Pinochet Dies. His Legacy Lingers. [Updated] [And Re-Updated]
Re-Update: We've got a nice on-the-scene report from Santiago via young Chilean-American journalist Tomas Dinges. He's got a good eye. Tomas' Dad, John Dinges, spent some time with me in Chile back before you know who. Check out his books.
Christopher Hitchens has also written a smart piece, confronting the jackasses who would justify Pinochet's barbarity in exchange for his market economics. Isabel Allende also elegantly takes on that theme.
Make sure you also see some new material at the bottom of this post.
Update: After involuntarily living with Augusto Pinochet for 33 years of my life, I thought it only fair to respond to his death with three separate pieces of my own.
Click here to read my piece in Monday's Los Angeles Times on the passing of Pinochet.
I did an additional, more personal, piece for Salon.com .
And for The Nation I wrote the following:
Former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet died of complications from a heart attack Sunday at age 91. His death has cheated justice, snatching him from the material world just as he faced the possibility of standing trial for the murder of two bodyguards of his predecessor, President Salvador Allende.
A neatly timed exit, considering the former general was also facing charges on how and why he stashed as much as $17 million in overseas accounts as well as continuing judicial investigations into numerous other human rights atrocities that took place during the bloody and dark period of his rule that stretched from 1973 until 1990.
But Pinochet’s demise doesn’t save him from the harsh judgment of history. He dies not only decrepit and politically abandoned in a Santiago hospital but also discredited and reviled. His very name alone has come to rightfully symbolize and encapsulate all of the horrors and fears associated with brutal, dictatorial regimes.
It’s not just the numbers, though they are horrific in themselves. In a country of barely 11 million at the time of his seizure of power, 3,000 murdered by the state, more than a thousand disappeared (some of them thrown into the ocean, others into pits of lime), tens of thousands tortured and hundreds of thousands sent into political or economic exile.
Pinochet also embodied a wave of authoritarianism that swept through all of Latin America during the time of his rule. Similar dictatorships imposed their own brand of fear as they clamped down on Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia and Peru.
Encouraged by a Reagan administration in Washington and rising Thatcherism in Europe, these military regimes instituted a savage free-market capitalism, in many cases reversing decades of carefully constructed social welfare reforms. At gunpoint unions were outlawed, labor laws were abolished, universities were stifled, tuition was hiked, national health care and social security programs were privatized and these already unequal societies were rigidly stratified into rich and poor, strong and weak, the favored and the invisible.
Pinochet even attempted to build a new Terror International by setting up what became known as Operation Condor. Established in Santiago, the short-lived network aimed at making repression and murder more efficient through increased coordination, information sharing and joint secret operations among the allied dictatorships. The most prominent victim of this alliance in murder was former Chilean Ambassador Orlando Letelier and his associate Ronni Moffett, blown apart by a 1976 car bomb in downtown Washington DC – a bomb set by Pinochet’s dreaded secret police, known as DINA.
Even after this barbaric act of terror, even after the world began to learn of Pinochet’s other mass crimes, it was jarring to see how much the American press still pandered to him as the man who was bringing economic revival to Chile. No matter that his “shock therapy” nostrums prescribed by the recently deceased Milton Friedman pushed Chile to the brink of bankruptcy and that the first public rebellions against the regime in 1983 were as motivated as much by hunger than by political rage.
Years after Pinochet was voted out of power in a 1988 plebiscite (which he unsuccessfully tried to rig), the swaggering general seemed impugn. He remained head of the army until 1998 and then promoted himself to Senator-for-life under the terms of a military-written constitution.
Only because of the intrepid efforts of a couple of crusading Spanish magistrates looking into the political murder of co-nationals in Chile and the bad luck of Pinochet being served with an international arrest warrant from them while visiting London in 1998 was the course of history righted. Five hundred days of British custody eroded the political magical shield that Pinochet had borne. He shrunk from invulnerable strongman to wanted war criminal. Upon his return to Chile, two decades of social taboo were shattered and Pinochet was formally indicted for murder by the courageous former Judge Juan Guzman Tapia.
The cascading indictments of Pinochet, the gruesome truths revealed by judges and government commissions, the accelerated erosion of his legacy, coincided with a tectonic political shift on the continent. A 25 year cycle of military rule produced a radical counter-cycle of civilian and leftist reform. The chairs of power in Montevideo, Buenos Aires, Santiago, Brazila, and La Paz – once occupied by dictators and generals—now seat democratically elected reformers, liberals, and socialists.
Their task is formidable: to heal the trauma, reverse the damage, and bridge the yawning social gaps that are the real legacy of the Pinochet era. In Brazil, President Lula struggles –decades after the supposed economic miracle brought by the previous military dictatorship—to feeds tens of millions who slip below the hunger line. In Chile, even the center-left government faces stiff protests from a riled student population only now feeling enough self-confidence to demand overhaul of an educational system left in tatters by the dictatorship. And so on.
Burying Pinochet this week in itself won’t make this task any easier. In some odd ways it might make even make it more difficult. As long as he was alive, even in a gargoyle state, he was a grotesque reminder of all that has haunted the continent, all that has been left unresolved. Good, let’s bury him now and post an armed guard at his gravesite, making sure he again never rises. And then back to the work of healing what he has wrought.-- + --
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Update: More News from Santiago. Calm seems to have returned to the Chilean capital after a night of street clashes following Pinochet's death. About 100 people were arrested.
A few thousand die-hard Pinochet supporters filed before his casket, paying homage to the cadaver of the former Captain General of The Republic, as he liked to call himself. Chile is a wonderful country with wonderful people. It's about the most class-conscious place I have ever been (outside of Montecarlo). So let me tell you, the Chilean ruling class has an unabashed sense of self, a brazen shamelessness which has permitted it to revere and glorify a humble middle-class general who didn't flinch from murder and mayhem to nakedly defend their interests.
These upper-class Chileans -- momios as they are not so affectionately called by the other 95% of the population-- made up the bulk of the fanaticized mourners. For old time's sake, some didn't hesitate to offer Pinochet's corpse their favorite salute:
December 10th, 2006 at 1:47 pm
[…] For instant analysis, turn to Marc Cooper, who served as a translator to the man felled by Pinochet’s coup. Former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet died of complications from a heart attack Sunday at age 91. His death has cheated justice, snatching him from the material world just as he faced the possibility of standing trial for the murder of two bodyguards of his predecessor, President Salvador Allende…. – Tim Dickinson […]
December 10th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
Interesting historical footnote: Pinochet and Jeane “Let’s-suck-up-to-totalitarian-regimes” Kirkpatrick died in the same week.
December 10th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
I looked up some economic statistics from the World : REGIONAL FACT SHEET FROM THE WORLD DEVELOPMENT INDICATORS 2006:
Latin America and the Caribbean (Google it for the PDF). Chile is at or near the top in Latin America for most economic indicators, as well as social indicators such as life expectancy.
