. Worse were many commenters on Kos, etc.
September 2nd, 2007 at 6:57 am
In fact, having obviously straight white males using phony identities to act out a simulacrum of Craig in this comments area is also quite homophobic. And another Southeastern Republican, says some, is about to be outed.
I’m all for outing Republicans who work for repressive tactics against gay pepole. But I oppose entrapment on principle. I think the larger point is the great American closet, the parts of the country where gay people (Wyoming just south of Idaho) still have to live in fear, creating situations in which bathroom and rest area cruising is neccessary to satisfy their libido.
I’m not gay though I do have a wide stance- but seriously - I was 19 ten years ago travelling with a rock band and participating in petty exchange of some or other items, and had stopped at a rest area. I was over a urinal and felt a hand on my ass, and nearly punched the guy in the face. But when I rebuffed his advances, he calmly explained to me that this was what people had to do. “Skittles” I think they call it.
Should that be a criminal offense?
September 2nd, 2007 at 7:15 am
If it were entrapment, then Craig shouldn’t have pleaded guilty and fought the allegations in court.
I think that the entire thing is rather sad more than anything else and as Reg blogged over at BH, the fact that the Republican leadership threw Craig under the bus while remaining largely silent on David Vitter.
As for whether it should be a criminal offense, yes it should. There are places for consenting adults to engage in sexual activity. Public restrooms are not among them.
As for your experience, let’s be clear: do you really believe that unsolicited and unwanted sexual touching of one person by another should not be a criminal offense? Ask a woman.
September 2nd, 2007 at 7:39 am
If it were entrapment, then Craig shouldn’t have pleaded guilty and fought the allegations in court.
true
As for whether it should be a criminal offense, yes it should. There are places for consenting adults to engage in sexual activity. Public restrooms are not among them……do you really believe that unsolicited and unwanted sexual touching of one person by another should not be a criminal offense? Ask a woman.
Context means a lot. I don’t think in an ideal culture that cruising in restrooms should be an ideal. An ideal though will also be a culture in which people do not need to do so. A homophobic (and sex-phobic) culture creates the need for such actions. And even if I accept that the law, it is a disgusting thing to assign a cop to wait in a bathroom to catch lonely closet cases. There are far more productive uses of police resources. To compare this to unwanted sexual touching of a woman is absurd.
September 2nd, 2007 at 7:57 am
entrapment is inducing people to commit a crime that they would otherwise not commit. I think Craig was there to get his freak on.
The cops aren’t there to “arrest lonely closet cases”. They are there because of there have been complaints and the cops wish to drive the behavior away by making an example or two.
To bring this back to topic, was is the status of furtive public sex in Chile?
September 2nd, 2007 at 9:44 am
My Response to Jcummmings:
Craig’s Lisp
Craig’s Limp Answer
Craig Turns Lavendar
Craig’s Back-Ended Explanation
Craigs Gets the Bum Rush
Craig’s Boner
Craig Sucks The Big Weenie
Now ive crossed all the lines, I hope. I love it how you say what I wrote was funny but nevertheless “crossed the line.” Hope you make it to church today to confess having laughed at such outrageous and blatant homophobia. Here’s an eraser — make your life simpler.
BTW, Randy’s got the legal issue correct. Cross-stall sexual solicitation in a public bathroom is totally inappropriate. As we only have single-sex bathrooms these acts are by definition of a homosexual nature. If we had ambi-sexual bathrooms, what would these scolds think of a guy tapping on the high heels of the gal next to him as she was trying to relieve herself?
And anyways, Cummings has the answer as usual. IN an ideal world, you see, there would be no sexual frustration. Once the proletariat seizes power and the fundamental contradiction of capitalist society is resolved, levels of alienation will soon decline. As the state whithers away, so will aberrational social behavior. That’s obvious, isn’t it?
I mean, look at China. While not really communist, it’s at least along the road. There. female children are often abandoned or aborted thereby reducing the potential pool of victims of sexual abuse. A clear advance over capitalism/
September 2nd, 2007 at 10:54 am
Chileno: A belated answer to your question– no… I ascribe only some of the worst motivation to the Concertacion. Almost universally I find their leadership to be reprehensible. If anything, the piece I linked to abive was the “softest” Ive ever written about these folks. I dont like them and I dont trust them, pa’nada.
