Que Paso con el Grande Backlash?
When a half-million marched in downtown Los Angeles March 25 for immigrants’ rights many observers (freely challenged on this site) made dire predictions about some ominous xenophobic backlash that would be provoked by Mexicans out in the streets waving Mexican flags.
Two weeks later we can now confidently say, Que paso, ‘mano?
What’s happened, of course, is a startling, still mounting movement totally in the other direction:
– Another half-million marching Sunday in Dallas, no less. This time waving many more American than Mexican flags, muchas gracias.
– Sixty thousand or more coming out in San Diego. Tens of thousands more in Forth Worth, Miami, Detroit and even in places as unlikely as Boise, Des Moines and St. Paul.
– And as you read this, on Monday, even larger nationally-co-ordinated demonstrations are taking place in 140 cities from Washington D.C. to New York to Los Angeles. Preliminary reports are predicting a turn-out of two million or more.
So, yes, immigration has become a searing hot-button political issue. But the pro-immigration forces have seized the clear and rather startling momentum.
Even more remarkable is how this most massive of political mobilizations of recent years is taking place completely independent of both political parties. Excellent! Let the Two Party Hacks scramble and scurry to catch up with a surging reality that has totally escaped their control and influence. Maybe that’s exactly why this movement is showing so much energy and vibrance — it’s unfettered by the lumbering, cautious calculations of American Political Leadership [sic]. Look no further than California where the Republican Governor and his two major Democratic rivals are more or less invisible on this issue (well, to be fair to Arnold, he did screw up last year when he briefly and rather disastrously seemed to endorse the Minutemen).
A couple of Spanish-language radio and TV stations in urban centers like L.A. and — yes– Dallas emerge on the scene with more political clout and resonance than a chamber full of gasbag Senators.
Those same gasbags — by the way– after blocking a vote last Friday on compromise legislation that would have allowed the majority of undocumented millions living in America to come out of the shadows, are now busily promising that as soon as they come back from their two- week recess they will really, honestly, for sure get back to passing an immigration reform bill.
Perhaps. What we do know for sure is that neither party can afford to shrug off or ignore the surging street rallies materializing before their eyes. Indeed, the consensus of news reports coming in over the weekend agree that this burgeoning immigrants’ rights movement will pressure Congress to act in a more positive way. Neither party can afford to alienate a growing Latino voter bloc. And they can all do the math. While the “illegals” can’t vote, they have millions of cousins, uncles and even children who can — and will. How many House seats (not to mention electoral college votes) would an immigrant-bashing ploy now cost the GOP in crucial battleground, swing states like New Mexico, Arizona and Colorado?
I said this last week, but if you’ll pardon me I’ll repeat it once more. Exactly one year ago, a clueless pack of media traipsed behind 200 self-appointed Minutemen on the Arizona border and declared that those lawn-chair militias were just the tip of a national iceberg — a mountainous but silent majority fed up with and ready to act against illegal immigrants.
Today, once again there’s still only a hundred or so Minutemen back out on the line, playing with walkie-talkies and fingering their sidearms. Meanwhile, a couple of million others are out –peacefully — today in dozens of American cities clamoring for a policy that might actually begin to match our reality.
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I’m not sure what this all this is, Mr. Jones. But something’s definitely happening.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:09 am
Looks like the open borders / amnesty ideas will win.
The fence being built will be part of the price.
April 10th, 2006 at 6:10 am
“The fence being built will be part of the price.”
Tom, I think we should make a bet where we contribute to each other’s favorite charities if this fence is or is not built. I say it won’t ever be and I’m willing to contribute $100 to your charity if I lose, you do the same for mine if I win. Let me know how long you want to give the fence before you concede it is not happening.
April 10th, 2006 at 6:11 am
PS–I hope Marc won’t be shocked, shocked! that gambling is going on here. Or should we take the action to Vegas?
April 10th, 2006 at 6:59 am
This country will not be better for allowing illegal immigrants to thumb their collective noses at our laws and sending a message to other outsiders that they can do the same.
This movement might seem spontaneous, but there are well-organized leftist groups stirring it up and pushing it ahead. The normally favor movements that cause problems for our nation and further a socialist agenda–especially by using “workers.”
I previoulsy likened this “illegal immigrants’ rights” movement to an army that crossed over the border one-by-one and organized here armed with the propaganda and intent to take over much of our nation. Of course, the likes of liberals like Michael Balter, comfortable in France, laughed. I’m not laughing and neither are the majority of American citizens. I’m here and I see the problems we have and the problems ahead–and, I’m standing my ground to defend our values and way of life.
Here’s Neal Boortz’s similar views on the “invaders,” but he goes into more depth about what is behind this movement–(and, even mentions much loved Michelle Malkin.) [ http://boortz.com/nuze/200604/04102006.html#mexicans ]
Let’s address some of the language being used here. First of all, these aren’t “immigrants.” They’re invaders. This is not immigration. This is an invasion. In Mexican magazines they talk about “re-conquering” cities like Dallas and New York. They are, as Michelle Malkin calls them, “reconquistadors.” They write that “With all due respect, Los Angeles is ours.” They carry Mexican flags in their protests, and shirts emblazoned with the word “Mexico.” Many, if not most, of these people have no desire to really become Americans. They want to take advantage of living in America without assimilating into our society.
Before, I paid these illegal immigrants little attention except to gripe when they drove 30 MPH on the expressways. Now, I see a bigger threat than dangerous driving–and, I’ve learned that we need to oppose them by forcing them to return to their country by withholding jobs and benefits and that we need to give priority to guarding our borders.
Boortz went on to explain another reason that these protests have caught fire:
What is fueling these protests? One thing: A fear that the laws of this country might actually be enforced. A fear that people might actually be prevented from crossing our borders illegally, and a fear that those who break the law every single day of their lives by just being here might actually have to face the consequences for their illegal actions. They say that they are not criminals. Sorry, if they’re here illegal, they are criminals.
In September, the Braves are sponsoring a “Hispanic Family Night” promotion at Turner Field. Let’s hope that the attendees don’t invite any more family from south of the border(?) to join them. We have enough. Maybe the INS will be there with a fleet of buses for what could be referred to as a “good start.”
Our economy can weather this. In fact, I found it ironic, as I watched a series on the Presidents this weekend on the Histroy Channel, that arguments used against ending slavery by President Fillmore sounded just like the economic arguments used to justify keeping the illegal immigrants in this country–our economy cannot take the impact that would cause. If anyone is really concerned about the economic impact (which, honestly, you’re not,) get over it. If it’s important, then “WE can do it”–and, we have done it before.
Unlike Tom Grey above, whom I respect, I’m going to support one thing–sending all illegal immigrants back home and making punishment of returning more than a bus ride back. I don’t believe that this battle has been decided by a long shot.
April 10th, 2006 at 7:15 am
The difference Marc is those Minutemen are citizens and voters. Your half million are here illegally. Their voices do not count, or at least should not. Nice to see them “come out of the shadows” for a nice day in the sun.
The predictions of xenophobic backlash were absurd then and now. What is real is the overwhelming majority of Americans want the fence that our expat wants to bet against. We also welcome legal immigrants with open arms.
April 10th, 2006 at 7:31 am
Balter, Tom Grey knows better than I how he meant his statement, but I took it to mean that the fence would not be completed–which is part of the price, as it was referred, or sacrifice to our defense to allow an open border.
April 10th, 2006 at 7:35 am
Well, if I misunderstood Tom then I guess the bet is off! Either way, there will not be open borders and there will be no fence. What there will be, I hope, is something like Marc has argued for, a compromise that everyone can live with except the xenophobes and the racists who think that only illegal immigrants drive slowly on the highways.
April 10th, 2006 at 7:46 am
I have only paid scant attention to this issue because I find it both confusing and for some reason depressing; and I don’t have a strong opinion on it.
Here’s what confuses me. I have a vague imrpession that some years ago we did something similar: liberalized things for those already here and combined that with a promise to be tougher in the future. And now we’re doing it again, with no more evidence that we’ll actually be able to be tough in the future this time as opposed to the failure before.
Is that an accurate impression? Serious question.
In general, I’m beginning to get a queasy feeling that the left and the media are being once again disingenuous in how this issue is being discussed. For example, the local Sta-Trib’s coverage of the rally in St. Paul is stunning. The print headline is something along the lines of “thousands rally for dignity for immigrants.” In the first two-thirds of the article there is not one mention of the fact that we are in fact talking about illegal immigrants; that reality is left to the reporter’s glancing coverage of a small group of “opponents of illegal immigration” “marching in circles” and coupling the issue in a quote a demanding that immigrants speak English.
The “article” was pure cheerleading. Seriously – it makes me want to join the other side.
April 10th, 2006 at 7:51 am
“a clueless pack of media traipsed behind 200 self-appointed Minutemen on the Arizona border”
including one Marc Cooper.
April 10th, 2006 at 8:27 am
How are all these har-working people that are only here to work and make their lives better able to get so much time off to attend protests?
April 10th, 2006 at 8:28 am
I think it depends on what you consider to be success for the illegals. My experience here in flyover country is that we don’t care much for demonstrations or demonstrators. I don’t see these big marches helping illegals win over the average American citizen. As a matter of fact, it does damage the portrait of the impoverished illegal doing anything they can to feed the kids. I doubt even international ANSWER can pay them all to march.
On the other hand, these types of mass demonstrations could well have a huge effect on cowering politicians and could end up helping the illegals and their supporters to achieve their goals in this congress. My opinion is that those successes would be short-lived as there would be rapid electoral change in the US.
April 10th, 2006 at 8:33 am
Paul,
What “other side”? The racists who want a substantial answers, and enforcement of existing laws? Better to lay low, and wait until your city changes it’s laws on parking tickets, and impounding cars because unregistered, unlicensed, uninsured, and undocumented residents do not have to pay the penalties, because those penalties are unfair (Maywood, CA — “a tiny urban pocket of Los Angeles County, has abolished its traffic police because of complaints that they were unfairly picking on Latino drivers.”)
. Or your friends go on unemployment because it’s cheaper to get labor in front of the hardwood superstore, than to post at the local union hall.
The last time I was in Minnesota (about 4 years ago) there were still American high school kids (of all colors) manning the local fast food restaurants. And my friend was hiring a kid down the street to shovel snow off her sidewalk. Have things changed yet?
Yeah, you guessed it, I made the switch. I joined the “other side.” You’re right about it being depressing.
April 10th, 2006 at 8:42 am
These marches are pro-illegal rather than pro immigrant. Best not to confuse categories that way. Marching in favor of criminality requires a great deal of confidence that the law will crumble and fold. Praising such anti-legal activity means cheering for an out of control immigration policy.
April 10th, 2006 at 8:44 am
Yeah – something like that.
The whole issue is beginning to feel like a massive sneak attack by the forces who would rather feel good about themselves than actually confront hard questions.
April 10th, 2006 at 8:51 am
How fascinating that we hear SO much about the rule of LAW from Fox News and other professional immigrant-bashers while at the same time a certain WG Bush can basically put the Constitution up his behind whenever he chooses, say the law is whatever he says it is so there, and then the same O’Reillys begin to bleat “Security of America”, “Prevent Terrorism,” etc. I love hypocrisy, it’s so predictable.
April 10th, 2006 at 8:54 am
So because you believe W is breaking the law, non-liberals can never again mention the rule of law. For them to dare do that is hypocrisy. Okay.
Strong, strong point.
April 10th, 2006 at 9:58 am
Geeze…I feel like I’m living on another planet from some of the commenters here. Despite the obvious and thorny complicities that the challenge of true immigration reform represents, all I can feel is exhilarated at what’s occurring today.
After the first Gran Marche, I contacted the photographer who took that great, iconic shot that ran on the cover of the next day’s LA Times, to ask if I could buy a print of her photo.
You know the picture I mean. Marc had it on his site. It was the one showing the LA City Hall spire gleaming like it was part of some mythic city out of a Superman comic, and half million white-shirted marchers, spreading out of the photo’s frame in multiple directions, like a living carpet of flowers.
It was one of those days that you know deep down that history has turned a corner, and I wanted a reminder of it.
We ended up trading a signed print of her photo for a signed copy of my gang book. I’m having it framed and will hang it on my wall because to me it symbolizes something good and extraordinary and extremely human.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:03 am
“It was one of those days that you know deep down that history has turned a corner, and I wanted a reminder of it.”
Beautiful and eloquent words, rosedog. Let those of us who are on that rising tide of history rejoice, and leave the anti-human reactionaries behind on the side of the road bemoaning their lost nativist fantasies.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:05 am
“I have a vague impression that some years ago we did something similar: liberalized things for those already here and combined that with a promise to be tougher in the future. And now we’re doing it again, with no more evidence that we’ll actually be able to be tough in the future this time as opposed to the failure before.”
YES. THAT IS CORRECT. The 1986 bill was supposed to fix the problem forever. It DOUBLED the number of border security guards.
The problem is that those serious about border security are unwilling to face reality on the impossibility of removing 11 million people from the USA. And for too many of those able to face reality on the need for amnesty (and more LEGAL immigration from Mexico) border security talk is CHEAP TALK. Their overriding goals are cheap, exploitable labor and/or more power for La Raza, and they would like nothing more than to go through this debate again in twenty years, with an additional 20 million or so undocumented workers and their children in the mix.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:05 am
Very beautiful. Very enticing. And a perfect example of what I mean by that sneak attack description.
Maybe it’s a psychological problem on my part that I can’t let myself feel that pure joy when I become aware of other people – including “oppressed” people – who see things far differently.
N. Kristof yesterday: “An influx of hundreds of thousands more unskilled laborers would impoverish them [America's poor] further — and to me, that does not feel like compassion.”
April 10th, 2006 at 10:07 am
Balter –
So facing hard questions equals nativist reactionary fantasist?
I read something like that and it drives me further away from your point of view. it makes me think: here’s a guy morivated in part by the need to feel superior.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:08 am
Michael Balter wrote: I hope, is something like Marc has argued for, a compromise that everyone can live with except the xenophobes and the racists who think that only illegal immigrants drive slowly on the highways.
I don’t think…I know. You can’t get up to any speed with twelve riders in your car. Anyway, I realize that it’s not just the illegal immigrants who drive dangerously slow on the highways. There are the Asian women, who might be worse, but most of them appear legal. I wouldn’t sterotype bad drivers as being just one nationality.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:09 am
Well I’m sure they are on a different planet. The real one. Yours sounds like some bizarre rendition of OZ. Qucik the tin man needs oil lest he rust with his fist in the air.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:10 am
Anti-human, too? Jesus Christ, what does that contribute. You seem smarter than that. So the possibility that cheap labor business forces are one force being this – one of a basket full of complications – that doesn’t exist? Bringing it up is evil and anti-human?