There’s no doubt that the Pinochet coup was particularly ugly and his government very brutal (and also, apparently, corrupt). The preceding Allende régime is close to your heart as you were connected with it. I’m not so certain, however, that the record supports your antipathy to the market reforms, which at least in the medium run apparently have led to economic expansion which in turn has led to successive elected center-left governments.
I don’t know whether Pinochet’s egg-breaking contributed to or was necessary for this particular omelet. Will those who applaud or wink at leftist egg-breaking objectively compare the costs and the results as between, say, Pinochet and Fidel?
December 10th, 2006 at 3:48 pm
World BANK.
December 10th, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Wanted: A Strong Wooden Stake and Several Garlic Bulbs…
Those are some of the tools that are necessary to ensure that a vampire is really dead. As one has died today and his truly vile regime was responsible for the deaths of thousands, the torture of many more thousands,…
December 10th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Por fin.
I knew you’d save some of your best writing for this, Marc. I read many other stories before I went to your site ( the LA Times‘ is refreshingly candid, CNN.com is a pathetic whitewash, among others), and you do not disappoint.
I was just a 10 year Chilean old kid on 9/11/73 , and no one explained to me in those brutal 1970s why adults I knew were sent to the National Stadium, Dawson Island, exiled abroad, or just ” disappeared”.
I now feel just a bit more healed.
Gracias, Marc
December 10th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
In an amazing coincidence, he croaked on Human Rights Day.
December 10th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Thanks Sergio.,
Grumpy Old Man..do me a big friggin’ favor and dont patronize me, telling me I might be too emotionall involved to understand the market reforms in Chile.
Believe it or not, Im actually also EDUCATED when it comes to Chile and you are not willing to pay my rates to spend the time demolishing your argument.
Chile today is one of the most economically UNEQUAL socieites in the world. Period. Its national health care system has been obliterated, its privatized social security system us a failure, its educational systems is a class-based nightmare. The minimum wage remains about a dollar an hour and prices are similar to the U.S.
Perhaps you should spend six months living in Chile on a Chilean wage and then report back with your findings.
On the other hand, let’s say you are right. What then would our conclusions be? That free market reforms can be successfull imposed once you have used tanks and cannons to wipe out labor unions, labor law, social welfare programs and everything else the chileans accumulated over 100 years of progress.
Oh, yes, Pinochet also built the underground railway and even made it run on time.
That’s all you get for free. Otherwise, it;s $3 a word, paid in advance. Market rates, you know.
December 10th, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Went to your site first, just moments after my wife hollered the news up the stairs.
“Honey, Pinochet?”
“Dead?” I asked.
“Yup.”
Seems a good time for Cooper fans to go back and read your excellent memoir.
December 10th, 2006 at 6:11 pm
Thanks Marc for the best reporting I’ve seen so far: I’m in London and immediately turned to the BBC. Characteristically they balanced the news with ‘Baroness’ Thatcher saying “Pinochet brought to democracy to Chile.” That prompted me to call my daughter and run to the cemetery to give Roberto the news.
Meanwhile Plaza Italia, la Alameda and V. McKenna are sites of celebrations in Santiago. I’m hoping - since as you say Pinochet cheated justice — that the floodgates will now open in Chile. Let the process begin! Pinebox yes! And even Pinera says he won’t go to the funeral!
I opened a bottle of Chilean wine here with Monica to celebrate. Hope you and Patricia do too.
Suzi
December 10th, 2006 at 6:20 pm
You’re right that inequality is high in Chile. This from Wikipedia:
“Inequality and poverty continue to be the region’s main challenges; according to the most recent report by the United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean (CEPAL) Latin America is the most unequal region in the world. Moreover, according to the World Bank, nearly 25% of the population lives on less than 2 USD a day. The countries with the highest inequality in the region (as measured with the Gini index in the UN Development Report) in 2006 were Bolivia (60.1) Colombia (58.6), Paraguay (57.8) and Chile (57.1), while the countries with the lowest inequality in the region were Nicaragua (43.1), Ecuador (43.7), Venezuela (44.1) and Uruguay (44.9).” [Footnotes and links omitted].
No charge for that.
December 10th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
[…] That’s as in “Rot in Hell”…It’s a very special designation that I have applied just once before. It’s pretty much reserved for actual mass murderers, especialy those operating under political cover. Merely enabling and providing political cover mass murder doesn’t merit this very special treatment, so no such status for the also recently deceased Jeanne Kirkpatrick. Sorry, Jeannie baby. I’m no expert, so I’ll leave you to the words of Marc Cooper, who is more than usually qualified to discuss Pinochet and his legacy. Cooper was directly impacted by Pinochet and when he was a young translator for Salvador Allende, the democratically elected President of Argentina deposed in a C.I.A.-backed coup on September 11, 1973. You might also want to check out the lively comments. (It’s only a movie, but it would have nice to be able to point some of you toward a lovely film about survival during the Argentinian terror, Kamchatka — it’s a neccessarily tragic, but also gently humorous, film of life during war time. Despite being Argentina’s officlal entry for the foreign language Oscar, it was not nominated and never released in the States and apparently remains unavailable on DVD. If you’re interested, my review is here.). […]
December 10th, 2006 at 7:16 pm
What? How you connect to Reagan is a stretch. No, it’s flat out wrong! Reagan had NOTHING to do with the Federal government at the time of Pinochet’s rise to power.
No one denies that Pinochet seized power. The question that is not addressed is why. Why did he feel compelled to seize power? Why did he act in the brutal manner that you suggest? Why were certain peopled singled out for special treatment by his police and military? A fair and objective view would like to frame the actions taken.
He seized power because violence was spilling out of control. The violence was being initiated by many of those who were offered special treatment by his police and military. The communists were violent and Pinochet’s violence mirrored their violence. The circle of violence came to end when Pinochet raised the stakes to where those who initiated the cycle surrendered.
While Pinochet seized power of Chile, it was to end a violent outbreak initiated by the communists. To assert that he just started using excessive force is ignorance or purposeful deceit.
December 10th, 2006 at 7:19 pm
Interestingly enough, “market reforms” may be one of, if not the worst of Pinochet’s long term legacies. In many theories of the history of modern neoliberalism, Chile marks the beginning of the experiment, looked at like a lab by University of Chicago thugs. These economic policies became the demanded system, loved by national elites as well as transnational finance, all through the developing world.
December 10th, 2006 at 7:27 pm
jcummings- you are a beacon of light … how perceptive of you to attack the U of C thugs … They are guilty of untold crimes … Specifically, they dare to reason and champion human liberty. How dare they commit such crimes against humanity. No people like Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, etc. are the real heros. They used such kind means to achieve their ends. Please grow-up my friend. Chile is prospering and that is a good thing.
December 10th, 2006 at 7:52 pm
Congratulations Marc, you’ve got a new troll who defends someone who committed acts of terrorism on three continents.