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:10 pm
“what I wrote was funny but nevertheless ‘crossed the line.’”
Neither funny nor line-crossing, to be honest. The “lisp” joke is the kind of stale humor you heard among dimwit squares in the 1970’s. And even then it wasn’t funny. Oh well.
September 2nd, 2007 at 6:12 pm
That’s a great job–sitting all day in a stall and busting horny or lonely) closet cases.
There’s something unsavory about it.
Still, the average citizen wants to be able to take a dump in peace–or send her son into the men’s room to relieve himself in peace–while changing planes. Someone has to do the unsavory job, I guess.
On another subject–does Chile let Bolivians sneak in to Santiago? No doubt they’re needy, hard-working, and will demand less in wages than the Chilenos.
September 2nd, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Still, the average citizen wants to be able to take a dump in peace–or send her son into the men’s room to relieve himself in peace–while changing planes.
It would be an intrusion on a person’s peace only if they actually noticed the signaling and knew enough to interpret it.
I don’t imagine the average ‘kid’ would notice. Further since homosexuality (to any degree) does not equal pedophilia, the kid’s likely not even at risk. I get a real kick out of the parents of “16 year old boys” wringing their hands over this. Part of me wants to say, “Oh, your kid should be so attractive.” Another part of me wants to say, “At 16 maybe you want to explain the ‘birds and the bees’ to your kid and/or help him understand that everyone isn’t like him.” Maybe what airports (and other public places) really need are single occupancy restrooms where parents can inspect the rest room in advance for its safety and stand guard at the door until their kid exits.
September 2nd, 2007 at 9:58 pm
>>>I don’t trust them, pa’nada.
No sirven empa’nada. It’s bad because I made it up. Anyway, GOM, it’s more Peruvian immigration than Bolivian which is the big deal. (Argentineans too but the ones I know tend to own places, rather than work at them). But you’re right the Peruvians get paid bad even for Chilean standards, a lot of Peruvian women working as maids, long unpaid overtime, etc, although I don’t know where you get off calling them “hard working”, according to a shopkeeper I spoke to they’re lazy, a cabdriver affirmed that and warned me to watch out because they’re generally dirty and rowdy when they drink, which is always. Despite that, they still manage to steal jobs from Chileans, who are sweet and kind.
“The Clinic” (liberal magazine founded in celebration of Pinochet’s arrest in a London clinic) published a joke a while back about Bolivia taking out a loan to buy a TV. My Chilean girlfriend chastised me for laughing because according to her it’s a totally racist joke, so now I feel totally guilty every time I repeat it, and laugh. “Craig’s Lisp” was pretty good, it wasn’t square or 70’s-ish, because craigslist didn’t exist in the 70’s. Sorry for explaining the joke. “Lisp” is pretty bad, but it’s nice to see people erring on the side of humor.
Anyway, to be a stick in the mud (sorry), and talk more about the Chilean economy: Sergio, wn, you’re ridiculously optimistic but it’s inspiring. Probably a loose analogy but I think Lagos et al ARE your Chilean Reagan, Thatcher, whoever. I think it’s in the second YouTube video above where Claude cites an interview that Carlos Altamirano, a friend of S. Allende, gave to La Tercera saying that Lagos was the best center-right president of Chile in the past century. In terms of the economy, Lagos was more brutal than Pinochet in many ways.
I admit I don’t really know much about the US labor movement except what i saw in Sacco and Venzetti (which harped on that playful dance that xenophobia and classism do, although then the Chileans were among those being scorned by the prosecutor), so it certainly seems like it was rough even decades into the 20th century, but still I think culturally there’s something that the US has that Chile doesn’t, which is a higher value placed on the individual, and human capital, whereas in Chile it’s still very much human livestock. I honestly don’t think much has changed in that sense since the 1907 Iquique massacre of 3,000 men, women and children, followed by ups and downs in the labor movement till 1973, which brings us back to D’oh, today, there aren’t that many building blocks as the US, the US 100 years ago, that’s my conjecture not really knowing US history as much as I should, what do you think, wn? Was the US really as bad off then as Chile is now?