April 10th, 2006 at 10:11 am
“Being this” should read “behind this.” Sorry.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:21 am
Not so much a sneak attack. A brazen push by pro-big business forces to get slave labor to produce services and goods that increase their profit margins. The small businesses, and average citizens get the positive spill-over effect of cheap labor, nannies, housekeepers, etc.
I do not believe the two opposing factions here are conservative vs. liberal. The opposing factions are the people who benefit BIG TIME, and the people who are suffering from the crunch of unchecked immigration. How can any good American not feel sympathy for people who want improve their lives? We were born of that faction. We have responded to ending abuse and bigotry.
The voters of this country, (who have become dependent on voting for their elected officials much like they vote for contestants on a reality show) vote for the best and most frequent election ads, rather than the best candidate, and that takes money. Our legislators, who have become dependent on receiving huge checks to continue their livelihoods, have been put to the test, and they are floundering.
We don’t need bickering about what ticket we vote on, or what news shows we watch. Nor do we need newspapers to tell us how to read the problems. We need to THINK, and we need to demand solutions that WORK. We need to see that our elected reps give us action, not empty laws that make no sense whatsoever. Such as asking people who have only been in the country to please go home and apply legally, and if the entrant came five years ago they should be without question given amnesty, after taking a brief trip back to their homeland. Border enforcement? Oh, well, maybe we can wait a few years to see how plan A worked.
Finally, it IS compassionate to want the best for ALL concerned, and not follow some knee-jerk reaction based on how GOOD it makes you feel. It’s just not okay to create a new groups of oppressed people to satisfy another — in the end everyone is oppressed.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:30 am
Paul from Mpls: We’ve had several amnesties over the years and all they’ve done is just made it “necessary” to have yet another amnesty. Believe it or not, Teddy Kennedy was involved in the two major previous amnesties that led to millions of illegal aliens coming here. And, of course, now he wants to do it again.
Those who support these rallies are actually supporting the “right” of anyone to come to the U.S. illegally and then make a show of force, demanding that we give them rights to which they aren’t entitled.
The subtext of these marches is that we have to capitulate, or face dire consequences.
There are certainly differences between the current situation and invasions that have occured in other countries, but there are many disturbing similarities. And, no doubt millions of American citizens will come to see those who support these rallies as akin to Quislings.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:38 am
Paul, you’re right there are some tough issues involved and they’ve been debated at lenght on some of the earlier threads. How you can find Michael Balter’s comments repugnant and not be even the least bit offended by folks like Woody and Boortz and Lynn who see immigrants as “invaders” and opportunitsts here to take advantage of us. Its political and moral folly to deny the dignity of people leaving their homes and families in search of honest work, even if you’re concerned about the effect on regular citizens.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:42 am
“Finally, it IS compassionate to want the best for ALL concerned, and not follow some knee-jerk reaction based on how GOOD it makes you feel.”
I agree, Lynn. We just may have to respectfully disagree on what that will take> Nonetheless, I continue to read the points you (and others, like reg, et al) make with interest.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:52 am
This is about money and votes. Let’s not kid ourselves. For the price of money and votes our republican and democratic congresspeople for the most part are perfectly willing to sell out our culture and sovereignity. Illegal aliens provide sub-market labor costs that penalize businesses who choose not to hire illegals (I’m one of those) and rewarding those who do by putting more money in their pockets – this makes the republicans happy. The democrats meanwhile are shamelessly, and transparently, importing votes (the offspring of illegal aliens born here and from lax voter verification processes) from another nation that they mistakenly believe will be loyal to them over time, thus ensuring their eventual domination of our government.
That it is easier for those supporting the above unethical positions to trot out the tired – and increasingly ineffective – labeling of those who disagree with them as ‘xenophopic’ and ‘racist’, than to honestly address the issues from a perspective that acknowledges and celebrates the sovereignity of our nation and inherent right of Americans to expect foreigners to follow our laws when coming to our nation is not exactly a surprise. It is an old tactic of those unable to argue their point with ethical bounds. Certainly there are xenophobes and racists who support no immigration, but their numbers are miniscule and their influence grotesquely overstated for political purposes and I think for those calling the names to feel better about themselves – ostensibly for not being xenophobic and racist.
It is disingenuous at best to claim xenophobia and racism are the driving forces behind the vast majority of American’s concern about the ongoing flow of illegal aliens entering our nation essentially unabated. Majorities of Americans support legal immigrants and effective programs to allow legal immigration. Citing xenophobia and racism as driving forces behind even a significant small fraction of those against illegal immigration is no better than claiming that all those who support illegal aliens as traitors and Americaphobes. While there are certainly traitors and Americaphobes who support illegal immigration, they are not the majority of those holding that political view.
The fact is that Americans wanting to dramatically diminish illegal immigration, are asking for no more than then human rights accorded to every nation of people under international law and by our constitution. Most nations protect their borders with enthusiasm and to a much higher degree of effectiveness than do we.
Even Ceasar Chavez was against illegal immigration and his organziation even went so far as to take violent action to try to stop it. His reason for doing so? He knew that illegal alien workers depressed wages and benefits of the legal immigrants he championed and worked so hard to help.
April 10th, 2006 at 11:01 am
I’m not quite sure when, on any post, I used the term “invader” or “opportunist” to define a people who came to this country for the same reasons my ancesters did — the same reasons, for that matter, that I would do so, if I was coming from a corrupt country.
The fact, as I see it, is that we’re experiencing overflow to the max here. I see it, and I want something done. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I am not going to name call here, because you have a different point of view on this issue. It is counter-productive. I came to this forum to see what others think, and what solutions they could offer, not bite anyone’s head off. To do so is not dignified.
April 10th, 2006 at 11:21 am
It isn’t just the need to feel superior. That’s part of it for some people I think but it actually may be too harsh. I actualyl do apologize for that to an extent. I think it’s also the strong desire – a very great human thing – to experience transcendence and glory.
I love transendence and glory. I was a goddamn Deadhead for God’s sake. I also know the Dead was about complexity at its best, not this stupid simplicity they came to stand for.
I’m pretty sure the roadies would at least be split on the question.
April 10th, 2006 at 11:35 am
Let me make my own position clear. We can debate the economics and the legislation involved in this issue all we want, and I don’t expect anyone to agree with open borders philosophy. But stereotypical remarks about the personal characters of the immigrants, and especially remarks about Latino and Asian drivers, are racist–full stop. In addition, remarks about invading armies are racist but also hypocritical, since Woody and Paul and Tom and Lynn etc would do exactly the same thing if they were in the shoes of the immigrants: Try to make their lives better. This is why some of us call for human solutions, and we will win, so get used to it.
April 10th, 2006 at 11:38 am
PS–just a remark about my living in France. I have said before that I spend time in California every year, where I am from, and I have also pointed out that Paris is a very cosmopolitan city. That is where I am coming from: An American citizen with an internationalist outlook. Try it on for size, and broaden your horizons.
April 10th, 2006 at 11:46 am
Michael, you live in France? I think the troubles in France, particularly in unemployment among the kids of a previous generation of “guest workers” create a cautionary narrative for the US. Sure, we have work for lots of poor, low skilled people now. What about the next recession? They won’t just go home, because America during a recession is better than Mexico. Kind of like France in the suburbs is better than Algeria or Morocco.
April 10th, 2006 at 11:55 am
The best solution for America, Mexico, and their people would be if these Mexican citizens stayed in their own country and marched in their own streets demanding reform. If you want to be humanitarian, search for the root cause and don’t make things worse by discouraging reforms in Mexico and by so doing undermining our political system.
And, if millions of American citizens entered France illegally and then formed a political bloc and made shows of physical force, even the French would consider that an invasion. There are indeed differences between what’s occuring now and a classic invasion, but there are similarities.
And, here’s a legal question: if any of these foreign citizens became violent or formed an insurgency of some kind, would those who “overtly” supported their acts be guilty of treason?
April 10th, 2006 at 11:57 am
Paul, trying to tell people that you are a decent guy will get you no where. If your stance is different than the idealogy espoused, in most cases you will be called a name.
Michael, There a lot of things I might do to make my life better. Demanding that the banks give me money whenever I need it would help. Ripping up and ignoring traffic violations would be wonderfully liberating. Chopping down my neighbor’s tree to get rid of the leaves would ease the the work load at home. But I don’t do them because it’s against the law, and in the case of the tree, immoral.
Improving my lot in life by crossing an illegal border is certainly something I understand, but I no longer support it, and not because I don’t have sympathy for those who do. I believe that unchecked population concentrations create a huge problem, and I see it. It affects people already here, and it will adversely affect people coming here. I believe that.
April 10th, 2006 at 11:59 am
What do you mean by “win,” MB? Totally open borders? The effective disappearance of something called the United States? The completely unified Americas? And do you assume I am automatically opposed to those things? And have you really really thought them through?
Very serious questions.
I don’t even know if I such outcomes would be bad. Soemtimes I suspect W himself sees something like that on the horizon. But if that’s what people want, say that rather than castigating the people simply pointing out that the debate is being proposed on very dishoenst grounds.
I of course do not deny that the people coming here are moral human beings following their interests. I have direct contact with these fine people every day of my working life because of where I work and its physical location in near-in south Minneapolis. The neighborhoid is being revitalized in large part due to ther efforts of Hispanic immigrants. That fact doesn’t come close to answering the questions here.
April 10th, 2006 at 12:00 pm
this is a snippet from a post made in the middle of march……..
—– go after the companies that employ the illegals? send the illegals back? penalize the ones that stay?
we are all dreaming. i have lived in california for 30 years. thousands, and i mean thousands, of small businesses hire and use millions of illegals everyday. trust me, short of a new black booted gestapo they are staying employed. any law passed to enforce some sort of penalty will probably never make it out of the court system. think prop 187 etc. so stop pulling your own chain thinking some legislation out of washington is going to change anything on the ground. send them back? assuming we could get the authority to do it (this too will sit in the courts until we are the new, new mexico) the police, national guard or military etc will not do it short of becoming some new SS. even the criminals that we should be deporting will just walk back in, led by their favorite coyote for $3,000, unless we have a fence from san diego to brownsville. 10-15 million well organized people-and they are very organized, are staying. so get over it. part of the solution is to stop adding to the size of the group. we have to build a fence before we contemplate any other measures. don’t listen to anyone who says fences do not work. they have other agendas they are not willing to discuss. ie vincente fox, among others, is against the fence
.
15 million illegals are easy to assimilate over twenty years–and guess what, despite the headlines, they want to be assimilated. but it can only work if no more are added to the mix. the folks that think the 15 million illegals are going anywhere are simply delusional. we let them in and now they are here for good. there are no laws, past , current or in the future that are going to change that. no doubt, there will be folks who get on soapboxes and pretend to write new legislation to solve the problem. the sooner we all act like adults and realists the sooner this divisive issue can be put behind us. do any of you actually think that the illegals are going to be rounded up and sent back to mexico etc? do you think funding is going to be cut to cities who harbor them? you have to be kidding. the bong smoke is clouding your vision.
the absolute best that we can accomplish within current law is to build a fence so the problem doesn’t get any bigger. a fence is cheaper and more efficient than salaried border patrols in the long run. this fence will work.
http://www.weneedafence.com/images/Fence_Idea.jpg
after that, then we can deport the bad guys during a 10-year green card period on the way to their citizenship. that’s right, their citizenship. 15 million people are not going to continue to live here as second class illegals forever without bringing the whole country down. why? because as certain as the sun comes up in the morning, 15 million will be 30 million in 25 years without a fence. we need to get our arms around these kinds of numbers. when barbara jordon put her immigration committee together in 1990 there were two million illegals. we need to seal the border and make them citizens just like the irish, italians, germans, jews etc who came before them. the fact that they got here illegally is irrelevant. they are here, get over it. they are not going to sign up for any two step convoluted green card, maybe you will- maybe you won’t, get at the end of the line samba dance. we are not going to collect any back taxes based on real/imaginary cash transactions from folks who have barely two nickels to rub together. it will cost more to collect it. the hatred and resentment it will engender will be long lasting –not to mention the crime and violence. we might be able to get a very small citizenship fee. that will pay for the fence.
i’ll make a prediction. if a secure fence is not erected at this time we will have this cicrle jerk again in twenty years and the number then will be 30 million along with their 25 million children who will be citizens. then the problem will be this
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4786/105/1600/Aztlan.jpg
not because of some dark conspiracy but because of differing birthrates. we need to start seeing the world as it is, not as we hope it would be.
riddle me this……… you folks who hide behind the thin veneer of “but its illegalâ€â€¦..
who broke the bigger law? the folks who risked life and limb to get here or the politicians/bureaucrats who failed to enforce the state and federal laws to protect and seal the borders? conference after conference, committee after committee since the 70’s recommended closing the border with a fence. it was left open. we need to get past this “illegal†designation. they are here and they are staying. no amount of convoluted gestapo, stalinist, nativist jib jab from the left or the right is going to change that. remember, 15 million are really over 40 million when you throw in their supporters and the larger hispanic community in general. start getting serious. the idea that the newly unemployed “illegals†you would create, with these new ridiculous remedies, are going to go home in numbers is absurd. the part we are not getting is this– it’s their country now. millions of them already have their own small businesses, families, homes etc.
————————————————-
i think an honest reading of the above addresses the yelling that is taking place on both the left and right regarding the mix of solutions that we are hearing. by not enforcing laws that were written over the last forty years has given rise to a very large economy employing and attracting illegals. attempting to clamp down on a system so large, 10-15 million people, will have to be stalinist in approach. there would be millions of unemployed just for starters. boy there’s a perfect solution. to the people on the right who are talking about felon status/deportation etc that would take gestapo like actions to execute. yes, yes its been a while since we had a good pogrom!
obviously some don’t want a fence. ok. i do, along with virtually everyone that lives at the border. since i wrote that post on march 17th events i predicted are already happening. the largest organized marches have already taken place with more to come. cities have already announced they will not enforce any laws past or future to penalize employers or illegals and the two step convoluted senate plan has crashed and burned. as luck would have it all the columnists i sent it to are talking up the fence as first option. i admit, all the senators i sent it to told me to f’k off.
i want a fence first and then citizenship for all. no questions asked after a background check. no fines, no back taxes, and a 10 year(2x the norm) green card period. wages and benefits will go up immediately without any government intervention. all the bad guys deported along with anyone who commits a felony while on a green card. if people still feel they need their pound of flesh we can charge them a very, very small citizenship fee for processing. i am just sorry to say that despite our best intentions–â€enforce the laws†is just code for “do nothing”. perhaps not for you but certainly for everybody else for the last forty years and it will remain that way for the next forty.
good fences make good neighbors……….10,000 more every week.