December 10th, 2006 at 8:03 pm
Four - he imprisoned people on islands that for all intents and purposes should be considered parts of Antarctica.
December 10th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Well they were legally Chilean territory, so I gotta go with three.
December 10th, 2006 at 8:25 pm
Xavier sounds like a nice, young, naive Chilean no doubt enjoying cheap cell phone prices and easy internet access.
He is of course manufacturing history. The notion that Allende’s government fomented violence is just patently untrue. — as unubstantiated as iraq’s nuclear program in 2003.
it’s a wonderful debating device however. Alas, Chile was roiled by violence and instability. Poor Pinochet was forced to intevrene, abolish all democracy and rule of law, but he brought piece. Those 3200 people murdered and the 27,000 tortured were either a) all guilty b) were part of same unnamed opposing army or c) were invented by the lying International Media.
By the way, answer C is still among the most common among the Good Germans, I mean the Good Chileans who defend terror and murder. There was none, you see. Just Jew Commie Lies.
December 10th, 2006 at 8:36 pm
BTW, Marc, CNN International has been reporting that he’s going to be given a military funeral and cremated. Probably for the best under the circumstances.
As for Allende, perhaps Xavier can refer to this article in that hotbed of leftism, The Economist:
A falsehood repeated gains no truth through repetition.
December 10th, 2006 at 8:41 pm
Marc-
For the record, the Iraq nuclear program was believed to be in full swing by every major intelligence agency in Europe prior to the break of the war (UK, France, Germany, Russia, Spain, Poland, etc.). Further, the UN was also in that camp.
As for the assertion that the people killed and totured were randomly drawn from the population is a choice only a person in denial could assume. Why? Why were they selected for such special treatment? Are you saying that the regime just picked them randomly? Who then was firing at the Chilean Army and police officials? Please do not call me naive because I believe that every political struggle has at least two sides. The dirty war was two-sided. By the way, I do like my great cell phone service
December 10th, 2006 at 10:16 pm
Absolutely … wrong.
>For the record, the Iraq nuclear program was believed to be in full swing by every major intelligence agency in Europe prior to the break of the war (UK, France, Germany, Russia, Spain, Poland, etc.). Further, the UN was also in that camp.
December 10th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
… Perhaps you mistook an “n” for a “q.”
December 10th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
I said in an earlier post that dictatorships can only survive because a significant percentage of the population, sometimes an overwhelming majority as in Hitler’s Germany and sometimes just a minority as in Saddam’s Iraq, is complicit with their continuation. Xavier, although ignorant and naive (and probably too young to have any direct knowledge of events in his own country during the 1970s), is a good example of what I am talking about.
December 11th, 2006 at 12:12 am
Other than those Chileans who supported him, two countries stand out for first enabling Pinochet to take power and then enabling him to escape justice for this crimes: The United States, which deliberately helped create the conditions for Pinochet’s coup and engaged directly in early plotting for it, via the personage of Henry Kissinger, and the United Kingdom, which allowed Pinochet to leave without facing charges in Spain, via the personages of Tony Blair and Robin Cook (the latter would later redeem himself slightly by opposing the Iraq war.)
It is ironic that the two allies who brought us the disaster in Iraq are also the most culpable in fostering and then protecting Pinochet. Even the conservative newspaper Le Figaro saw through the British decision that Pinochet was too frail to face trial. When he landed in Santiago after leaving the UK, Le Figaro ran two photos on its front page, one of Pinochet looking frail and decrepit in a wheelchair at Heathrow Airport and another of him walking across the tarmac at Santiago airport to greet his supporters with a broad smile. The headline: “Pinochet va mieux,” ie, Pinochet is doing better. He did better for a number of years after that.
December 11th, 2006 at 12:47 am
at least Pinochet lived to outlast his welcome from his enabling countries, and helped make the world an inhospitable place for dictators. this quote, for example, shows that times at least have changed (too bad a sizeable minority of Chileans haven’t gotten the message):
The White House on Sunday issued a statement saying that “Augusto Pinochet’s dictatorship in Chile represented one of most difficult periods in that nation’s history. Our thoughts today are with the victims of his reign and their families. We commend the people of Chile for building a society based on freedom, the rule of law, and respect for human rights.”
(from LA Times Article)
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-pinochet11dec11,0,3267889.story?coll=la-home-headlines
December 11th, 2006 at 5:10 am
As a spanish I have heard plenty of stories about our local Pinochet (Franco was his name). Some like to think people are bored and all of the sudden a bulb lights up in their heads and say: hey, let’s make a coup d’etat and kill a bunch of commies for fun! That is not true. What happens is that you have a country out of control and a group of militars risk their lives to try to find a way out.
In Spain, 70 years ago the far left wing was burning churches, seizing land, killing people … The country was going to the hell in a hand basket until it was saved by a coup. Truth is the military responsible for it then started an effort to surpass the savagery of the communists and anarchists. People got their doors knocked at 3 a.m., got arrested and were never to be seen again. For many years, an anonymous accusation of union membership meant a sure death sentence.
Now the left wing are rewritting history, pretending they didn’t brought 40 years of hard right wing dictatorship on us. Pretending they were little angels unfairly slaughtered by the evil conservatives. As terrible as Franco was, I won’t put up with that crap.
Now Mr Cooper, let me tell you in normal circumstances I would exercise caution. I would like to hear from the other side. What led to this brutal dictatorship and please, don’t tell me it was boredom: as I pointed before, I am inmunized against such an excuse. I would like to be explained what happened with the economy, why Allende was Fidel Castro’s pal, the social unrest … but after reading your attack on free market economy I won’t even try. You are clearly biased.
And by the way, it’s nice to see a murderous bastard dead. Let’s hope Fidel joins him soon.
December 11th, 2006 at 5:36 am
We really have to thank Florecilla Silvestre for drawing the parallels between Franco’s takeover of Spain and Pinochet’s takeover of Chile. In both cases, a democratically elected government that was not to the liking of the rich and powerful was the subject of a military coup, and in both cases the coups received outside aid: In the former case from the Nazis and Italy’s Mussolini, with studied neutrality from the US, France, and the UK, and in the latter case from the United States.
Again, from Florecilla and Xavier, we see the complicity that allowed these coups to take place.
December 11th, 2006 at 5:47 am
Bill Bradley- you are correct that you are wrong. We even have video tape of Kerry, Kennedy, etc. saying that Iraq had the WMD and Nuclear program. Our friends at the NYT admit Iraq had a program.
the only lie is that Bush fabricated the facts. Please stop with the denials.
December 11th, 2006 at 6:43 am
“The United States, which deliberately helped create the conditions for Pinochet’s coup and engaged directly in early plotting for it, via the personage of Henry Kissinger, and the United Kingdom.”