September 3rd, 2007 at 1:35 am
“along with the added aggravant’.
Aggravating this torrid weather, ain’t it? So extreme it fucks up your lexeme.
September 3rd, 2007 at 7:02 am
So, LOTS, if men fellate each other QUIETLY in the can so six-year-old Tommy won’t notice when he goes in to take a leak, you think Mommy should relax?
As far as the law (as opposed to my personal views) is concerned, I’m generally with the Duchess, who didn’t care what people do, so long as they don’t frighten the horses. Public bathroom sex, though, even noiseless, is in the horse-spooking category.
September 3rd, 2007 at 8:55 am
“Frightening the horses” might be putting the bar a bit too high for this particular behavior. The thing that’s really wierd about this “bathroom sex solicitation” deal is something on this order would be perfectly legal, if inelegant, solicitation in a “singles bar”, be it gay or straight. But it’s conducted in the most godawful, inappropriate, creepy and extremely public place imaginable because…closet cases like Craig are can’t bring themselves to enter an openly gay environment.
September 3rd, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Okay, Grumpy. So now, Tommy is 6 instead of 16? Most 6 year olds, I’m aware of, are escorted into the men’s restroom under the protection of their fathers. If Dad isn’t available, I tend to see those 6 year olds in the women’s restroom escorted by their mother or female babysitter.
My thinking is the fear/ick factor is very much a guy thing. And, the sooner guys can get beyond it, the likelihood of encountering the Larry Craig’s of this world in a men’s bathroom will drop like a rock.
September 4th, 2007 at 1:33 am
Samuel - see we are all just amusment for our elevated host. That is what allows us to be mocked, ridiculed, name-called and banned when all else fails…
For the record, my benefits are decent (I work for the State), I am in debt, I have traveled in Chile and I know things are changing there and throughout Latin America because it is there for all to see.
Countries (re)taking over their resources is a major accomplishment. It just so happens Allende already did that, so what is next in Chile??
Since it can no longer be argued that Venezuela is making enviable social strides, let’s talk democracy. Cooper mentions the following: Nepotism… corruption, a bully president who can legislate by decree, a stacked Supreme Courts, a tampered-with media, and a congress which votes 100% with the president who has just removed all terms limits.
Nepotism was surely not invented by the Chavez family, nor in Venezuela - ask Hillary and the Bush’s. Corruption? Come on. I read he once asked for God’s forgiveness on TV, because he said he would like to kill the couple army officers who pocketed development money (in his home district I believe). Many of those corrupt are opposition members who don’t respect the State - like the old Supreme Court Justice Valasquez who skipped town after allegedly skimming off the top.
Does Cooper mean the “stacked Supreme Court” that just ruled against Chavez’s government a few weeks ago saying (quite amazingly) that RCTV is not a national broadcaster because it has an office in Miami and sells a few (Venezuelan) shows abroad. Everyone knows RCTV is Venezuelan, but the Court said the Govt. did not have clear enough language in the law. The media question has been dealt with enough, but I hope everyone is aware that the coup-mongering RCTV channel is back on the air, there for anyone with cable to watch their provacative soap operas…
The lowest blow is the swipe at a 100% compliant Congress. First off, it is not true that the National Assembly just removed term limits - the people must vote to allow that. And second, as you fail to mention, the pro-Chavez composition is solely the fault of a brilliant opposition strategy to boycott elections. The oppsoition knew it was going to get wiped out so they bailed… perhaps knowing the US public would not get that part of the story in most of their Fox news reports…
Meanwhile, 9 years after his first election, Chavez has won 5 elections by an ever greater margin. The high hopes he has given the poor, have evidently not run dry as he maintains a higher approval rating than nearly anyone else in Latin America. This despite the fact that he gets beat up and insulted by the press 10x more than Bush ever has seen, the CIA has set up an Iraq-level desk to deal with him and the opposition remains as desperate and anti-democratic as ever. Far from hoarding power, Chavez has centered his constitutional reform program on devolving real power (planning and budgets) to community councils - a seperate new democratic pillar truly of the people.