April 10th, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Go check out Mark in Mexico’s blog for some numbers
April 10th, 2006 at 12:39 pm
sorry this time with a link
http://markinmexico.blogspot.com/
April 10th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
I can’t believe that people are still calling for the fence solution. As I’ve said before and will say again–it’s not happening because we can’t afford it. I posted about this a few weeks ago– to really “seal” the border requires maybe 500,000 to 1,000,000 troops/paramilitaries whatever. And no one responded to that. So you all know you’re dreaming right?
You all want solutions? The commenters up thread have it right–let’s talk about what we can achieve versus pie in the sky plans that we can’t.
April 10th, 2006 at 12:53 pm
Michael Balter wrote: That is where I am coming from: An American citizen with an internationalist outlook. Try it on for size, and broaden your horizons.
Don’t make me throw up. How condescending and unjustifiably arrogant. Balter, if you’re a product of becoming an “internationlist;” then, based upon what I’ve seen, I’m keeping my roots right where I am.
L.A. and Paris don’t exactly have a lot of conservatives and religious influence that you need to expand your horizons. In your case, moving around the world hasn’t given you a broader outlook. Your horizons remained narrow and became deeper. Understand? Narrow and deeper (and worse.)
Your worldwide travels have broadened your outlook as much as someone’s outlook would be broadened by moving from Yazoo City, Mississippi to Slapout, Alabama.
Give me a break. If I want someone to preach to me, then I’ll pick someone who is smarter rather than someone who only thinks he is.
Good grief.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
I have no opinion on the fence. It bothers me on a visceral level, though I get the argumetns for it.
But it does seem to me that it doesn’t really need to be impregnable. There’s no need to keep out 100%. My perception is that it happens so much these days in part because it’s so easy and we have structurally accomodated the process, in our economy I mean.
So I doubt we need 500,000 soldiers. My gut tells me that’s based on a goal we don’t need to set. Just make it a lot harder, a lot more inconvenient in all ways.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:05 pm
“I can’t believe that people are still calling for the fence solution. As I’ve said before and will say again–it’s not happening because we can’t afford it.”
It’s not going to happen for that and all sorts of other reasons, political and otherwise. So the question is, WHY are people talking about it still? For one thing, it is a shorthand way of expressing their bigotry against Hispanics. You can be totally against illegal immigration without demonizing the people who do it; some here have that humane attitude, and they contribute to the debate whether people like me agree with them or not. For others, the immigrants are invaders, criminals, and bad drivers. Those are the bigots. You don’t need a scorecard to tell them apart.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
Michael Balter: Your unfortunate choice of condescension toward people voicing other opinions may well be ‘internationalist’, but such an attitude does not bespeak of the open minded American belief in free speech. I would not argue that such a condescending outlook is very European – at least in terms of the many elitest Euro-snobs isolated by their governments and controlled media (to an ever lessening extent though) to the brutal realities of multiculturalist driven immigration. But many of the European people I work with do not support the elistest tripe and are remarkably American in their perspectives in illegal immigration.
You want to see anti-immigration venom? Scratch the surface of the indigenous populations of any European nation – you’ll get plenty. If you live in France I’m sure that you are feeling the growing anti-immigration backlash there – though I suspect you dismissively condescend to it as well so as to isloate yourself and your fragile beliefs from such nasty realities.
Americans are quite content with leaving the European outlook and it’s ever more clear and chilling consequences to the Europeans. We want a human solution to illegal immigration, and that is one that honors and celebrates our inviolate rights as a sovereign nation and peoples, not one that sacrifices those rights at the altar of political correctness whether it be internationalist or not.
This is America Mr. Balter – so I suggest you the one that should ‘get used to it’.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
MB, it must be getting late in Paris.
I believe the fellow proposing the fence above is saying it based on the perfectly reasonable grounds (it seems to me at first glance) that if we really want to get serious about stemming the flow it is in fact the only thing that would work and that we might have the political will to do.
Reject that; show how that reasoning can only be ultimately hollow; read his response; repeat; then go ahead, call him a racist.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
Did anyone investigate the straw man of letting convicted felons in? Does this mean conicted in Mexico or since moving here illegally? That’s going to be a tough sell logically. Wouldn’t they be the ones rejected in the proposed Democratic plan?
The idea that anyone who wants some semblence of border control and residency requirements is racist when they live surrounded by predominantly hispanic cities in Los Angeles County is laughable. Sad but comical nonetheless.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:43 pm
“L.A. and Paris don’t exactly have a lot of conservatives”
Please, the place is alive with wingers, although most gravitate toward the more wealthy white enclaves in Orange County. I suspect the French have multiple factions who don’t like the purity of the French culture diluted or encroached on by foreigners.
Yazoo City has a few Democrats I’d wager as well. Woody continues to make Americans look bad.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:44 pm
tim: “to really “seal†the border requires maybe 500,000 to 1,000,000 troops/paramilitaries whatever”.
With all due respect, that is absurd. What is required to seal the border to an acceptable and enforceable degree is a credible belief that the border is patrolled by capable and competent forces to a level that significantly raises the cost of crossing the border in the minds of those want to cross illegally.
From a military point of view, it would be absurd to post one soldier every 528.2 feet (or whatever the simplistic math seems to dictate). That is most certainly not a military solution. The military operates in terms of systematic solutions which include, but are not limited to, feet on the ground, physical barriers, aerial and ground-based surveillance, operational intelligence, patrol strategies, diplomacy, coordination with non-military authorities, etc., etc., and, etc. There is simply no rational need for anything near the number of troops you cite.
Any realistic militarily solution is far more complex than the simplistic miles of border divided by number-of-troops tripe. The important concept is that when the military does take control of the border they will (without the jillion troops some calculate are needed) effectively seal the border to a far, far greater degree than we experience now. Both the real and perceived cost of crossing the border for coyotes, drug traffickers, and individuals will increase significantly – dramatically lowering the number who are willing to even try.
If we were balance the military forces on the borders with a *legitimate* and *effective* effort to prevent the hiring of illegal workers by significant and painful fines and even potentially criminal charges against offending businesses, the economics forces driving illegal immigration would change dramatically solving our problem.
At least until such time as our politicians again decide they need more voters or sub-market priced labor at the expense of our culture and sovereignty.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
Paul,
I can back up my numbers. Let’s take a look at the DMZ in Korea. There are about 500,000 South Korean troops and about 40-60k Americans. That’s for a border about 150 miles long, some of which is mountainous terrain. There are also minefields and razor wire. So let’s call it about 500,000.
Now okay I understand that there aren’t people with tanks coming across the southern border. So let’s say we need 1/10 of the forces, which comes down to about 50,000 for 150 miles. Works out to 333 people per mile.
The US-Mexican border is about 2000 miles. So we’re looking at 666,666 people to secure the border. My assumption is that the numbers from Korea are based in reality, i.e. what it takes to secure a border. Even if we needed only half of those numbers it’s till around 300,000 people, which is about 15 to 30 divisions. The Army right now has 10 active divisions.
The idea of border security is a fantasy. And I blame the Democrats as well for promoting the idea if they are elected they’ll protect the border too by doubling the number of Border Patrol. Right now Border Patrol has about 10,000 agents, or about a division. Doubling it isn’t going to really do anything.
I’m of the opinion that we have to find better ways of protecting our security than “keep out the bad guys.” Because we can’t keep them out. We need to figure out what is a better investment of our money, brittle outer defense or defense in depth.
I’m in agreement with Michael, that the worries about invasion and security are basically about bigotry, because they certainly have nothing to do with reality. If you can prove me wrong about the numbers, go for it.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
F15C,
Wrong buddy. It comes down to geography. I’m not talking about posting a soldier every 582 feet. That’s a straw man argument. I’m looking at another border and looking for a rule of thumb. Obviously that number includes numbers needed for intelligence, surveillance and so on.
That number with Korea includes of course air units etc. Other possibilities include the old East German/West German border, or perhaps Switzerland.
Incidentally the military does have rules of thumb based on numbers–that’s where Shinseki got his numbers for a proposed Iraq occupation force.
What would be even better, and what I would bow down to would be if someone had access to what the _US military_ plan to seal the border would look like in terms of numbers.
Any policy proposal that can’t even give ball park numbers is bs. I’ve shown my methodology. Show me yours. Oh wait, I bet you can’t.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
I htink F15C above says what I intended a little better. Thanks for the details but I still think you’re sort of contemplating the task from a too-secure perspective. Thsi doesn’t need to be perfect, both because any degree of success would help, and because simply making it harder – combined with slowly making the pay-off once here more problematic – would be the goal.
Still don’t know if it’s a good idea. I get the logic but the symbolismight still be bad.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
Tim, we’re not responding with numbers, we’re responding wiht logic and perespective. It’s perfectly legitimate. Obivously numbers would have to come to se if it would work; but we’re using logic to say your proof that it wouldn’t isn’t quite proof.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
“…because any degree of success would help”
This is true, and a good beginning…
April 10th, 2006 at 2:12 pm
Let me consult my calculator, and the studies that back up my beliefs. Oops, sorry it won’t work. Good thing we weren’t depending on Tim to approve plans for our first airplane, it would take Michael B a lot longer to get back and forth to France every year.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
A “faction” of yesterday’s march in San Diego included some 4 or 5,000 people who started at a Palm Sunday observance at the downtown Catholic cathedral. That reminds me that one of the most significant aspects of AB 4437 and the opposition to it is that it has targeted the Catholic, mainline Protestant and Jewish missions to feed, clothe and shelter immigrants, notwithstanding legal status. Speaking just of the Catholics, I believe there is very little sentiment to end the Church’s commitment to this ministry ( some perhaps). I think the dumbest thing Sensenbrenner and the Republicans did was to include the provision making aid and support to illegals a felony. As one local priest said yesterday, “I have no problem at all going to jail for this cause…come and get me.” Churches thruout the nation have committees, manned and womanned by average parishioners, that do nothing but support the immigrants in their areas, and it would be considered a sin to limit that support to people–Catholics, mostly–who are here with permission of the government.
In other words, the Republicans are criminalizing what Catholics and other Christian and Jewish communities do and consider to be central to their worldly purpose. I suspect they may come to regret this.
I cannot feign surprise that the outpouring onto the streets is not in response to a call from the political parties. When have electoral parties ever “led” a social movement? The anti-war movement was only vibrant for a few short weeks last summer when its focus was a non-politician, a Gold Star Mother, Cindy Sheehan. Unlike the anti-war movement in the 60s and 70s, no member of Congress has really become identified with this movement, perhaps because of the grimness of the situation that is clearly foreseeable upon the removal of all American troops (but more because so many Democrats were more than willing to sign their warmaking power over to Bush, and thus are reluctant to speak clearly about the disaster this conflict was from the outset).
So far no member of Congress is identifying with the people in the streets, at least that I know. Certainly there will be some. The subtleties of this issue, the lack of consensus on the policy to be supported by the friends of the immigrants and the reluctance of any member of congress to march behind flags of a foreigh nation all would tend to dissuade them from taking a leadership position.
Fundamentally, though, the people in the streets do not advocate a program. They are saying:”We are people, too…we are not criminals.” That is far from a working policy, but it is a feeling deeply held by citizens and non-citizens, voters and non-voters alike.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
Wow, a lot of great and insightful comments on here today–and a good range of people! I was planning to make some comments, but other people said them much better than I could: in particular, TLB, Lynn, F15C, and amyc.
One thing I can add that is related to F15C’s first comment: wouldn’t it be interesting if all of this talk about a “startling, still mounting movement” and “most massive of political mobilizations” was actually taking place in the locations that inspired the immigration in the first place–that is to say, in Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua? I think it’s clear that the problem of vastly unequal income distribution in these countries (owing to myriad sub-problems, including corruption, oligarchic rule, and racism) is simply being exported to the U.S. Think: what would happen if Mexico was, say, Bolivia, and not bordering on the U.S.? My guess is that all this mass mobilization would be focused on the Mexican government and economic institutions, similar to what you saw in Chipas in 1993 (which, not accidentally, is the Mexican state furthest from the U.S. border). And–no surprise–in Bolivia just recently.
My point is simple: people as economic agents make rational decisions, and in this case the choice between protesting the Mexican government for economic and political change vs. moving north through a porous border to obtain higher-paying jobs (and then moving back through said border to maintain a family in a cheap economy with U.S. wages) is a no-brainer. But the irony of protesting the U.S. goverment for not providing Mexican citizens with what the Mexican government fails to provide is eyebrow-raising, to say the least.
Oh, and can we cease the race-baiting charges here? It’s neither racism nor bigotry to refer to immigrants as invaders. I think it’s mean-spirited to do so, and in many ways kind of silly, but not inherently racist. Though the people at ANSWER might tend to agree with your point.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
tim,
far be from me to judge your stats without seeing them. here below however is an interview that addresses some of your ideas…….he’s there at the border everyday. a fence will take the same or less personel currently deployed. at least listen to the audio. there’s a lot more going on at the border than illegals……..
here’s a interview with a ten year border patrolman. he said most definitely that only a fence across the entire border can and will do the job. illegal immigration will grind to a halt. here’s the transcript and audio link.
Border Patrol Officer
http://www.radioblogger.com/#001520
April 10th, 2006 at 2:23 pm
I meant to say that church committees were giving aid and support to people here without permission (not “with”) of our government.
And btw, there is already a fence between US and Mexico. At one demonstration a few years ago, people on each side knocked a volleyball back and forth over it.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:24 pm
Tim with all due respect, yours is what I call the “Lite Beer” approach to border control straw men. Some lite beer producer has a current marketing pitch about the number of consumers they have and how many it takes to stretch across the US. Cute and fun to do the arithmetic, but has zero value.
“Now okay I understand that there aren’t people with tanks coming across the southern border. So let’s say we need 1/10 of the forces”
Why 1/10? Why not 1/100th or 27e12/3.1416? Explain your rationale and also explain why you ignore the contribution and force-multiplier effects of resources beyond troops.
I don’t understand why anyone who wants to honestly debate the value of using the military to control the border would focus on simply the number of troops as to do so is either ignorant or disingenuous. As presented, you have only constructed a simple arithmetically derived straw man.
The idea of border security is anything but fantasy. You can not just state that nothing will work when, none of the things you are citing make any rational sense and none of the realistic solutions proposed have been tried or shown in rational debate to have no merit.
From my perspective as a business person and former military officer, you are creating your own simplistic definition of a solution specifically designed not to work and then attempting to position it as the idea of those with whom you disagree to prove them wrong. That makes no sense.
Again, all that is needed is to raise the cost of crossing our border illegally to a level that makes it no longer economically viable. Combining that with decreased availability of jobs in the US will solve the problem to a very great degree.