Apparently this is the canned argument for all foreign internal conflicts? We pulled the strings, and thus are ultimately responsible for everything everywhere. This is far too conspiratorial for my liking. One suspects greater weight is given to the facts of the matter favoring such a conclusion. I’m vaguely interested in what makes a young college droput to go down there to such a place in the first place, but I suppose it’s in the book.
December 11th, 2006 at 6:44 am
Balter, I know that you probably disliked what I wrote (specially the last sentence) but calm down. A war is not always a game of evil vs good but of evil vs evil. The good are caught in the middle of the fray and ruthlessly crushed. You will learn this kind of stuff as you grow up.
And please, be logical. If only the “rich and powerful” disliked the course of events of the 2nd spanish republic, it would have been 5% of spanish against the other 95%. The split was closer to 50/50. You know, when churches are burnt with the clergy inside, land owners shot and their property siezed, the chief of the oppossing political party is assasinated by law enforcement officers … more than just “the rich and powerful” dislike that.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:07 am
I will leave it to others to decide how much they want to educate themselves about what happened in Spain, and how much they want to find the antidote to Florecilla’s amazingly ahistorical description of the Franco revolt. I will just add here that the Spanish Civil War has to be placed in the context of the worldwide fascist movement that was on the rise at that time and had already taken power in Germany and Italy, and which Florecilla conveniently neglects to mention. In Germany, it was the burning of the Reichstag that was used to jusitfy the brutal repression, every dictator has his excuse–and his coterie of ass lickers who lap it all up.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:27 am
Well, its curious because when Pinochet took power, Chile had the half of the PerCapitaIncome of the south american countries.
Now the PCI of Chileans its the double of the average south american. And about the prices in chile…. I where in Chile very briefly some years ago, but better than what i can say about the “and prices are similar to the U.S.”, its what the PPP indicators tell….
PPP:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
Nominal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita
I know i know, now you will preach me with the
“the most economically UNEQUAL socieites in the world”, and i will answer you that i dont believe people lives of percentages, people lives of real money, and for that i dont believe in this kinds of clasifications that say things like there are more poor people in Austria or Denmark than in Hungary based on that concept of “UNEQUAL”.
(I asume you are fluent in spanish)
http://personales.ya.com/josumezo/2004/06/bienaventurados-los-pobres.html
Just a copule of personal examples of why if i would have to live like a average citizen of a south american country i choose Chile only based on what you cant see in Chile.
One of my relatives works for the SCH bank and he made buisness travels to almost all south america, and what he said about Chile?: “Its the only country in south america where you dont see people living like rats in the streets”.
Aside for a short buisness trip to Chile, i did a holyday travel to Cuba with my wife a couple years ago, and you know what i didnt see in Chile?. I didnt see 15 yrs old girls offering themself in the middle of tourist places by dozens, and i didnt see people with bone cheeks that tells you they were not accustomed to three daily meals.
But what most amaze me all the time about all related to Pinochet is this:
“His very name alone has come to rightfully symbolize and encapsulate all of the horrors and fears associated with brutal, dictatorial regimes.”
One of the less murderous dictator of all the twentieth century is the symbol of of all dictatorial regimes?. Just to put it on perspective, in the same time of the Pinochet rule, the Kmer rouges killed the same number of people in two days than Pinochet in seventeen years. Then why Pinochet is so (in)famous and the people who killed millions in Cambodia for thing like know to speak frech, wear glasses or whisper to much during the slave work, live peacefully in Phnom Penh and you dont hear a word about them?.
What make Pinochet so different?.
Maybe because all the leftys in the media get very offended because Pinochet dared to do to a couple of thousands commies what they did by standard in any country they took power to hundreds of thousands?.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:30 am
Florecilla, i do not think you must spend more time talking with an stalinist like mike balter, probably he loves castro and pol pot.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:49 am
The left had every right to burn those houses of superstition in Spain. Also, did you hear Allende was a Mason? That must mean he was working with the Jews and the Illuminati to destroy Chilean catholicism.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:51 am
Franco brought us Mel Gibson. Its true.
December 11th, 2006 at 8:19 am
Save your history lessons about the very country were I live and don’t get me started with Franco, will ya?. I know quite some cases, like that just wed man who got the consacrated wafer stuck in the top of his mouth. He spit it to the ground as he existed the church and somebody didn’t like that. The civil corps paid him a visit that very night … his family never saw him again. Many were anonymously denounced as communists by a debtor or an enemy. Many innocent were forced to dig their own grave at gunpoint. Speaking a language different from spanish meant trouble. Catholic indoctrination was mandatory. Everything was censored so people had to cross the border with France if they wanted to see a tit or a butt in the TV or a magazine.
Franco was a sanctimonious, murderous, moronic psycopath. But pretending he took power because the evil “rich and powerful” conspired against social advance is akin to excusing the criminal behaviour of the marxist and anarchist guerrillas. And ultimately planting the seeds for another little Franco to grow up.
What’s the problem with you Michael? Are you a socialist? Don’t you like your buddies getting their share of manure when it hits the fan?. Too bad
December 11th, 2006 at 8:37 am
Marc, thank you–just superb writing. I look forward to reading your LAT and Salon pieces, as well.
December 11th, 2006 at 9:20 am
So will Bush be attending the funeral? Doubt it, he doesn’t know who Pinochet was, never heard of him. Dick sure does and so does Rummy–who has a little more time on his hands now.
December 11th, 2006 at 11:06 am
See Ernest Hemingway on the conflict in Spain. He strongly favored the anti-fascists and reported the war firsthand as he did in WWII later. For Whom the Bell Tolls is a good place to start.
December 11th, 2006 at 11:15 am
[…] Marc Cooper has more: It’s not just the numbers, though they are horrific in themselves. In a country of barely 11 million at the time of his seizure of power, 3,000 murdered by the state, more than a thousand disappeared (some of them thrown into the ocean, others into pits of lime), tens of thousands tortured and hundreds of thousands sent into political or economic exile. […]
December 11th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Well this has been fun! We can’t even agree on Chile’s relative economic performance (for the record I think Marc is right about this) and now we even are debating Franco and the Spanish Civil War. Why hasn’t anyone mentioned “Homage to Catalonia” yet? That conflict was surely one with villians on all sides as cynical outsiders played the Spanish people for chumps.
But Marc, as limited as my knowlege of Chile is, didn’t Pinochet have a lot of support from the Chilean Haute Bougoise who detested Allende and his “Communist” program? Isn’t the same group attacking Chavez? And could it be that Hugo does what does because of the example of Allende? That you don ‘t give these vultures an even break? Just asking.
December 11th, 2006 at 5:15 pm
xavier, you are a wretched little boot-licker.
you live to lick the sweat of the balls of right-wing alpha males .
December 11th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
Pinochet indeed had the support of what in Latin America is less of a bourgeoisie, in classical terms, than a feudal oligarchy. Bourgeoisies have matured in the last thirty years, but the Latin American elites are more rentiers, for the most part.