Chavez is not perfect and has made many mikstakes - most with his mouth. But if you really care about poverty and power to the people, he is clearly showing the way in results and even just by trying so many new (and some old) things. The same old same old just ain’t cuttin it…
September 4th, 2007 at 11:24 am
Jcummings:
“I wonder by which model of democracy anyone would consider Chile’s “democratic institutions†superior to those of Venezuela’s - and what I’m sincerely asking for is not a critique of Venezuela, but an ideal model by which one measures this sort of thing. Democratic theory differs widely between representative and participatory, formal and praxis, etc. and I raelly would like to know what, in reality, is the model that people are getting at when they describe a repressive capitalist’s coutnries institutions as democratic.”
Howabout China vs. India? Neither have great records on economic justice. How would JC evaluate those two countries? (No doubt the better country is the one that is more anti-American.)
I have sympathy with the left’s concern with economic justice. They just seem to dismiss out of hand formal institutions of democracy. (To take one concrete example, Sistani forced the U.S. to have more democratic elections in Iraq. Would JC consider this development unimportant? Unoteworthy?)
“I can’t say why Bachelet is following these policies but I’d bet there is a lot of residual fear of the Army stepping in again. Particularly given the crowd now in power in Washington.”
Why can’t people remember the Cold War is over???????
Why didn’t the army step in when NATO Turkey elected a Muslim President?
Some on the left are stuck in a time warp. I was led to believe the U.S. would bare its capitalist fangs once the Soviet Union went under. It would get medieval on the countries who didn’t get inline and submit to the lone hyperpower.
Chavez would have been assassinated the 2nd day in office, with no U.S.S.R. to protect him. In reality Chavez is invited to the U.N. (that pawn of the capitalist center) and calls Bush the devil!
Some on the left have a proven record of supporting dictators (i.e. anti-democracy) as long as said dictators are enemies of the U.S. Enemy of my enemy, I guess.
September 4th, 2007 at 11:46 am
For all those who subscribe to it HBO will have a new docudrama on the arrest of Augosto Pinochet (played by Derek Jabobi) in the UK. It will air on Sept 11 - a date that has a different meaning in Santiago.
September 4th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
The Onion has a good “ask the public” bit on Larry Craig:
http://www.theonion.com/content/amvo/senator_craig_arrested
Liza Boors,
Systems Analyst
“I don’t have any problem with his behavior, as long as he wasn’t trying to marry the guy.”
Tom Hawkins,
Bus Driver
“Are you thinking what I’m thinking? What was a senator from Idaho doing in Minnesota?”
Joe Palazzo,
Meter Reader
“This situation begs a much bigger question: Why is our police force so tempting?”
September 4th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Howabout China vs. India? Neither have great records on economic justice. How would JC evaluate those two countries? (No doubt the better country is the one that is more anti-American.)
Clearly, I’d go with India - with large reservations that I have about their foreign policy, and much inequality, India - especially in parts of India governed by Left parties - has achieved far more social justice than most countries anywhere, let alone China. I’m talking Kerala, etc. On the other hand, agribusiness is destroyign India’s farmers.
China is improving but I think of it as the worst of both worlds.
September 4th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Why didn’t the army step in when NATO Turkey elected a Muslim President?
They sure as hell want to.
September 4th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Peter K’s other bleating is ahistorical. Everyone, includign the neocons and neolibs who tout it - knwos that capitalism has become far more radical post-cold war - particularly in former “communist” countries. Chavez is under threat of CIA interference constantly, and I don’t doubt for a moment that there have been assasniation threats against him.
You think capital stops playing the class war when its rival - at the end, its debtor - goes under?
Further, on Sistani, his pushing of elections hardely retroactively justifies the US murder of 600,000 + Iragis, which some dead-enders still support, not unlike those who sat with Adolf in his bunker.
Have some on the Left supported dictatorsihp over democracy? It depends, again, how you constitute either of the phrases. Elections don’t make a democracy, and lack thereof don’t make a dictatorship. People have more control over their lives, including “bourgeois” freedoms in some dictatorships than they do in some democracies. Life is far better in Syria than in Morroco, for example.