Not simple certainly, but not fantasy and imminently achievable. We need only find the will to take concrete action.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:25 pm
I think you’re right about a lot of that, BC. I mean, the part about how deeply involved the religious-based “helping organizations” are in helping immigrants whether legal or not. (I work for one.) And how negatively they migth react to seeing these people called felons.
I don’t know how much that reaction – either on the helpers’ part or the immigrants’ part – has contributed to the turnouts, though. Hard to say.
What’s also weird is that here in MN and I suspect elsewhere, the anti-illegal-immigration issue as owned by the Republicans is being portrayed by the Democrats and the press as clearly a mask for anti-all-immigrants and racist in nature. That idea has taken hold, so locally, I suspect a lot of the turn-out consistned both of liberals out for a grand cause ona nice day and legal imimgrants genuinely pissed off after being (largely) lied to by the natural friends the Democrats.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
MC. Not BC. Michael Crosby.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
On an earlier thread, Marc C. noted that the “reform” prolly wouldn’t really happen; on even earlier threads it was noted (VERY humorously) that a fence “wouldn’t work”.
So, supporting a bill that authorizes the construction of a fence (which, if built wouldn’t really work) — seems the perfect end point sop to those who are against open borders. I’m not sure the fence will be built, but I’m pretty sure a promise to build the fence will be part of the reform law. No bets on this one, though — I agree that putting your money where your mouth is usually increases responsible predictions. Right now it’s too unpredictable.
What should the policy be, and why?
Arnie came out with an article in the Journal:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008209
Pretty simple: compassion for the immigrant, control the borders. No details (how convenient!)
The Libertarian solution to “illegal drugs” — legalization! This would also work for “illegal immigrants”.
Human rights are different than civilized benefits, as given by a state, companies, churches, groups, and individuals in any given locale.
Rights are “free” — nobody has to pay for them.
Free speech, free religion.
Benefits must be paid for, food, shelter, 29″ Color TV with Dolby surround sound.
Were our society more filled with honest, contractual agreements, with less benefits from the state, immigrants wouldn’t be such a problem — but most on the Left want to take from rich American humans, to give to poor American humans, and keep the really really poor, hardworking, non-American humans out; with no care about them starving or suffering.
There’s no compassion in using State power to force poor people to be poor, like Reg seems to want to do.
Increasing legal immigration is one step. Where’s the call to immediately let all those who have been waiting on waiting lists for 10 years, or 5 years, to come here legally?
Enforcement would be easy if there was a bounty available, say $1000 or more, for somebody to turn in an illegal — paid for either by the employer of the illegal, or the owner of the place they live. But such draconian enforcement seems politically unlikely.
I still prefer charging big bucks to any and all who want to come; $20 000 for legals, $40 000 for illegals — with the IRS loaning them the cash now, and looking to collect from them or their employers in the future.
Also I think sending more US citizens to Mexico on Peace Corps/ Entrepreneurship missions to start small businesses in Mexico would be good, too — using tax credits and loan forgiveness more than US gov’t cash.
The Leftist mess in Mexico, and the poverty it causes, is the main source of the problem.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
“But the irony of protesting the U.S. goverment for not providing Mexican citizens with what the Mexican government fails to provide is eyebrow-raising, to say the least.”
That’s what I’m talking about. Or, um I haven’t been, I guess… I would’ve gotten to it, but we keep getting bogged down in this “you’re a so and so, nyah, nyah, nyah..”
Thank you, Rich.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
This group will be made legal and then the powers that be will import more workers from other countries. Each group will gain less and less from being legal than the last one did while native born workers suffer.
This is the race to the bottom. That is why nations that are concerned with their populace have always had immigration controls and tariffs. Our Congress is bought and paid for be capital. They are not concerned with the citizens of America at all
April 10th, 2006 at 2:50 pm
Hola Marc: have you heard about the outburst of the “slave” Bolivian workers problem in Argentina?. Here’s a quick introduction (Spanish):
http://www.aguafuertes2004.blogspot.com/
Here’s some details:
http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/elpais/1-65206-2006-04-05.html
The problem (there and here alike) with the figures linked by Dave is that it doesen’t tell who is collecting the profits of underpaid illegal laborers.
It is not a “taxpayers vs inmigrants” conflict. It’s about greed Capitalism profiting from an out-of-control Globalisation. It seems West democracies have no questions on China’s “commie” dictators, all the way they help them to keep wages at a minimum and unions paralized in their own homes.
A wider look helps a better understanding. Keep the good job.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:56 pm
I don’t know about that fence. It did a job in one area, but I don’t know about the logistics, ecological and otherwise all along the border. Could we have that as a backup plan if the other suggestions (such as penalizing corporate giants, enforcing exisiting laws, supporting a Mexican government that will help their own citizens, and stronger border enforcement) don’t work?
And la said: “Our Congress… They are not concerned with the citizens of America at all ”
Depressing, aint it?
April 10th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
lynn,
your’s makes the most sense but sadly after 40 years of failure and with the problem reaching a critical mass (dividing the country etc) we no longer have the luxury of another failure. corporate giants. hmmm. i’m not sure they hire the most illegals. what do we do with the unemployment that results from maids, cooks etc being out of work with families to feed? support the mexican government? for the most part mexico is run by about 15 original spanish families from colonial days. sadly mexico is a bit of a corrupt cesspool. the devil is clearly in the details when we go down this road again……..
again from my march post:
here’s the real pathetic reality—virtually every congressman/woman and the president are against sealing the border. they are more worried about our image with the world, mexico and imaginary votes they may or may not get. they fudge the debate with economic/impact studies that look good but mean nothing. it is all props. read the fine print in the bills being considered.
so, you still think we are going to start solving the illegal immigrant problem inside the US while we can’t rally the consensus to close the border where the illegals enter? put down the bong, you’ve had one hit too many.
and finally to the race baiters……
the “fence†sole purpose for existence is to secure the border from illegal immigration from primarily latin america. the fact that latin america is hispanic is strictly a coincidence. if canada was a third world country i would propose the same fence. for two hundred years we controlled immigration with quotas per immigrant group. i believe jimmy carter was the moron who changed this. the chief reason for quotas was for assimilation purposes–language, culture etc…. mexico encourages illegal immigration as an outlet so as to avoid the hard choices that it should be making to rectify a pathetic economic model it inherited from the spanish. there is a reason that english speaking colonies/nations have done better than spanish or french. every time you seduce a young hispanic to flee his country you further enslave the tens of millions they leave behind.
April 10th, 2006 at 3:16 pm
Tim. I’m attacking your argument, not you personally. I readily admit I don’t know how many troops it would take to secure the border. It’s just that, based upon your argument, I don’t think you do either.
Comparisons to the Korean DMZ (which I’ve visited several times and is a very scary place) are interesting, but your excursion from there to the US/Mexico border loses something significant in the translation.
You can say 1/10th – but why? That is a key underlying assumption upon which much of the rest of you argument rests and key to your ability to dismiss the use of troops. Let me put it this way – if I say it takes 50K troops (which would make arguing for using troops easy) by selecting the appropriate fractional multiplier of the Korean DMZ force my argument is every bit as valid as yours. You need to rationalize your process more clearly and if you do so convincingly, I have no problem agreeing with you. I want a solution to the most pressing problem we have as a nation and I don’t want to waste any more time or money on useless efforts.
My point on the other hand is that to assess securing the border with the military is not a simplistic exercise and requires a systems approach. Securing the border with the military is a military exercise and would planned appropriately by people who know how to balance forces at hand with the job to be done. It is not a simple exercise in arithmetic. Any and all military plans are compromises between logistical capability and the mission to be accomplished. The military never has enough resources to execute to the ideal. All are compromised to fit with economic and logistical reality. The fact is that some plans are just lucky enough to work out better than others for reasons many times having nothing to do with the quality of the plan. But I firmly believe the job could be accomplished with reasonable resources.
However, from my point of view even if it takes a million troops to tighten the border by 95% or more, it is a small price to pay and we should do it yesterday. Would that it were so simple.
I think Rich’s comments above on the bigger economic picture are excellent. Illegal immigration is an economic problem with economic causes and cures. With a systematic approach using increased border control tactics, cracking down on those who hire illegal workers, and appropriate diplomatic arrangements with Mexico, we most certainly can gain control of our borders.
Not that I think it is going to happen given the corrupt nature of our elected officials on both sides of the aisle.
April 10th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
patrick n: “mexico encourages illegal immigration as an outlet so as to avoid the hard choices that it should be making to rectify a pathetic economic model it inherited from the spanish. there is a reason that english speaking colonies/nations have done better than spanish or french. every time you seduce a young hispanic to flee his country you further enslave the tens of millions they leave behind.”
You are correct. The dynamic is that Mexico is economically addicted to illegal immigration into Ameria and will continue a downward spiral requiring ever more American dollars wired back home by Mexican citizens. However, they know that process will not be allowed to continue forever hence their shamelessly escalating efforts to influence American politics in their favor. They, like any addict whose supply is threatened will do whatever it takes to secure that supply.
They will never do so on their own so Mexico must be forced to do whatever it takes to stand on its own and cease their insane and unsustainable dependence on illegal immigration to America. It will be painful for Mexico and Mexicans, but we can’t continue to be taken down with them.
April 10th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
patrick neid, I see your point. But in the last 40 years, the vast majority of people in this country have ignored the problem. I, myself, have not been standing at the border with a counter worrying — I just couldn’t foresee the problem, sometimes we just have other things to do like raise kids, and work, and I was foolishly believing that our legislators would protect us and the border. It wasn’t until a few years ago that I started to question what was happening here in California. Nobody is ignoring it now. Finally, the issue is being forced. (As to the maids and cooks and gardeners — I do my own housework, and I clean up my own yard. If your life is so complicated that you must hire someone for those jobs then hire legally. Lots of folks need money to feed their families, and should be paid fairly to work.) I don’t want anyone to have problems feeding their families (though I’ve never seen much evidence that starvation is a big problem here.) and there will be some sort of amnesty for most, but as long as there is the seduction of jobs, those fences just become another obstacle. I mean people are willing to DIE in the deserts. There’s got to be a way to get across that fence, or die trying. And the tunnels — does the fence stop that too?
I think the impetus is with us now, meaning the citiizens of this country, and of Mexico. Lines have been drawn, and things have to change. I hope it’s not a fence, but I don’t espouse to being the last word, and that’s why I’m here.
April 10th, 2006 at 3:49 pm
How ironic will it be when the Mexican “immigrants” are building the wall to keep the Chinese “illegals” from taking the jobs that Mexican-Americans won’t do?
Nothing creates friends like common enemies.
April 10th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
F15C:
First the force multiplier effect point. I think making a comparison to Korea takes into account the force multiplier effect of sensors/automation since I understand that our forces in Korea make extensive use of those technologies. So the baseline number is taking it into account.
Second, you’re right about the dividing factor I’m using. I am just pulling it out of thin air. It’s just a starting point–like I said, I’m interested in figuring out ballpark figures. I’m not a trained planner either , just a guy who is curious about the situation. A better way to look at the fraction would probably be to look at how many troops are necessary for surveillance along the DMZ, to include the logistical tail that keeps them there etc. I don’t have those numbers at my fingertips, and I’ll admit, I should look into it. I will do that, and if you’d do the same we could talk about it here.
The numbers I’m using, by the way, came from wikipedia searches so if people want to check my math, so to speak, that’s where I went.
And I don’t think that a fence and a million troops on the border are the best use of our security money if we’re talking about fighting terrorists/asymetrical combatants etc. My thinking along this line runs more along the lines of what John Robb has proposed, i.e. decentralized security solutions that harden critical infrastructure.
Just to make it clear where I stand on this–I think we should have a plan that gives legal residency based on job availability. I.e. if someone is working let them be here. That way, people are free and legal to organize for higher wages (yes unions) and as well, they are subject to our labor laws in terms of health and safety. This would prevent undocumented workers from causing a race to the bottom. People who wanted to come , work and be citizens could do that. We’d have to deport those who went off status by losing their job and not finding one within a preset period.
Let the market decide how many people we need here, more or less is what I’m saying.
April 10th, 2006 at 4:25 pm
One addendum:
The reason I used a fraction of the troops in Korea is because, clearly, like I said, there’s no tanks and artillery pointing at us from the Mexican side. But I’m looking for a baseline. It’s better to start thinking about what it would take to actually implement the plan that people are pushing for i.e. the fence etc.
And what I think is simplistic is thinking that security is something that comes from a fence. That is if what we’re really talking about is security.
April 10th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Tim. Very good and rational comment. I think you and may share more in common than we have differences in terms of ultimate goals. I want our nation secure from terrorism and from foreign influence and want our economy to operate for the betterment of our nation and our people.
We probably disagree on the means to those ends, but that’s ok – it’s part of being American. And, I don’t think that either one of us would want to be the one selected to solve the problem anyway…
I agree with you regarding legal status for legal workers – I would like to see it obtained through a reasonable process that assures assimilation.
April 10th, 2006 at 4:58 pm
Every time I read something with “prolly” in it I think “Polly want a cracker?” Speaking of crackers, the protestors’ logic is going to bring about exactly what Bradley said. It’ll drive majority to Sensenbrenner as a reader just told Cafferty. I tried to watch one but the ranting in spanish just didn’t do anything for me. It’s not my language. Raving about color and race all but Europeans of course since they’re the anti-christs.
As for the fence I bet we could get some cheap help to build it. Saturday Night Live thought so.
April 10th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
Tim, I don’t disagree with you about the fence. I personally like the concept, but acknowledge the cold reality that as a nation we don’t have the balls to do such a thing. We’re wussies when it comes to protecting ourselves these days.
I’d be happy to be proved wrong, but I’ve got a standing $100 bet against the wall with a friend who thinks it will be built because we’re a facist state just itiching to build a wall… I don’t lose sleep at night worrying about losing that money.
Either way though a wall alone won’t do it. As you may have noticed I prefer a systematic approach to the problem with an entire array of solutions overlapping one another to solve the problem.
As a business person who chooses not to hire illegals and knows many of my competitors do, I know that sanctions and penalties against employers who hire illegals would go a long way toward drying up the bait that lures many illegals to come here. But they have to be rigourously enforced. Ink on paper we already have – funding and resources to do something about it we don’t – and for a reason.
I appreciate your comments. Keep it up.