Chavez “Does what he does” indeed because of that example, and that of Arbenz and many others….He was able to defeat a coup, as would have Allende, if not ofr the assassination of Rene Schnieder. One hears of militarization of Venezuela- guy’s gotta keep the uniformed folks on his side….and they are workers too.
December 11th, 2006 at 5:23 pm
Well the fascists won in Spain in the coups didn’t they. Isn’t that what happened here too?
December 11th, 2006 at 5:31 pm
I know fascists like Florecilla Silvestre.
They do the rosary to images of Christ crucified on a swastika.
You care for the burned churches like you care for burned leftists.
December 11th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
Am I the only one who thinks that Hitchens piece, while in a large sense true, advances his own political agenda - subtly anti-socialist (quoting Isabel Allende without attribution and perhaps decontextualized in regards to Allende’s democratic economics) and implicitly invoking “universal jurisdiction” and “Saddam” to hint at his own agenda of top down, double standard-ridden, even Kirkpatrickian and discredited hawkishness? A shame he still had to assert his ego there, when it was mostly old-school Hitchens.
December 11th, 2006 at 6:44 pm
NeoDude-
You spew hate with no facts.
I guess if you cannot reason, then hating is all thats left.
December 11th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
Oh Christ, Cummings… you have no idea what you are saying. None. Chavez doesnt have to keep the military on “his side.” He IS the military.
And you even less of an idea when you refer to what Allende should have done. Your theory is completely disconnected from reality.
Meanwhile, let’s kibosh the name calling of Xavier and Florecilla. They have the perfect right to support any dictator they please. That’s what freedom is all about.
December 11th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Marc,
thanks for the moving piece about Pinochet’s death and thanks for the very fine writing.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:26 pm
Hey, wait, that isn’t the Nazi salute those people are making to Pinochet, is it?
December 11th, 2006 at 7:29 pm
Sorry, kid, you don’t get to change what you are claiming and then tell me that I’m wrong. Your claim was about all the West’s intelligence services. You literally are talking through the hat you don’t wear.
BTW, sport, having a program is not the same as being ready to go nuclear. If you knew anything at all you would know that.
>
December 11th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
I don’t know what happened there, this site doesn’t work like mine. The silly post I was handling didn’t show up.
I was responding to the distorted post by “xavier,” undoubtedly a waste of time in any event.
He was suddenly talking about John Kerry instead of MI6. And probably lying about that, too.
God, some of these people are such pointless clowns.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:36 pm
Marc, I’m afraid you misunderstood me. I don’t have any theory as to what Allende should have done. I did comment that perhaps if prominent pro-Allende military members suchas Schnieder were not killed, the Pinochetistas would not have been able to organize a fascist movement within the military that culminated in the coup. On the other hand, Chavez is perhaps disturbingly close to the military, or rather, as you say “is” the military, according to many people, in order to ensure a culture of loyalty that will prevent this kind of fascist movement from germinating.
December 11th, 2006 at 7:44 pm
Bill B: Yes, mein herr, that is indeed the Nazi-Fascist salute. One of the more picturesque aspects of the Pinochhet regime was in fact its links to openly fascist groups. Principal among these was Fatherland and Liberty whose official logo was thinly disguised swatztika. here’s a wikipedia link to the group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_and_Liberty
The leader of this sect, Pablo Rodriguez was the leader of a chain-swinging street gang that would come out with helmets and numchucks to beat up Allende supporters. And Guess what? Rodriguez grew up and becase…. drum roll… Pinochet’s defense lawyer!
The membership of these overtly Nazi gangs were mostly 100% candy-ass rich kids. That made them particularly dangerous as they had a direct class interest in promoting fascism. Spend all day on the street beating up students and them come and pork one of the Indian servants. Quaint, no?
Judging by that photo I posted, they’re still around. And the kids in those pix have all the looks of the Chilean upper class.
Looks like Fatherland and Liberty after all these years still maintain a website –>
http://usuarios.lycos.es/fnpl/
click on it and in the upper right hand corner you will see their Nazi-like logo. BTW for those who dont read Spanish, the site says it’s in mourning for the “second liberator and father of our Homeland.” It concludes:
“Nationalists! All in dffense of our mourning.. with our lives if necessary.”
True nutjobs. These are the militants now being praised for their noble work in laying down the groundwork for a market economy.
Heil!
December 11th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
Hola Marc. I have been on the phone and emailing much of the past 24 hours to friends in the US and family in Chile. Yep, you are right on about Patria y Libertad. I recall some of those candy asses when I was a kid.
Here is a refreshing anecdote that my sister (who just relocated there after most of her life in the US) told me:
Today at the private school that my US-dollar enabled sister pays up the ass because thanks to Pinochet public education sucks ( I’m a public school teacher in the US, and my sister and only attended public schools here) my 9 year old, NYC-born, publiuc school educated niece who has only lived in Chile one year heard some kid in religion class ask, ” Can we pray for general Pinochet?”
The religion teacher (probaly a scared woman who makes no living wage) said to this rich kid, ” sure”, and proceeded to lead the class in prayer for the fascist. But my niece publicly REFUSED to pray for this asshole along with 3 other kids . She said right then and there she’ d rather pray “for her aunt’s deceased baby” ,and when other kids kids said “he was a good man” she responded, “He was NOT!”.
Sadly the momios are there, and here.
My brother in law and sister also mentioned that this creep is to have a funeral procession at an odd time , like 4 AM ,so as to not attract too much busy public ( read: working class) attention.
My brother in law is claiming he will throw eggs at he asshole’s parade.
Your writing on Pinochet everywhere has been stellar these days, Marc. This fucker got you in the gut, but liek you said, ” The color of blood is never forgotten”. My classes will read your words.
Gracias, compadre.
Venceremos.
December 11th, 2006 at 9:08 pm
Marc, I read your Salon. com piece and laughed, amidst all the seething pain, anger, recollections and catharsis.
In 1971, I was 8 years old and a hellraising kid who had just arrived in Chile from 2 years in Los Angeles, CA , USA. In the (democratic!) ferment that was Chile then, my U. de Chile-attending mom, as a joke, nicknamed me “Lulo Pinochet” ( the young man’s name!) ” after hearing of that ” radical agitator” in the news. I was lovingly called “Pino” by my mom… until September 1973.
What happend to Lulo Pinochet? I wonder what his uncle had in store for him.
I’m still a radical agitator.
Gracias, Lulo, AKA “Pino”
December 12th, 2006 at 1:03 am
“Am I the only one who thinks that Hitchens piece, while in a large sense true, advances his own political agenda”–jcummings
Hitchens may be wrong on Iraq, but he gets it right here in my opinion. Hitchens may have gone off the rails on Iraq and some other issues, but he feels that he is consistent with his longstanding principles, and the obsession with his “betrayal” says as much about the obsessors as the obsessee. For comparison, we might wonder what David Horowitz would say about Pinochet, and perhaps has said–personally though I don’t care enough to look.