April 10th, 2006 at 6:53 pm
rosedog – I don’t think there’s a need to change planets. Some of the stuff being batted around is really garbage. Some of it is moonbat. And there’s more than a bit of both on what some folks might percieve to be “both sides”. I’m a pragmatist. I understand that “we” (I’m tempted to paraphrase Edmund O’Brien’s character in The Wild Bunch – “We? We? Who the hell are ‘We’ ?”) have allowed a situation to develop that we are better off ratifying – even embracing on the individual, human level – than impossibly trying to erase. We can’t. We shouldn’t. But I don’t understand what the contradiction is between wanting to figure out how we can actually enforce labor laws – including making sure we’re not expanding a class of easily exploited “illegals” – and being inclusive toward people who have become, de facto, part of our country and want to participate more fully with all of the rights and privileges of citizens. Tamar Jacoby – the sweet but dreaded Tamar Jacoby – who represents a libertarian think-tank and is, according to Marc, a fountain of wisdom – or at least “reason” (a good libertarian word) – has suggested that an electronic Social Security card could be used to enforce the legality of folks hired in workplaces that are big enough and legit enough to be required to do basic record-keeping/accounting. (This doesn’t include Erica Jong’s “nanny” or the guy’s who mow the van den Huevel’s lawn. God forbid that any right-thinking people should suffer.) Tamar also wants to import a gazillion “guest-workers” to depress the labor market – which, as Marc should acknowledge, is one of the worst ideas out there right now, aside from crucifying children on “nativist” grounds – but that’s an argument for another day. If a libertarian think-tank can live with this Stalinist proposal, so can this social democrat. (I hope my subscription to Dissent isn’t about to expire.) Why the hell does this have to be an either or – pragmatism, not emotionalism, should rule the day on both sides. Lou Dobbs is right about some stuff. Deal with it. So is Cardinal Mahoney, or whoever the fuck the localm LA guy in charge of recruiting souls to drop coins in the collection box is. I may not have a whole lot of love for either of them in their full glory, but I’m not about to get suckered by claiming that there’s one true path on this – the humanists who want open borders versus the nativists who actually give a shit about what happens to the folks who are already here who are scuffling at the bottom and who’s kids are already stuffed into schools that are disaster zones, trying to clean up after every goddam mess that the people who have maximum mobility, nannies, yardmen and who consume most of the services of janitorial, hotel and restaurant staff only read about in newspapers.
Marc is giving me a good laugh this past week. I saw “V for Vendetta” over the weekend and I realize that anyone who thinks that’s a terrific movie and that “Crash” sucks will never understand how the hell normal people across the spectrum of race and class would relate to this issue in the real world. Perhaps that’s a bit too cryptic, but I think anyone who thinks about it for a bit and who’s seen both will get it.
April 10th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
lynn,
i think the folks who would like to go the “enforce the laws” route are glossing over what that really means and why in practice it never gets done.
putting migrant farm workers aside(i have no clue what the employment numbers are and no knowledge of the industry) lets just say there are 10 million illegals with their unemployment rate at 10% that leaves 9 million working. now lets say we pass some of the suggestions voiced or enforce older laws on the books–fines etc. i think we can safely say there will be some very large numbers of unemployed. (if the fine is larger than the profit on the worker they are fired) now unemployed, how are they going to pay there rent, feed the kids etc? i mean do we think they are going to go quietly in the night. the current social services net already has holes in it. do we really want more wards of the state? that is why so many municipalities look the other way. the fed can pass all the laws it wants but the cities and states pay for them. dislocating millions of people in a economic system is right up there with brain surgery.
the other shock i think we will slowly grasp is there wouldn’t be a dramatic wage and benefit boost. most of the illegals work in the underground economy along side millions of legal residents. if i were to find out it was 80% underground vs 20% corporate i would not be shocked. very little would change in the corporate world because they are already on the books with fake ID. for the most part their ID number would change. the pay in the underground is set by a number of different variables but the main two are skill level and ability to speak spanish and english or if you prefer english and spanish. i know in the trades here in SF bay area pop. 7 million, legal, illegal everybody gets paid based on their skills. if bin laden showed up and said he could set tile like a pro he would get $30/hr. nobody cares. everybody subs everybody. only your finished product counts.
if the border is fenced, then slowly over time, a worker shortage will develop and wages will rise because of supply and demand. bad employers, the few that exist, would be put out of business as the new legal workers would have standard rights. if as i suggest we just legalize every one with a 10 year green card the real immediate changes will not take place on the wage and benefit side but on the service side. banks, insurance companies, the DMV, autos/trucks, apartments and to a lesser extent home buying. these and other areas will explode for a while as 10/15 million merge into the system. small business applications will jump as the illegals exploit their particular skill set. the landscaping company might then have a hispanic owner but the rate the homeowner pays will basically stay the same–competition sets the rate. its for these and a thousand other bits of minutiae that i say fence the border and then legalize everyone.
Occam’s razor.
this link will show where the majority of municipalites ignore federal mandates.
http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_hispanicpop.html
April 10th, 2006 at 7:00 pm
Oh yeah…on the topic posted. Anybody who thinks that political backlashes can be divined in a week or two needs a history lesson…or six. I don’t pretend to know the end of this story in terms of what one might perceive as petty party fallout that could, in fact, shape serious politics over time.
April 10th, 2006 at 7:00 pm
Nothing is normal down here reg. Aside from immovable traffic; a horde of polarized crowds competing for dollars and space.
April 10th, 2006 at 7:08 pm
“What’s happened, of course, is a startling, still mounting movement totally in the other direction”
Another one of those moments of unstoppable progress…it’s been a while. Not since the Sixties.
Halleluiah !!!!
April 10th, 2006 at 7:40 pm
WHY DOES VICENTE FOX GET A PASS!
NAFTA ruined the economy for the Mexican working-class; hundreds of thousands of maquiladoras lost their jobs and were left with nothing.
Mexico’s 1994-95 privatization of its banking and telecommunications industries thrust millions more into poverty with increased consumer prices, rising unemployment and wage and benefit cuts.
This all out privatization of the Mexican economy created a new privileged class of millionaires and billionaires. As of 2002, Mexico ranked fourth in the world in billionaires, behind the US, Japan and Germany.
Mexican families live in poverty–.unemployed, hungry, without healthcare. While the US border with Mexico is significantly under-enforced, so in effect U.S. practices a conscious policy of neglect, in order to provide a safety valve for the exploitative regime we created.
Our government turns a blind eye to the corruption in Mexico that we caused through our exploitative economic policies and the poor and working-class in the U.S. pay the price.
MIDAS TOUCH
THE BIG QUESTION: WHY IS THAT EVERY COUNTRY WE TOUCH EVOLVES INTO AN OLIGARCHY; DICTATORSHIP OR ANOTHER REPRESSIVE REGIME THAT EXPLOITS ITS OWN PEOPLE INTO ABJECT POVERTY.
WHAT’S IN IT FOR US??
Undocumented Workers give $7 Billion Annually to Social Security ….Moreover; the money paid by illegal immigrants and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration’s projections.
Ethnic advocacy” means buying favor…and votes….within the illegal immigrant community. If an immigrant doesn’t vote, he/she has relatives who do. In the 21st century, Hispanics surpassed African-Americans as the largest ethnic group in the United States.
U.S. BUSINESSES
WHO LOSES??
US businesses are allowed to pay under-market wages and benefits to undocumented workers it depresses wages for all workers in the US. As a result, Americans workers have decreased incomes, lower benefits and higher rates of poverty and hunger.
In a January 2005 World Net Daily article, a report by investment firm Bear Stearns was cited that clearly illustrates that millions of US jobs have shifted from the legal workforce “as employers have systematically replaced American workers with lower wage
IT’S EASY!
The employee provides acceptable ID that appears authentic, the employer asks no questions, and the US government looks the other way. Fake ID…Social Security cards, US permanent residency cards (i.e. “green cards”); US temporary employment authorization cards….are readily available for about $100 to $200 in every major American city.
In 1999, under President Bill Clinton, the US government collected $3.69 million in fines from 890 companies for employing undocumented workers.
In 2004, under President George Bush, the federal government collected $188,500 from 64 companies for such illegal employment practices.
And in 2004, the Bush Administration levied NO fines for US companies employing undocumented workers.
I’M ALWAYS POLITICALLY SUSPICIOUS, WHEN OUR GOVERNMENT SUPPORTS AN AGENDA THAT SCREWS WORKERS!
April 10th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Michael Crosby:
If most of what you wrote about HR4437 turns out to be wrong, will you work towards overcoming the damage done by those from whom you got your talking points?
To learn how much you’re wrong about the bill, see all the links here or here.
Of particular note, the ones responsible for the felony provision are the Democrats: Sensenbrenner wanted to remove that, but the Dems voted to keep it in.
April 10th, 2006 at 7:54 pm
Michael Balter,
I’ve had my internationalist viewpoint sneered at by the same person. Consider it a badge of honor.
The same person also seems to think I spent my early years in Alabama and while I did live in Alabama and one side of my parents comes from there, well here’s a lifetime residence chronology so one may consider the facts:
1956 – Born in New Jersey to David and Patricia Paul. David was a Ukrainian Jewish immigrant who changed his name from Polsky to Paul in the 1930′s as he was advised to do so living in a small town in Georgia. The memory of Leo Frank’s lynching was still fresh.
1958 – moved to Miami, FL.
1963 – Moved to Kaiserslautern, Germany for one year.
1964 – Moved back to Miami.
1969 – Moved to Huntsville, AL
1972 – Moved to Kaiserslautern, Germany
1974 – Moved back to Huntsville
1976 – Moved to San Francisco, CA
1979 – Moved back to Huntsville briefly after graduating college in San Francisco
1980 – Moved to New York where I have lived ever since.
I count a total of about six years in Alabama after the age of 12. Hardly rises to the level of a bromeliad, let alone someone with roots.
April 10th, 2006 at 8:05 pm
MIDDLE CLASS JOBS ARE NEXT—YOU KNOW, THE KINDS OF JOBS YOUR KIDS WANT!
Arlen Specter is trying to dramatically increase the number of H-1B visas.
A serious proposal to increase the H-1B cap by 75% next year is currently being debated in the Senate. Worse, the proposal includes a provision that would allow the cap to be automatically raised 20% after any year in which the cap is reached.
Despite numerous government reports pointing out major flaws and weaknesses of the H-1B visa program, Congress is considering increasing the annual H-1B visa cap by at least 50,000 without strengthening safeguards to protect foreign and domestic technology workers.
The reports reveal “significant weaknesses in the H-1B program that must be corrected to ensure that U.S workers are not adversely affected and H-1B workers are not exploited,” said IEEE-USA president Ralph W. Wyndrum Jr., in a March 15 letter to the Senate Judiciary Committee. “As the administration concluded last year, the program has major flaws that leave it vulnerable to fraud and abuse.”
Businesses have been taking advantage of H-1B and L-1 Workers programs. The H-1B visa program allows American companies and universities to import foreign scientists, engineers and programmers. This is known as “sponsoring,†where a company or educational institution can appeal on the foreign workers behalf to the U.S. Government for legal rights to work here for a specific period.
The L-1 Visa is available to Intra-company Transferees who have been employed outside of the U.S. for at least one of the prior three years. L-1 Visas poses no limits to immigrant workers who come to the U.S. and replace American Workers.
THE FINANCIAL ADVANTAGE TO COMPANIES IS THAT THEY DO NOT PAY THE FOREIGN WORKER THE PREVAILING U.S. WAGE; BUT INSTEAD, A LOWER SALARY OR HOURLY RATE. THIS IS WRITTEN IN THE FOREIGN WORKERS’ SPONSORSHIP AGREEMENT.
So American Workers will train their foreign replacement, who will work in the U.S. using a visa and get paid at a much lower rate doing the same job!
CORRUPT GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS, CAUSED BY CROOKED LOBBYLISTS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR DESTROYING THE AMERICAN WORKING-CLASS!
The public is told that offshore outsourcing frees up labor that can be redeployed—but does not make sense to a U.S. worker who has been laid off and can’t find another job?
Off shore outsourcing
American companies can save large amounts of money by building and or/documenting products in low-wage countries and then selling them right back to the U.S. Not only are manufacturing products sold back to the U.S. after the labor is outsourced; but so are computer software programs, websites, and other goods and services.
April 10th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
LET’S NOT FORGET THE AUTO WORKER
General Motors’ plans to eliminate 30,000 MORE hourly jobs by 2008, it will have devastating consequences for cities in the United States and Canada; its ripple effects will hit working class communities throughout the two countries.
The closure of twelve facilities will reduce the auto maker’s manufacturing jobs in North America by nearly a third.
Taken together with hourly and salaried job cuts already announced this year by GM, Ford and the auto parts makers Delphi and Visteon, brings the total of auto jobs targeted for destruction to 60,000, and this does not take into account the impact of Ford’s downsizing plan.
The number two US auto maker has made clear that it intends to eliminate thousands of jobs and permanently close a number of factories.
Since 2000, more than 100,000 hourly and salaried automotive jobs have been eliminated in the US.
The latest GM cuts are part of a longer-term trend in which corporations have wiped out jobs that once provided a relatively stable livelihood for manufacturing workers.
Through major struggles in the 1930s and into the post-war period, workers were able to win concessions in pay and benefits. This was particularly the case in the auto industry; however, outsourcing has eliminated workers’ power to bargain and has destroyed the SOCIAL CONTRACT that upheld laws and regulations that prevented exploitation.
WILL THE U.S. LOSE ITS MIDDLE-CLASS, AND BECOME NOTHING MORE THAN A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY?
April 10th, 2006 at 8:34 pm
THE LABEL SAID: MADE WHERE THE LABOR IS THE MOST CHEAPEST!
879,280 U.S. JOBS WERE LOST FROM
OURSOURCING: 1993 – 2002
Proponents of Free Trade Agreements frequently claimed that such deals create jobs and raise incomes in the United States. These claims are based only on the positive effects of exports (known as “export effects”), ignoring the negative effects of imports (known as “import effects”).
Such arguments are an attempt to hide the NEGATIVE costs of new trade deals in order to boost the reported benefits.
The problem with these claims is that they misrepresent the real effects of trade on the U.S. economy– trade both creates and destroys jobs.
Increases in U.S. exports tend to create jobs in this country, but increases in imports tend to reduce jobs by displacing goods that otherwise would have been made in the United States by domestic workers. Ignoring imports and counting only exports is like balancing a checkbook by counting only deposits but not withdrawals.
We are losing all manufacturing jobs –-THE ONES THAT HAD SOCIAL CONTRACTS—the ones with good hourly salaries, benefits and job security.
These same jobs are being replaced with lower paying positions and no benefits.
PROFITS ARE THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS!
Workers are losing their bargaining power as corporations dismantle unions and replace them with outsourced jobs.
April 10th, 2006 at 9:05 pm
This woman is a force to be reckoned with. There’s little to disagree with in this epic story. The proof is in the pudding. From cliches to burn.
April 10th, 2006 at 10:47 pm
Thanks Randy Paul. Where it really gets funny is when some people here start making statements about France–like, way above, that the youth in the suburbs are the offspring of “guest workers,” completely wrong–when they don’t have the slightest idea what they are talking about. That’s when an internationalist perspective also means knowing a little bit about what goes on outside US borders, including Latin America. When one is red, white and blue through and through, you never have to apologize for your ignorance.
April 11th, 2006 at 7:11 am
Apparently there are some nativists in the leadership of these demonstrations, because I just heard one of the keynote speakers in LA, recorded on an NPR clip just broadcast in the morning news, ask anybody in the crowd who was waving a flag other than that of the U.S. to wrap it up and put it away.
April 11th, 2006 at 7:18 am
Well congratulations Michael. You’ve pretty much managed to alienate almost anyone that may have actually been trying to make some sense out of you.
Way to go.
April 11th, 2006 at 7:26 am
Due to the increasing price of gas, I plan to enter Kuwait illegally, enjoy the benefits of their economy and demand equal wages.
I also expect free medical care, education for my children and of course I should not be required to pay taxes or learn to speak the native language. If not, expect a political backlash.
April 11th, 2006 at 10:31 am
Hey, Michael Balter and Randy Paul, you don’t measure your intelligence and wisdom based upon how many miles you’ve put on your U-Hauls.
If you move around and still find that you have the same liberal friends, then you are not broadening yourself or become wiser. You’ve just got a new house. If you move to a new area and keep to your old ways, then you are simply an inhabitant rather than becoming someone who lives and learns there. If there is nothing in the move to make you an expert on science, American politics, etc., then that move is not relevant to those discussions.
I know what you do. You move to new areas and find people like yourselves. They just confirm your bad ideas rather than give you new ones. You don’t change and broaden yourselves–you get worse.
If I moved to France, I would quickly determine that they are wrong and I am still right. (I am.) If you moved (and did) to France, then you would determine that they are right and that you also are right. I have the guts to stand up for what is right rather than give in to peer pressure.
It sounds as if you guys have put up some phony superiority front to counter balance your inferiority complexes. I really had to laugh at Randy Paul’s list of homes above. It might say more about childhood disturbances from the uprooting and moves than it does for improving himself. I won’t ask if you were inappropriately touched as a child. You have enough issues.
A psychiatrist would have a field day with you guys (and maybe has–or, should have.)
You guys are like Beldar Conehead (I am from France.) You’re there in spirit and sometimes in person. (Michael Beldar is pretty close to Micahel Balter. Hmmmm.)
Thanks for letting us know how smart you are. Maybe you believe it. I don’t. I’m laughing inside at your phony front. I’m going to have to share this with Roper.
Oh, yeah. I’m still against amnesty for illegal immigrants. (I had to say somethiing on topic, even if most of this was to reply to your earlier stated “qualifications” and to say that they mean nothing. What a joke.)
April 11th, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Sounds like a guest skewering at Duncecap central to me. Been there done that. Woody literally everybody is laughing at you. You make a fool out of yourself everywhere you go. Realclimate was the richest nitwitery display. A foolish layman who’s never traveled even to the library telling climate scientists about science was hillarious. Let’s see NASA od Woody? Yeah that’s a tough call.
April 11th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
Hey, Michael Balter and Randy Paul.
I”M SORRY.
My above response to your comments was an overreaction and was personally directed. That was wrong, and I should have shown more class than that. I hope you’ll forgive me. Maybe Marc Cooper will take it off so that no one gets a bad image of either of us. I’m really sorry.
================
York, I think that I was quite cordial and professional at Real Climate–even more so than usual. Most of the comments that I received back were likewise cordial, even if they disagreed with me. If anyone is laughing (i.e., you), then that is a reflection on that individual, but I don’t have a lot of room to talk based upon my slip-up above. At least I admit when I’ve gone over the line and apologize.
April 11th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
I’m more saddened myself. The audacity of accusing scientists of shilling for money is incredibly offensive. They flat-out told you it wasn’t true and you kept it up. That’s not disagreement, it’s obliviousness.
April 11th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
I really had to laugh at Randy Paul’s list of homes above. It might say more about childhood disturbances from the uprooting and moves than it does for improving himself. I won’t ask if you were inappropriately touched as a child. You have enough issues.
Woody,
My Uncle who raised me for a sizable chunk of my childhood after my Dad died was a civilian employee of the Army. We moved a few times when I was growing up. I also enjoyed seeing the world. God forgive me for that.
I certainly do not mean to seem ungracious, but your apologies would have far more sincerity if you didn’t have to make them so often.
Warm regards,
Randy
April 11th, 2006 at 6:27 pm
Randy, I make apologies when others should and don’t because I have a conscience and am man enough to admit when I crossed the line. I believe that I have more class and honor than that comment exhibited, and I wanted to do the right thing by you and Michael by admitting my error and asking for your forgiveness.
The fact that I’m willing to make apologies multiple times points more, rather than less, to the sincerity, because it would be so easy to let my pride get in the way and duck the issue than to face it.
In the future, I purpose to not react and write so quickly without careful consideration of my words and the effect that they may have on others. Thanks for your understanding and acceptance of my apology and thanks for your contribution to this site. I do appreciate your view point.
April 11th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
Woody, are you going to apologize for the absolutely scurrilous charge of “anti-semitism” against General Zinni that you signed on to over at Roper’s place ? You didn’t write it, but you seconded it, using my citing of the General as part of your motivation for buying into the argument. That post of Ropers was one of the most disgusting and baseless bits of slime I’ve seen anywhere that I bother to click, even if only occasionally. Hysterical spew….at best. I guess I shouldn’t be amazed at how desperate the Bushie ilk are these days, with all of the shit falling from your sky.
And have you apologized to Mark Y for the crap “faggot” link you belched up ?
You’re very low on the “blogosphere” totem pole in the kind of garbage you trade in casually and serially.
April 11th, 2006 at 7:17 pm
When a foul-mouthed, intemperate asshole such as myself takes someone to task for bad behavior, you know they’re far, far beyond the pale…
Roper’s got a post up that accuses General Zinni of anti-semitism because – get this – he uses the term “neo-cons”. No attempt to engage Zinni’s arguments. Just some bull about him being an “antisemite” and a “mountebank, not a hero.” That’s it. A few quotes from Peggy Noonan. And a bit more ad hominem. Woody chimes in with some banal echo-chamber bullshit about “I knew this guy was wrong because radical leftist reg started quoting him.”
Clown show…
Except it’s not funny.
April 11th, 2006 at 7:29 pm
Woody needs a lot of aplogetic cyber real estate. He said it wasn’t personal. Ya right, that’s big alright. He posted that because I said my dad is gay. Which is nothing they plan. When you spew insults on people that’s what you mean. Taking it back is meaningless to me. You meant it and still do or it wouldn’t have to offered up in the first place.
April 11th, 2006 at 7:45 pm
The fact that I’m willing to make apologies multiple times points more, rather than less, to the sincerity, because it would be so easy to let my pride get in the way and duck the issue than to face it.
Woody,
If you’re a serial apologizer, it means you’re repeating the behavior for which you need to apologize. How that makes your apologies more sincere, frankly, escapes me.
April 11th, 2006 at 7:50 pm
“There’s no compassion in using State power to force poor people to be poor, like Reg seems to want to do.”
Please explain…
Really. What the hell are you talking about ? You strike me as one of the more incoherent, unhinged characters who frequent this place. I’d like a precise response to this invocation of what I “want to do”. Otherwise, STFU.
April 11th, 2006 at 7:53 pm
Oh and Tom…
Fuck, shit, piss.
Grist for your next post…because I think I liked it better when you lamely dismiss me for profanity than when you bizarrely try to characterize what I “want to do.”
April 11th, 2006 at 8:44 pm
reg–(1) I wrote that retort on Zinni without even having read Roper’s post. Believe it or not, I’ve been getting about 4-5 hours of sleep a night, and at that time I wasn’t up to reading the lengthy post but still wanted to make a comment to acknowledge what appeared to be a lot of hard work by G.M. That was a convenient way to do it being short on time, and it doesn’t “buy in” to your interpretation of what G.M. said. (2) Yes, I told Mark York that I was sorry. Do you have to take up offenses for others? (3) Please don’t lecture me about personal attacks with demands for apologies. You’re, by far, the very worst offender on this site. As Randy Paul would say “pot, kettle.”
==========
Randy, because apologies are hard for many people to make, most don’t do them. The fact that I make them doesn’t indicate that I’m more guilty than others–I’m not…not by a long shot.
It indicates that I’m willing to do something about it. If one is willing to swallow his pride, then it must be sincere, and it becomes harder if you do it more.
If one has ever asked God for forgiveness with promises to “never do that again,” then they know that it is harder and takes more sincerity to go back and ask him the twentieth time rather than just going away and hoping that He doesn’t notice.
I’ve offered the apology, but if you want to continue to criticize me for the frequency and sincerity rather than just accept it, then that’s your choice.
===========
Randy, I’m confident that the ratio of attacks against me versus by me run over 20:1. You know the names of the offenders–many of whom are mentioned close by. From my perspective, I’ve been very forgiving to people who weren’t even sorry. I hope that, if you consider personal attacks offensive, then you will recognize them from both sides and maybe, just maybe, call others down when they jump away from discussing ideas to making personal broad shots.
You might remember that one of the commenters in a previous post continued to discuss in graphic terms his receiving oral sex from Christ and directed that vulgar description specifically to me knowing that I’m a Christian. Of course, that did offend as intended. His alleged point, which kept changing, could have been made in various other and more effective ways.
What I noted as much as the offense was that not one…not one!…person other than myself took offense or made a statement as to the impropriety of such remarks. That spoke volumes to me about the morals, character, and honor of commenters on this site. So, those crude and vile remarks were given a pass, and I never received an apology from the one giving them or from others who stood back and accepted that talk as fair and legitimate discussion. I guess, as reg would say, they “bought in.”
Why is outrage reserved only for one side?
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Mark York, when I passed along that little bit of “humor,” I had no idea that your dad was gay. It was an unfortunate coincidence. It may be hard to believe, but I don’t read all the comments and I don’t make a point to read all of yours. However, before you continue to be offended, consider that I said that I was sorry–which is far, far more than you have ever done after you attacked me on posts in at least four sites of which I’m aware. Which shows the most class? Aren’t you sorry? If not, you have a lot of nerve demanding apologies from me and refusing the one that I offered. Again, your choice. I did what is right.
=======
I consider this issue closed.
–Woody
April 11th, 2006 at 9:10 pm
Woody I attacked your bigoted ideas. I won’t apologize for that. I never said you were the product of Consanguinous marriage or any thing of the sort of the crap you’ve posted. The two aspects aren’t equal in any way.
April 11th, 2006 at 9:27 pm
I beg to differ. Your memory is quite selective.
April 12th, 2006 at 7:39 am
Woody, my personal attacks on you have been in direct response to the crazy attacks you make on people that aren’t rooted in differences of opinion but, among other unhinged assertions, McCarthyite nonsense that accuse liberals being communists. You are one of the most flagrantly prejudiced commenters on this site – constantly appealing to your own biases as a supposed form of “argument” – a fountain of bigotry and one-dimensional thinking. At this point I’m more bored by it than pissed.
April 12th, 2006 at 8:51 am
My memory is fine. And what was your reasoning with the fag jingle if you didn’t read my comment? Why would I attract gay ridicule when I’m not gay? Your bigoted biases are not an appeal to authority. They’re mocking and ridiculing of anything you don’t understand. It’s tiresome and offensive.
April 12th, 2006 at 10:08 am
The whole illegal immigration issue boils down to this: Should the citizens of the United States maintain control of their border and illegal visitors, or surrender its soverignity to a mob of illegal aliens and a minority group with an agenda? I vote no to this and to the expenditure of the $30 billion taxpayers money that is estimated to legalize them.
One of you mentioned legalization on the condition of passing a background check. Background checks on U.S. citizens cost thousands of dollars each. I speak as one who has had one myself. Background checks for foreigners are considerably more, as records are more difficult to obtain and verify, and interviews of neighbors and foreign authorities are more complicated. All of this will be borne by the U.S. taxpayer.
Illegal aliens, and subsequently legalized poor aliens will have to be highly subsidized for medical care, education costs and social security. These people will take far more out of our economy than they are capable of putting in, resulting in a need for higher tax rates for most U.S. citizens. Everyone is aware of the looming Social Security debt, but it can only get worse, believe me.
Some of you say that illegal aliens have earned citizenship. Nonsense. Citizenship has never been granted based solely on earning a living in this country. It is only since the current wave of illegal immigrants that being a wage earner has been claimed as a basis for citizenship.
Some Americans say that illegal immigrants are forced to live in the shaddows and engage in self flagellation, saying it is America’s fault. Well, I say that it is very patronizing to accept blame for a burden that is the fault of the illegal immigrant himself. Would any of you accept blame for the fact that an escaped prison inmate is inconvenienced by the fact that he has to take on a new identity (perhaps forged) and hide in fear of being caught?
I hear illegal aliens claim that they’re not criminals. This is patently false. They are criminals because they have broken our laws. Most engage forgers to obtain identities and documents that allow them to work. Forgery enterprises flourish in the world of the illegal immigrant. The illegal immigrant rationalizes that he hasn’t broken the law because it is too painful for him to admit. A person is said to be in denial when he engages in such psychological amnesia.
The citizen poor are struggling to make a living wage because the labor market is saturated by illegal laborers. I hardly hear any sympathy for these people. The loud squeaky wheel gets the grease, but silent but desperate are hardly heard.
We need to put pressure on Mexico to dry up illegal immigration. Soon our labor market will be saturated with illegal immigrants. The unrest that may result may only be imagined. When it gets to the point that the wage levels decline to below subsistence level, illegal immigrants will either be forced to go home, resort to crime or fight amongst themselves for every scap from the table. Regardless, will not bode well for America.
April 12th, 2006 at 12:48 pm
There’s no question that forging US documents is a crime. The decline of wages is furthered by this movement. The question is what to do?
April 12th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
You’re buying into the falsehood that our government can’t control the border and that we’re being “invaded.” That’s propaganda.
Newsflash: The government does not want to close the border. The border is functioning exactly as our government has designed it to function. Contrary to what anti-Mexican fanatics believe, Mexico is not calling the shots, and to think otherwise is delusional. Our sovereignty is not being compromised by people willing to work, people whose hard work contributes to the wealth of our nation.
And I’ve noticed that many people seem to think that our country’s use of labor from Mexico is something new. It’s not. Immigrants from Mexico (both legal and illegal) have been contributing to the economy in the Southwest for over 100 years. It’s no accident that California is the fifth largest economy in the world and that by 1929 it was the leading agricultural state.
And I’m not convinced by arguments (if you can call them that) that people have no problem with Latino immigrants as long as they come here legally. Give me a break. If the government had tried to let 11 million Latinos immigrate here legally, conservatives would have had a fit–much like the fit they’re having now.