December 12th, 2006 at 1:19 am
The Department of Defense has identified 2,917 American service members who have died since the start of the Iraq war. It confirmed the deaths of the following Americans yesterday:
McCLUNG, Megan M., 34, Maj., Marines; Coupeville, Wash.; First Marine Expeditionary Force Headquarters Group.
WATSON, Cody G., 21, Lance Cpl., Marines; Oxford, Ala.; Second Marine Division
December 12th, 2006 at 4:27 am
Did you wonder who Megan McClung was? I did:
http://www.tnr.com/blog/theplank?pid=63846
December 12th, 2006 at 4:41 am
Ok, this makes it. My moron’ometer has already tipped off the scale. Mr Cooper, NeoDude and a couple others can feel satisfied.
So I publicly support dictators because I absolutely oppose their cling to power being severed from the historical context? Yea, sure, after all “sanctimonious, murderous, moronic psycopath” is, you know, the kind of thing we would all like to see written in our epitaphs. I sure was praising Franco there. So I guess trying to educate the public in the atrocities of Batista, automatically turns anyone into a Castro fanboy. Even after describing him as a “murderous bastard” as I did with Pinochet. Right
You know, I have it well deserved for trying to reason with a bunch of extremist liberals. Go back to patting each other on the back.
December 12th, 2006 at 7:39 am
Even after describing him as a “murderous bastard” as I did with Pinochet.
“Our Bastards”…isn’t that what American right-wing nationalists used to call the dictators they favored?
December 12th, 2006 at 8:15 am
As Hitchens admitted in regards to a Cockburn column that asserted that he never as “loyal” in the first place, he confrirmed this. So there was no betrayal…just a natural progression. My issue is that he couldn’t have stoppoed himself from inserting his new persona into what was mostly an excellent piece of writing…and his daft comment about “free marketeers dont’ rely on torture.” which stands in the face of free marketeer reality.
December 12th, 2006 at 8:40 am
No matter what the topic, Balter and some others maintain “it’s all about Iraq.” Pinochet is about Iraq, Air America is about Iraq, …. Why, they can probably believe that the BCS Championship is somehow about Iraq. Sometimes a picture is just a picture without having to read far-fetched interpretations into it. Get some professional help.
As far a Pinochet is concerned, there’s nothing that I can add that Marc and others haven’t covered, but I’m fairly certain that Pinochet is not connected to the Iraq war.
December 12th, 2006 at 8:46 am
And just what, Balter, might that “says more” be; as you carry water for the most bloodthirty and remorseless shill for Bush’s invasion of Iraq? No surprise you don’t want to check in with Horowitz, that level of denial is central to toeing the Cooper line.
It should be noted, and shame on you Cummings not for pointing it out, that Nixon and Kissinger get away VERY lightly not only in Hitchens piece, but in ALL THREE of Marc Coopers. We can understand Hitchens not want to say to much these days about his neocon ally, but what’s with our host? It might be argued they were continuing terrible policy born in previous adminastrations, obviously including Kennedy/Johnson; still it is a bit surprising you have to go to Counterpunch for the whole story.
December 12th, 2006 at 10:01 am
Ok NeoDude. So the expression “bastard” is not derogatory enough. In fact you take it as kind of a compliment for the recipients, isn’t it? So let’s rephrase it in a way you understand.
In my view, Franco and Pinochet are worse than a southern republican war veteran cracker ass driving his confederate emblazoned SUV hearing the Michael Savage show while heading for Walmart in order to buy a plincking gun for his homeschooled kid.
Do you get it now? I hope that clears all doubts.
December 12th, 2006 at 10:08 am
If I hear the morally equivalency argument about Pinochet not being as bad as Castro again, I will scream. Pinochet led a coup that overthrew a democratically elected government. That government might have turned out to be disastrous, but we’ll never know will we? He murdered at least 3000 people and tortured countless others. Can we agree that these are bad things? Grumpy old man uses the “breaking a few eggs” metaphor. If you’re one of the eggs that was broken, Chile’s comparative economic success today isn’t much comfort.
And as for the “everyone thought Saddam had WMD” argument, that may be true, but we didn’t give UN weapons inspectors time to prove that to be untrue. Scott Ritter was among the better informed experts who didn’t think that there were WMD in Iraq, but no one wanted to hear truths that didn’t conform to their already formed conclusions.
December 12th, 2006 at 10:19 am
It seems that most other intelligence agencies believed that Hussein may have had some WMD, but not enough to be a threat, or at least, not enough to start an invasion and occupation killing hundreds-of-thousands over.
Especially since the original cause for much of the mass murder was kicking-it large in Afghanistan/Pakistan.
December 12th, 2006 at 10:56 am
“that level of denial is central to toeing the Cooper line.”
Wow, Marc’s got his own line now! I thought he was just giving his opinion like any blogger, but this raises him to the level of a caudillo. I’m sure Marc will be pleased to hear how much power he has.
Some people put a lot more energy into hating Hitchens than they do into fighting the war he supports. Get your priorities straight.
December 12th, 2006 at 11:11 am
Wow, Marc’s got his own line now!
I want my own line!
December 12th, 2006 at 11:46 am
I hope you’ve read this far through many inane comments, Marc. Thank you for your writing on this. I’ve been online for days and yours is the best I’ve seen. I appreciate your work
December 12th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Marc -
The Salon article was great. Thanks for the education.
December 12th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
Somebody tell the Pinochites to dress up a little for the General. And tuck in that shirt! When did fascism get so lax?
Rummy, Air America, and Pinochet in one week. I can live with that.
December 12th, 2006 at 1:00 pm
I will tell you who is connected to the Iraq war, and that is Woody. Without the votes of Woody and the millions of other Americans who wanted a president just as stupid as they are, there would be no war in Iraq.
December 12th, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Woody is about the Iraq war. It was bound to come out. Maybe you need to consider that the conflict was always there and would be played out eventually, with or without me–and, the sooner the better to end the suffering under Hussein. I think I’ll scream if someone sends me a Christmas card that mentions Iraq.
December 12th, 2006 at 7:25 pm
Don’t scream Woody.
Yes, I usually, at some point, take a deep breath and read thru all the comments.
A couple of last comments from me on this thread:
Regarding Left-Wing Nut Job K Nardy’s accusation that both yours truly and Hitchens are soft on Kissinger, boy, do I have some BAAADDD news for you. Comrade, both Hitchens and I were sworn witnesses in the Chilean criminal investigation of Dr.K conducted by the wonderful Judge Guzman. Appearing in his Santiago chambers and doing what little I could do to get Henry indicted was one of the best days of my life. There’s also the tiny detail that Hitchens wrote an entire book-length bill of indictment of K, titled The Trials of Henry Kissinger.