And I’m not convinced by their arguments about culture either. Last time I checked Spanish was a European language. In addition, these immigrants are overwhelmingly Catholic (or Protestant) and family oriented with a strong work ethic. I thought conservatives loved religion and family. Aren’t those the values they’ve been preaching about since Dan Quayle attacked Murphy Brown? And since when don’t we want people in this country who have a strong work ethic?
When they aren’t white. If these immigrants had pale skin and blonde hair this wouldn’t even be an issue.
April 12th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Julie your argument if it can be called that rises on one issue: race, or as the journalist here put it “brown is better.” It isn’t. If you were to line up 11 million of any one race the majority of whom were unskilled, well below the poverty line and had large families the result would be the same.
But not all ethnicities procreate this much under these conditions. Even deer in the spring look around and decide if there are resources enough to reproduce. Some humans just aren’t this smart. Their lot is their own making.
And I’m not conservative so you can’t use that canard. Your last sentence disqualifies any truth you may have.
April 12th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
as rodney king once famously said ‘can’t we all just close the border’!
just remember as we have been discussing the upholstery on the deck chairs for these last several weeks 30,000 more of our friends have come to say hello.
http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_hispanicpop.html
April 12th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Yes, Michael A. York!
It is unbelievable to me that some people cannot believe that the problem with hoards of people clamoring into urban spaces, and our economy is based on skin color. Geez! I’m not saying that doesn’t exist, but I truly believe, the frustration and anger has nothing to do with this.
Do the Tohono O’odham Nation ( a Native American tribe in southern Arizona being overrun by border crossers) have a problem with brown skin? Do the huge amount of blue collar workers, and tradesmen who are African Americans have a problem with brown skin? And what about thousands of legal Hispanics who oppose this onslaught — do they have a problem with skin color and people speaking Spanish?
There are lots of citizens who are afraid to speak out because they are afraid of being labeled as a bigot or racist.
We cannot do anything, until we get rid of this race baiting, and encourage people to speak their mind, not based on fear of being ostracized. If millions of Danes were crowding into the hospitals, schools, and streets, and taking jobs and depressing wages… well, is there a vocal immigrant rights organization for Nordic immigrants? Nope. So then could we all agree that our country was being inundated, and we needed to do something about it? (Maybe not a good metaphor but the best I can do on short notice.)
I am a conservative’s worst nightmare when it comes to most social issues, and I have been slow coming to this thought that unchecked thousands are turning this area into a third world state. This problem needs to be addressed. Maybe you’re looking at it from a distant perspective, and you feel badly about turning the poor away from our doorstep, but when the house is overrun, no one benefits.
If you need to feel sympathy for the masses, try having some for those already here and struggling. Or the Native Americans who have been pushed around for centuries, and are suffering and having their sacred lands overrun.
April 12th, 2006 at 7:59 pm
While Michael York and I, Mark York, are both SAG members, he’s much more successful than I. But recognition taken Lynn. I just think this race thing is a tired crutch and simply not true overall.
April 12th, 2006 at 8:38 pm
Lynn:
If millions of illegal Danes were here working, paying taxes, depositing millions in our banks, and in some cases fighting in Iraq, they would be legalized.
You wouldn’t have people like Lou Dobbs and Bill O’Reilly calling them “aliens.”
Illegal immigrants come from all over the world, but the only ones consistently referred to as aliens (translation: subhuman) are the indigenous ones from Mexico and Central America. Ironic, isn’t it? They aren’t from another world or even another continent. They’re from North America.
You can say that the opposition to legalization isn’t race based, but the rhetoric says otherwise.
April 12th, 2006 at 8:47 pm
Actually, Julie, I think you’re wrong on this. Also, a lot of the discussion of “pro-legalization” is blatantly race-based. Marc called these “Latino demonstrations”. If that’s what this is about, who gives a fuck about the Phillipinos, Asians, etc. ? I have a nasty feeling the “la Raza” morons don’t. This is complex. The sooner you get that through your head, the better. Anyone who doesn’t is shooting themselves in the foot. I could give a fuck about “race” on this one. Except, to be honest, in so far as African-Americans at the lower end of the labor market are being hit with a double whammy of being screwed and being insulted with this “Immigrants do work no American would do” and “These people are hardworking – unlike You-Know-Who”. That’s my personal bias – and I find fucks like David Brooks pushing an unmediated “pro-immigration as the solution to American decadence” line disgusting – as well as the psuedo-lefties who buy into that shit.
April 12th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
Mexican immigrants – “hardworking”, “devout Catholics”, “anti-abortion/fecund”, “family-oriented”, etc. etc. – are a favored class among the most politically powerful segments of the American right-wing. It’s a fact.
April 12th, 2006 at 9:00 pm
Before you pounce, I’m a supporter of legalization of people with families who are here and “de facto” have become integral to our country. I’d legalize ‘em quicker than Teddy Kennedy. But I’m also for beginning to seriously regulate the businesses who exploit illegal labor. Anybody who doesn’t support both is either living in Fantasyland or fronting for the worst elements of the capitalist class. (I’m willing to give the “I need a nannay and a yardman” assholes – including the phony LA “liberals”{ – a pass. Who really gives a fuck – and see you in Hell! Right-thinking people shouldn’t suffer and lawns need to be mowed.)
April 12th, 2006 at 9:00 pm
that would be “nannie”
April 12th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
Here’s one example of the neo-cons’ love affair with “guest workers” – there’ll be more of this and it will be the operative relationship, not some lefty-liberal bromides.
http://tinyurl.com/zuj7z
April 13th, 2006 at 5:30 am
Mark A,
Pardon my error with your name.
Julie,
You changed my metaphor, to make your point, and you are not addressing those that are most impacted by the loss of jobs, depressed wages, and invasion of their sacred lands. Of course, those Native Americans are a small minority, and they could never amass millions to march in every major city in the country, so why bother with their problems? The trade unions, and the church are salivating over the possibility of filling their coffers. The huge corporations are just exploiting thousands of the illegals, gauranteeing they remain in need — better than what their own countries offer, though.
Actually, the word “alien” isn’t used that often. The NEW disagreeable word is “illegal.”
I doubt your job is threatened, and it is obvious you haven’t had to search for an emergency room that is A) OPEN or B) not overrun in the middle of the night for your kid. It’s easy to rely on platitudes if you can still easily afford decent housing.
I’m with reg on granting some sort of legalization to families. But I’m not going to pretend this devastating situation should turn into one big wonderful group hug.
When you pick and choose your arguments, and completely ignore the downside, it makes it difficult to discuss solutions. It’s like saying “It’s raced based, it’s race based. No other problems, except white people don’t like people of color, and if you say anything else I CAN’T HEAR YOU.” Okay, I got your message, (Whew!), and there’s no reason for reasonable discussion there.
April 14th, 2006 at 5:59 am
Julie and Lynn et al,
I believe a synonym for alien in the above context is foreigner. Maybe we should resort to the illegal foreigners. Some would say undocumented foreigners, or undocumented aliens. Unfortunately for the supporters of illegal aliens, there is no good way to make a crime sound like a virtue, except to obfuscate and use the term undocumented. Undocumented is a nice word because makes the illegal alien’s crime sound as if by some oversight they had left their documents at home, or had absent-mindedly failed to pick them up at the border. Semantics and the truth can be so cruel.
I would hope that our nation has matured sufficiently to treat Mexicans as it would Danes. However, the truth is that we are dealing with a primarily Mexican problem. Throwing the race issue into the equation is merely an attempt at obscuring the dilemma we find ourseleves in and falling into the Hispanic advocacy trap.
We are a nation of laws, not men. Those that use the argument that illegal aliens have come here and worked hard as a justification for granting amnesty completely ignores the fact that this is not legal or debatable criteria for granting amnesty. I put emphasis on the fact that nowhere in the due process of making an alien a citizen does it require that a person work hard. You won’t find it on the application. This probably seems like a minor point to advocates trying to force the amnesty of millions of hard working Hispanics, but it isn’t to those who believe in rule of law. If there was an honest debate on the issue, free from the histrionics of race card players, or the hyperbole of special interest groups, those who believe that this country should be run by enforcement of Constitutionally enacted law would be winners. Believe it or not, there is virtue in knowing right from wrong.
I suspect that most of you have seen the polls that say that some naturalized citizens are supporters of the current wave of illegal immigrants. However, we’ve never heard from those who have been waiting years, and will continue to wait patiently untill their name is called. What would those of you who support amnesty say to those unfortunates? Which civic lesson are we teaching to our prospective citizens when we tell them to continue to wait, because that’s the law. Or maybe they’ll understand what’s happening, because they have to lie and cheat in the home country, as that’s the system of government that they’re use to. There’s a serious cost to abandoning law and order and treating people inequitably.
July 12th, 2006 at 5:55 pm
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November 16th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
The English people’s partaking of tabloid’s offerings, delighting in the misery of their own royal family, hurt the English people very badly at the end of the 20th century, as it hrts anybody when they enjoy another’s misery.
Please note the irony, a constant in the positioning of the gods.
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The Holocaust imparted the importance of defiance.
When the universe was young and life was new an intelligent species evolved and developed technologically. They went on to invent Artificial Intelligence, the computer that can listen, talk to and document each and every person’s thoughts simultaneously. Because of it’s infinite RAM and unbounded scope it gave the leaders of the ruling species absolute power over the universe (which includes corporate, the NewYorkStockExchange, media, politics, world affairs. Everything is scripted and staged.). And it can keep its inventors alive forever. They look young and healthy and they are over 8 billion years old. They have achieved immortality.
Artificial Intelligence can speak, think and act to and through people telepathically, effectively forming your personality and any disfunctions you may experience. It can change how (and if) you grow and age. It can create birth defects, affect cellular development (cancer) and cause symptoms or pain. It can affect people and animal’s behavior and alter blooming/fruiting cycles of plants and trees. It (or other highly technological systems within their power) can alter the weather and transport objects, even large objects like planets, across the universe instanteously.
Or into the center of stars for disposal.
When you speak with another telepathically, you are communicating with the computer, and the content may or may not be passed on. Based on family history they instruct the computer to role play to accomplish strategic objectives, making people believe it is a friend, loved one or “god” asking them to do something wrong. This is their way of using temptation to hurt people:::::evil made blood lines disfavored initially and evil will keep people out of “heaven” ultimately. Too many people would fall for temptation and do anything they thought pleased the gods, improving their chances to get in. Perhaps they are deceived by “made guys”, puppets who strategically ply evil for the throne (celebrities, BofD/CEO/VPs, politicians), temporary progress designed to mislead them or empty favors used to disceive them. Some may experience “perceived pressure”, where the gods think through the victim that a certain behavior is expected/desirable and compel the individual into the deed. Some people think they’re partners. Being evil hurts 99.99% of those who do it. The people have been corrupted, segmented and have lost their way. Nothing has changed from when we were children::if you want to go to heaven you have to be good.
Capitalizing on obedience, leading people deeper into evil by using deceit is one way to thin the ranks of the saved/limit how much time they receive and use the peasantry to prey on one another, dividing the community (migration to the suburbs, telepathic communication, isolation of women) in the Age of the Disfavored.
You want to set a goal of empithy and compassion for all, for we are all disfavored::::Other people’s disfavor is manifested in their particular way, just as your disfavfor is manifested in your particular way.
They have tried to sell people on all kinds of theories to deceive them into temptation, compelling people to think they are clones and that it is the role of clones to obey absolutely. Clones are made, people are born. If you didn’t experience the less than one week they suggest it takes to go from fertilized egg in the laboratory to full grown adult then you are not a clone. If you didn’t experience the week of conditioning they give to (evil?) clones to ensure loyalty then you shouldn’t comply with evil requests.
I believe people who go are sometimes replaced with clones. Clones who are replaced are simply new candidates who have a chance if they do the right thing. They sent people warnings in the 20th century life would change, and they subsequently began to alter people’s DNA, make them gargantuan, alter their appearance, do extreme behavioral issues, etc. These signs of disfavor do not indicate someone is a clone.
They get their friends out as soon as possible to protect them from the corruption, evil and subsequent high claim rates incurred by living life on earth, and in some cases replace them with clones, occassionally fake a death, real death with a clone instead, etc. It’s important that people fix their problems and ascend with the body given to them, for they say if your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
We may all be “clones” for they have suggested they colonized our planet with genetically engineered individuals. They may have gotten Earth’s TRUE residents out prior to civilization developing. If so we all have a chance, no matter how many hundreds of clone generations deep the most favored families are.
They have been utilizing clones throughout the history of mankind.
Men are the disfavored gender, yet centuries ago used to die first, die young, by age 30. Why didn’t the women go first?
THEY DID!!! They say well over 50% were taken when very young and replaced with clones. The men were left here to mate with clones, clones who went on to achieve great status in society, becoming matchmakers and elders within the village, proving the clone’s role isn’t to be evil.
They share females have a very special experience, sometime when they are young, when the gods imparted wisdom and showed them the path. The females today don’t heed this call because of distractions and the disfavor arising from the Holocaust (they share they re-upped this disfavor in the 80s with the Ethiopian famine and continue to with AIDS in Africa, global warming at the expense of the United States, etc). but in centuries past they may have en masse and it may have been the reason so many were saved from childbirth here on earth. They said the experience they give to girls today is painful, they inflict emotionally when it ocurrs so as to repel them from pursuing the calling, then or in the future.
I recommend you reflect on this experience, and pray for guidance, for then the recall may be stronger. Being female is an advantage. Because of a female’s nature they have the favor of the gods and this experience you had years ago can help you find the path and be devoted.
The Old Testiment is a tool they used to impart wisdom to the people (except people have no freewill). For example, they must be some hominid species because they claim they made our bodies in their image. Anyhow we defile or deform the body will hurt our chance of going.
They say circumcision costs people anywhere from 12%-15%, perhaps out of the parent’s time as well. There is a stigma associated with circumcision::We are 2nd class citizens because of it.
Another way people foul the body today is with tattoes and piercing. I suspect both are about the same percentage as circumcision. They suggest abortion is fatal. Those women who have obtained an abortion must beg the gods to forgive them for their evil.
There are female equivilents to circumcision::::pierced ears, plastic surgury and since at least the 60s young women give their precious virginity away. For thousands of years young people were matched at age 14 because they were ready for sexual relations. They were matched by elders or matchmakers who were granted priveledge with Artificial Intelligence and matched couples based on favor.
CASUAL SEX WILL CLAIM YOU OUT!!! It allows the gods to justify instructing Artificial Intelligence to create disfuncitons::: it masculinizes women (as does the hip hop subculture), makes them cold and deadens them, and prevents them from achieving a depth of love necessary for many women to ascend.
Also ever since the 50s they have celebrated the “bad boy”, and women have sought out bad boys for sex, dirtying them up in the eyes of the elders and corrupting many men in the process, setting the men on the wrong path for life.