So Mr. Nardy here’s my real “line:” Go take a flying leap at a donut (and dont forget to talke your copy of Revolutionary Worker with you).
Now the really awful news Woody. THERE IS A CHILE/IRAQ connection.
Chile and Pinochet’s number one arms merchant, Carlos Cardoen was also a major supplier to Saddam’s WMD program! read aand it weep at this link:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/03/02/CM89478.DTL
Everyone stinks in this mess. Chile’s former Socialist President Ricardo Lagos was happy to get big campaign bucks from this same scumbag.
And the greatest touch of all.. Pinochet butt buddy Cardoen has also been a major investor in and partner with the Cuban government . In the ag industry.
Doesnt life suck?
December 13th, 2006 at 12:04 pm
It may take all six degrees to get to Kevin Bacon, but it seems that most everyone is no more than two degrees from Iraq. It’s a good thing that we went in there.
And, when I think about it, Babylon, the ancient nation occupying the land where Iraq lies, and Jesus are both mentioned in the Bible and Jesus in on my Christmas cards! I even learned that the Wise Men came from Babylon!
Well, at least it’s good to know that Marc Cooper has no connections there.
December 13th, 2006 at 5:13 pm
“the Wise Men came from Babylon”
It’s generally believed that the Wise Men were Zoroastrian priests (”Magi”) from Persia, not Mesopotamia as you suggest.
For myself, I’m sending out Christmas cards this year picturing the Slaughter of the Innocents in Bethlehem by King Herod, the bloody finale to the Nativity story that has most often gotten short shrift by the feel-good, secular “Happy Holiday’s” crowd. Hopefully Bill O’Reilly will pick up on the urgent need to emphasize this full Biblical aspect of Christmas and get rid of ridiculous “liberal” Xmas crap like Rudolph and Santa Claus which has been drawing our attention away from recognition of just how quickly things got rough for the Baby Jesus.
December 13th, 2006 at 5:54 pm
I forgot to mention. Everyone (a slight exageration) is happy that Reg has resurfaced here. Some emailers were worried that he might have been captured and sent off to Gitmo. Or that his body and soul had been possessed by Mark York!I wrote them back and told them I was hoping he was absent due only to periodic and voluntary electro-shock therapy sessions.
December 13th, 2006 at 6:06 pm
Reg was probably looking for a line. I misplaced mine. If someone sees it please let me know.
December 13th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
Marc-
I want to clarify my position. I do it not to appease the hate filled words that have been pouring from the likes of neo?, et al, rather to acknowledge that you have correctly noted that the murderous actions of Pinochet cannot be accepted without question.
First, I am not here to excuse Pinochet. The crimes that are alleged are very serious. I will thus agree that I have spoken too favorably of Pinochet. Mea culpa.
Second, I remain steadfast that we must understand Pinochet’s actions in the social and political context that they were taken. Allende and his fellow socialists were actively “stealing” our nation. Many of his actions to seize businesses were done in a highly irregular manner. The other parties were indignant and protested. He rolled right over them.
Third, Allende was a political hack who seriously abused the power of his position. The Congress of Chile clearly caller this issue out before his fall. His actions steered the nation into the disaster that followed.
Forth, Allende did draw upon foreign powers to further his political position. This is well documented.
Fifth, you have been intellectually dishonest to date in how you have presented the situation in Chile at the time of Pinochet’s actions. Your representation of the situation rings false. The notion that Allende was a visionary leading the people of Chile with their open support is FALSE. The congress was fighting him all the way. The business community was fighting him all the way. Popular support for Allende was low. Allende was actively employing foreign powers to push his political agenda against his opponents.
Sixth, It is now time for us Chileans to accept that we must learn that the rule of law must be acted upon in practice and spirit. In addition, they must appreciate that any political movement that seeks to hijack the rule of law for the “common good” or pragmatics must be resisted.
In summary, Pinochet was a Dictator who like all others of the ilk brought unnecessary pain and suffering to his nation. Allende was the chief architect of the death spiral that culminated in Pinochet’s assent. I am sure that you will find my condemnation of Allende imputable. I posit that if you reflect on why you will conclude rightly that you will have to accept responsibility for partaking in the raping of the Chilean people.
December 14th, 2006 at 9:00 am
“I posit that if you reflect on why, you (Marc) will conclude rightly that you will have to accept responsibility for partaking in the raping of the Chilean people.” (But of course) “we must understand Pinochet’s actions in the social and political context that they were taken.”
Yeah, Marc’s comrades had, metaphorically speaking, taken to wearing those tacky short, red skirts that, unfortunately, are the root cause of rape when the men in uniform assert themselves. Time for the victims of the alledgedly-rapacious Pinochet - and their allies like Marc - to accept ultimate responsibility for any (admittedly regrettable) agony the General understandably may inflicted on them in the course of saving Chile.
Now that xavier has, with great nuance and a remarkably even hand, clarified the burden of guilt for this unfortunate episode (Allende Did It!) - without, of course, indulging in any excuse-mongering for Pinochet - could we get an abject apology from Marc for his crimes against the Chilean people and move on ?
December 14th, 2006 at 9:11 am
Incidentally, Marc I was just out of the country for a bit and then absorbed in family matters, so no shock therapy.
Isn’t “shock therapy” a term used to describe the Pinochet-Friedmanite economic program ?
December 14th, 2006 at 11:28 am
Yes how nice to be remembered. I’ll pass it on.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:42 am
reg: It’s generally believed that the Wise Men were Zoroastrian priests (”Magi”) from Persia, not Mesopotamia as you suggest.
reg, if I said that grits came from Alabama you would say that they really came from somewhere else. I don’t know about the “generally believed” part, unless you mean “generally believed” in the same sense that there is a “consensus” on global warming and that the debate is over.
It really doesn’t matter, but there is a lot of authority that contradicts your “general belief.” The truth is, no one is sure. This is supported by numerous links that I could provide and that you would reject because they came from google. But, here is what one scholar concluded:
The conclusion is then that the visiting Magi were probably Jewish astrologers who were the descendants of the original slaves captured by the Persians in the sack of Babylon and who were thus interested in the fulfilment of the Messianic prophesies made as early as the 8th Century BC.
The people in the areas of Iraq and Iran didn’t like the Jewish people back then. Too bad that Jimmy Carter didn’t live in that era to bring peace and write some scrolls that could end up in the Bible. In any event, if the Wise Men were not from Babylon, they had to walk through it.
Did Curt Shilling come from Baltimore, Houston, Philadelphia, Arizona, Boston, or Alaska? It just depends upon where you want to start and how bad you want to research something just to say that you were right and someone else is wrong.
Doesn’t Europe miss you? Shouldn’t you go back?
December 14th, 2006 at 11:43 am
Naturally, I messed up on ending the first itallics.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:49 am
Xavier, porbrecito, living in a world of sterlie psychological construction. I ve absolutely nothing to apologize for.
But I am curious.. do u lve in Las Condes? La Dehesa? Near Apoquindo?
Ur also obviously a young man, didnt live thru the Allende perriod and are relying on some pretty skewed views of ur own history. Yoo bad becuase otherwise you sound like a smart guy.
December 14th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Woody, your “magi” theory is coming, so far as I can tell, mostly from contemporary fundamentalist “scholars” intent on scavenging indications of fulfillment of various scraps of old testament prophecies. To put this “alternative theory” forward as a certain or even a “most credible” conclusion - since it contradicts all original interpretations and requires some rather extensive, round-about speculation rather than relying on a historical understanding of the origins of the Zoroastrian tradition and where it was based, which was Persia - offers real insight into your approach to deducing what you claim as knowledge. You made a statement as fact regarding interpretation of a blbilical tale that is the least likely of all extant explanations. Yes, while there’s no disputing the origin of this class of priests as Persian, such tales are open to speculative deduction and all things are possible. But there’s no justification for repeatedly selling the improbable as “fact” - which you’ve done with damn near every issue discussed here from Iraq to global warming. Take your head out of your ass for a change…
December 14th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
“in the same sense that there is a “consensus” on global warming and that the debate is over.”
There is. Only those paid not to be purport not to believe it. But science is not a belief system. It’s a testing process. That makes it a proven fact. If it isn’t then show your work that will hold up to scientific scrutiny. Those would be your kind of people Woodrow. Deniervillains all.
December 14th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
reg, the correct answer, as I said, is that no one knows–it’s all speculation. I wasn’t trying to relate a “fact,” as what I was writing was a little tongue-in-cheek and really didn’t matter. But, I forgot that I was communicating with people with no sense of humor.
One of the bases of the theory that the Wise Men came from Babylon is that the people from that area had the necessary and related understanding of astronomy while the people from the area of Persia did not–and, people who are not contemporary have speculated the same. But, you know everything so I’ll inform the Vatican, the Library of Congress, and Ernest Angley to throw out everything that contradicts you.
publius, please give me the scientific proof from your testing process that mankind is primarily responsible for global warming and that global warming will soon result in the flooding of coastal cities per Al Gore. I think your “science” comes up short, so forgive me for not buying in and wanting to take 20% of our GNP to fight an unproven. I take pride in not throwing away money.
December 14th, 2006 at 5:39 pm
“One of the bases of the theory that the Wise Men came from Babylon”
Good stuff! Now if you can just get to work on the theory of how many angels can fit on a pinhead, what the harps in heaven are made of, and how Santa Clause can deliver presents to all the children of the world in one evening, then we’ll really be getting somewhere!
Sigh, you right-wing fundies would do well to stop all your fuzzy right-brain thinking and start learning to use logical reasoning and the scientific method. Fortunately for us, your kind hasn’t ruined America’s standing as the world’s center of scientific progress. Yet.
December 14th, 2006 at 5:54 pm
Samuel, right-wing people are conservative, use logic rather than emotions, and are left-brained. We were in classes while the others were out protesting and smoking weed.
Do you know what is the absolute maximum number of years that carbon dating is useful? That has been an important question on this site.
Hint: Iraq is related in some way…surely.
December 14th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
So Woody’s relying for his highly “left-brained logic rather than emotions” on Ernest “Untold Multitudes Have Been Healed As They Put Their Hand Against Mine On The TV Screen” Angley, the crazy televangelist ???
I love it. And I rest my case…
December 14th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
Incidentally, Woody, I doubt that the Library of Congress has taken an official position on the national origin of the 3 Wise Men. But I’m not infallible (like the guy at the Vatican, which you also cite) so I could be wrong.
December 14th, 2006 at 7:01 pm
PS - since I have no sense of humor, I am NOT rolling on the floor laughing at your citations.
December 14th, 2006 at 8:14 pm
reg, some things are meant to solicit a smile and others are meant to be belly laughers. I doubt that you have the ability to know the difference and to do either. And, to not see the joke about Earnest Angely and to attack me with that just proves that you’re not as bright as you would like everyone to think.
More on global warming: Stick this in your ear
Be sure to take this seriously.
December 14th, 2006 at 8:23 pm
How could I tell that your citing some complete moron was a joke when you do that all of the time?
December 14th, 2006 at 8:27 pm
Is that you, Xavier, one of those saluting the corpse in the manner he and you find correct?
December 15th, 2006 at 2:36 am
Grow up, those 3000 were casualties of war. Iwo Jima? 6 thousand killed, thirteen thousand wounded. For one island.
I hate to break it to you, but to save MY country from being sold out to Moscow I’d happily kill three hundred thousand, including you and your family.
Communists, like nazis, deserve to die.
December 15th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
“and that global warming will soon result in the flooding of coastal cities”
No one is saying this including Al Gore. It will rise a meter every 100 years at this rate. That’s three feet and a conservative estimate.
The CO2 is measurable, and so is the global mean rise of 1 degree Celsius this century. This is proven. Fixing it will generate income and increase the GDP not detract from it.
December 15th, 2006 at 3:27 pm
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=299
December 15th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
Marc,
As much as I enjoy the pointless arguing over three ancient wise men and global warming, I’d like to ask a question about the topic at hand. Have you read the piece on Allende over at chicagoboyz?
I’m most curious about your recollection of a document Dorta calls the “Statute of Democratic Guarentees”. Did that agreement actually exist, and did he represent it accurately? Based on Dorta’s article, the legitimacy of the coup seems to hang on the document and the political situation surrounding its inception.
December 16th, 2006 at 9:47 pm
Marc-
You are indeed self-righteous. I unlike you have have no blood stains on my hands or soul. You are the poor soul my friend. My youth, old man has two advantages in this case. One, I was not a participant like you in this bloody orgy that Pinochet and Allende (and his socialist and communist stooges) engaged in. I am merely a victim of the crimes perpetuated upon a democratic nation and its people by Allende and then Pinochet. Second, my loyalty is only to the truth. I can only hope now with Pinochet’s death that the Communists and socialists finally speak to their role in this bloody orgy. I like many Chileans know that the socialists and communists have blood on their hands. We also know they do not have the courage to confess their sins. Do you have the courage to come clean or will you hide behind your American citizenship and liberal calling card?
Old man time is ticking come clean your youthful indiscretions can be confessed before you leave us.
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January 23rd, 2007 at 11:09 am
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January 16th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
WHY THE USA HAD TO HELP IN THE KILLINGS IN CHILE?
DID THEY WANT OUR COPPER AS THEY WANT NOW IRAKI OIL?
WAS IT WORTH OF?
IS IT WORTH OF NOW?
KILLINGS WILL NOT STOP, THAT IS WHAT MAN IS MADE OF, HATRED.
SO, HELP ME GOD TO LIVE IN THIS KIND OF WORLD
May 13th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
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