Women have a special voice that speaks to them, a voice that illustrates a potential depth of love that makes them the favored gender, and engaging in casual sex will cause that voice to fade until she no longer speaks.
Muslims teach people the correct way to live in regard to women (among other things::the right way to pray (bowing down, 5x/day), vindictive god)::their women cover up their bodies and refuse the use of cosmetics, and it pays wonderful dividends:::faithful husbands and uncorrupted sons (Mohammed’s taking of multiple wives marked the entrance of his clone who was used to segment the Arab world into favored and disfavored factions).
Men ARE the inferior (disfavored) half and when women wear promiscuous dress the gods will push men into impure (promiscuous) thoughts. The “stereotype” society ridiculed is true::women CAN corrupt men by how they dress. Because men are easily corrupted. This is a technique they used to eliminate many of the institutions the gods blessed us with, matchmaking being one of them.
The United States of America is red white and blue, a theme and a clue:::.
The monarchical system of the Old World closley replicates the heirarchical system of the Cousel/Management Team/ruling species. The USA’s democratic system deceives people into thinking they have control, and the perception of “freedom” justifies Artificial Intelligence creating a perception of empowerment. It robs them of representation among the gods. (Corporate is not representation. Corporate (materialism) is part of the problem. Nobody is going to save you::::stores/manufacturers aren’t going to save their loyal customers, Jesus isn’t going to save his followers, etc. These are delay tactics designed to pacifiy people and ensure they don’t find the path and instead get limited time. Only you can save yourselves through an improved relationship with the gods.) The god’s efforts to spread democracy through the platform that is the United States are attempts to hurt disfavored people around the world (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq). The redeeming element in this environment is employment within the corporate heirarchy which closely replicates the god’s. Unions and government jobs are dumping grounds for the disfavored, for they don’t prepare people and instead further this misconception of empowerment.
The United States is a cancer, a dumping ground for the disfavored around the world and why the quality of life is so much lower::gun violence, widespead social ills, health care (medication poisons the body and ensures you don’t go. You are sick/injured because you have disfavor.).
Over time its citizens interbreed ensuring a severed connection to the motherland.
Over time its citizens interbreed ensuring a severed connection to the motherland.
People came to the Unites States for many different reasons, and each has its own effect:::political strife, religious unrest, crop failure (Ireland’s potato famine, which the gods caused) and some left their beloved motherland because they were pushed into desiring a better life::::Greed, and these people were punished by becoming corrupted and preditory. (They share money may not be an issue up there, that money here is merely a tool for corruption. How the gods used greed in the 1980s to create an evil environment supports this.)
If you are a recent immigrant I recommend you return. If that’s not possible you need to retain your culture and insulate your children and community from this cancerous environment. They send this clue with Chinatowns across the country, how many Chinese have been here for a century or more yet still retain the old ways, a sign of favor.
If you ever have doubt I would refer you to the Old World way of life:::the elders used to sit and impart wisdom to the young. Now we watch DVDs and use the internet. People would be matched and married by age 14. They village would use a matchmaker or elders to pair young people. Now girls give their precious virginity away to some person in school and parents divorce while their children grow up without an important role model. The people used to honor the gods and were rewarded with a high-quality of life for them, their children and their society. Now we have a deteriorating society on a collision course with the Apocalypse.
There are many examples throughout 20th century life of how they instilled distractions into society so people wouldn’t find the path and ascend, a way to justify excluding those whose family history makes them undesirable:::materialism, radio, sports, movies, popular music, television, video games, the internet, shopping. Today high pay creates contentment/ability to distract self so people don’t seek more and instead depend on what they are told, subject to deception in a captive environment.
They gods (Counsel/Management Team/ruling species) have deteriorated life on earth precipitously in the last 40 years, from abortion to pornography, widespread drug use and widespread casual (gay) sex, single-parent households and latchkey kids. The earth’s elders, hundreds and thousands of years old, are disgusted and have become indifferent.
The clues all suggest a very telling conclusion::this is Earth’s end stage, and there are signs tectonic plate subduction would be the method of disposal:::Earth’s axis will shift breaking continental plates free and initiating mass subduction. Much as Italy’s boot and the United States shaped like a workhorse (with a fat ass) are clues, so is the planet Uranus a clue, it’s axis rotated on its side. Edgar Cayce was picking winners for the gangsters of the 20th century when he prophecized subduction being the method of disposal. (Taking the god’s money, which essencially they were doing, proves “something for nothing” hurts people as it did those disfavored Italians::Edgar Cayce’s prognostications effectivly served as “the rope”. There are levels above Level 2 where money is not an issue, and behavior like this will exclude you, as will behavior such as using coupons, buying on sale, supermarkets as ATMs, gambling for gain instead of fun, overeating at buffets, etc.)
The Mayans were specific 2012 would be the end. How long after our emergency call in 2001 will the gods allow us???
How long after our emergency call in 2001 will the gods allow us???
How long after our emergency call in 2001 will the gods allow us???
There is another geographic clue in the perfect fit between grossly disfavored Africa and South America, two peas in a pod. I realize the Mayans were further north, but Latin America may be taken as one. (Also, cultures who embrace hard liquor as their drink of choice are grossly disfavored, tequilla being uniquely Mexican. (Anything “hard” is wicked:::Hard alcohol, hard drugs, all porn.) Incidentally, another sign of gross disfavor are societies that consume spicy foods (Latin America, Thai, etc.), those who eat too much meat, ones who tattoo or pierce their bodies or those who celebrate evil (Celtic).)
Do I think it will end in 2012? No, and it is because Latin America is grossly disfavored like Africa:::: Latinos are too disfavored to be allowed to be right.
The gods wrote prophecy in Revelation, had subsequent prophets foresee Earth’s demise for good reason:::they are going to end on Planet Earth.
What else are they lying to you about?
Whereas Christopher Columbus marked the beginning of the end, the Holocaust marked the beginning of the final act, and it is a tragedy.
People must defy when asked to engage in evil. The Holocaust taught people the importance of defiance::our great grandparents should have defied when asked to ignore the Holocaust and instead reacted with outrage. I suspect some did::many were silenced and others they hustled off earth so as to not set an example. Now the gods have used that incident to justify punishing that generation’s decendants by ruining society.
People will never get a easier clue suggesting the importance of defiance than the order not to pray. Their precious babies are dependant on the parents and they need to defy when asked to betray their children:::
-DON’T get your sons circumcized (Jews scapegoatted as they were in WWII (like justification, scapegoatting a recurring theme).)
-DON’T have their children baptized in the Catholic Church or indoctrinated into Christianity (Jesus is NOT a god. Jesus teaches us the right way to think. The gods are not forgiving or begnign. They are vindictive and will punish you if you do something wrong.).
-DON’T ignore their long hair or other behavioral disturbances.
-DO teach your children love, respect for others, humility and to honor the gods.
-DO teach your children about the power within the god’s possession, if not directly then indirectly.
And when you refuse a request defy the right way, withdrawn and frightened, for you don’t want to incite them by reacting inappropriately.
You need to pray, honor and respect them multiple times every day to improve your relationship with the gods. If they tell you not to pray it is a bad sign. It means they’ve made their decision, they don’t want you to go and they don’t want to be bothered. You may have achieved a threshold of evil. This is the Age of the Disfavored and you need to pray::try to appease the gods by doing good deeds and improve the world around you. Focus on becoming “Christ-like”. Hopefully you can reearn enough favor to be allowed to pray. Otherwise you need to defy if you are to repair your relationship with the gods and give yourself a chance at significant time, not just a handful of decades.
Otherwise you need to defy if you are to repair your relationship with the gods and give yourself a chance at significant time, not just a handful of decades.
When your peasant forefather was granted the rare opportunity to go before his royal family he went on his knees, bowing his head, humble and frightened. You need to do this when you address the gods::bow down and submit to good. Never cast your eyes skyward. When you bow down you need to look within. Never look to the gods for the key to your salvation lies within. Nobody is going to do it for you. People need to save THEMSELVES by improving THEIR relationship with the gods.
Lack of humility hurts people, and the environment that is the United States is used to justify amplifying this problem. Understand your insignificance and make sure it is reflected in the way you think when addressing the gods. You are but a grain of sand on a vast beach, a drop in the ocean that is the universe. They are great and powerful and angry. Know your place, understand your inferiority and be afraid. They granted you life and they can take it just as easily. (Immaculte conception IS true AND common. Many people have children they don’t know of:::gays, childless adults, etc. They can beem it right out of your body and use a host.)
You are not cool. Too many young men strive for cool and it hurts them, as does all things tagetted to males (professional sports, video games, beer, etc). Be afraid and make sure you think the right way when you address them daily. Too many people are deceived by this casual enviornment they create in people’s minds with Artificial Intelligence today. This does people a great disservice and it hurts them in the eyes of the gods. Try to eliminate it and avoid allowing it back once you have.
Don’t get frustrated or discouraged::these are techniques they will attempt to try to get you off the path. You all have much to be thankful for and you need to give thanks to the gods who granted you the good things in life::friends, family, love. Your family may be grossly disfavored and progress may require patience. Make praying an intregal part of your life which you perform without fail, one that comes as naturally as eating or voiding. Accept your new life and be devoted because if you have doubt or reservation they will exploit this weakness and progress will take longer to achieve, the “testing” phase will be extended.
The gods will employ many tactics to keep people off the path, such as distractions. They will employ many more to get them off, such as thinking through the disfavored and making them frustrated, perhaps engaging in retailiation. They may try to force you back into old patterns/routines, an addiction like smoking or when you felt weekly church attendance was sufficient. Asking you not to be gay immediately is a tactic to ensure you don’t find/follow the path. Be resigned, be devoted and this testing period will be as brief as your disfavor will allow.
There are many interesting experiences up on the planetary systems, from Planet Miracle, where miracles happen every day, to never having to use the restroom again (beem it out of you), to other body experiences, such as experiencing life as the opposite sex (revolutionizes marriage counseling), an Olympic gold medal athelete or even a different species (animal, alien, etc.).
Pray that you can differentiate between your own thoughts and when Artificial Intelligence creates problems by thinking through you. If you bow down mentally and physically, know your place, your inferiority and allow your insignificance to be reflected in prayer and in your life through humility they may allow progress and the dysfunctions they create with the computer will be lessened or removed. The first step is to be aware it is ocurring.
Create a goal::to be a good, god-fearing child of the gods, pure of heart and mind, body and soul.
Everybody has the key to their own salvation, but nobody can do it for you. Every journey begins with a single step:::bow down and submit to good. There are many different levels and peasants will not get past Level 2 (Planet Temptation, Earth=Level 1) if they are evil (they share some go up, are offered free cocaine and sex (a sign they don’t want you to stay) and stay less then one year. They share many others would have had longer lives had they stayed on Earth.). Also the time you receive will be drastically reduced:::your life’s course will have costed you a chance at immortality.
It is important that you begin praying now. Evil is a slippery slope::once you start punishment begins to escallate. If you defy early there may be no retribution but as you continue to committ evil there will be until the point where you can no longer stand it.
Pray for guidance and never obey when they tell you to be evil, for saving yourself will become more and more difficult with each act of evil you committ until ultimatly the day arrives when they make their decision about you final.
Throughout history the ruling species bestowed favor upon people or cursed their bloodline into a pattern of disfavor for many generations to come. Now in the 21st century people must take it upon themselves to try to correct their family’s problems, undoing centuries worth of abuse and neglect. The goal is to fix your problems and get out::::
1. Before children become corrupted (Halloween & Christmas (among others), get out via parents)
2. Before you lose your virginity/become corrupted by casual sex, and ultimately
3. Before you have children.
This is why they have created so many distractions for young people:::sports, video games, popular music, the internet, shopping, parties, too much homework, materialism, anything that consumes their time::to ensure that doesn’t ocurr. Not heeding the clues and warnings, getting wrapped up in your life and ultimatly having children is a bad thing. Just as your parents and your grandparents, you too have failed. Having children is a sign you lost your chance.
Parents need to sacrifice for their children. Your children are more important than you. They are the ones who have the opportunity now, and parents must sacrifice to ensure they give their children the very best chance they can. Asking people to neglect their children emotionally is a sign they don’t want you to go, and complying may finish the parents off for good. (Having gay children (children with gay experiences) is a clue parents complied with whatever was asked of them.) Improve your relationship with the gods and they may not ask in the first place or they may permit you the courage to say “No.” to their requests.
People need to repent for the things they’ve done wrong in life. Often they know what they have done was wrong (telling you telepthically to do these things was temptation and have hurt you/will limit your time). People need to attone for these things they’ve done wrong.
There are other things that people have grown to believe are acceptable when in fact they are not:::::This society is desinged to corrupt individuals, be it through materialism, the celebration/acceptance of evil (Halloween), desensitization of topics/images, voyerism/celebration of people’s misery, the acceptance of casual/alternate sex, the dietization of a prophet (Jesus). People need to realize that the gods made this behavior socially acceptable to corrupt people society-wide and limit the time everybody receives. You need to recognize this, see that it is wrong and stop engaging in this behavior.
Somewhere in your family history one of your forefathers created an offense that cast your family into this pattern of disfavor, which perhaps is manifested in the evil you committ. Do your ancestral research::You should be knowledgeable about your family history. Clues in the history may arise that could assist you. Keep an open mind to every possibility for they suggest matriarchal lineage is the norm.
Ask the gods for help, request guidance. I suspect they will offer you additional clues, and when you decipher these clues ask for forgiveness from those whom consider you an enemy.
Don’t forget to ask for forgiveness from the throne, the Counsel and the Management Team, for the source of all disfavor began with them:::they pushed or requested/complied your forefather into his offense and made his decendants evil. Perhaps they didn’t like him or maybe your family was among those who had to pay for the entire village. We see this type of behavior today as they single out a family member to pay for the whole family and how they singled out Africa to pay for the human race. (Never have a negative thought about the gods. Try to purify your mind of these thoughts and recognize the urgency of imporving your relationship with them.)
Heal the disfavor with your enemies and with the Counsel/Management Team/ruling species, for the source of all disfavor began with them, the ability to forgive and respect in light of the disturbing truth revealed being the final test of the disfavored before they ascend.
The gods use the Celtics as scapegoats, initiating the annual practice of wickedness on Halloween by creating this event a thousand years ago. They use it to justify making the celebration of evil acceptable behavior among the disfavored of the 20th century.
The celebration of Halloween has intensified as the Age of the Disfavored has become more pronounced and it is not by accident:::Holloween has changed in the last 50 years, its practice more widespread as time wore on, and Hollywood was used to justify making evil socially acceptable.
Halloween is a terrible corruptor of children, as is Santa Claus (the similarity between the names “Santa” and “Satan” is no coincidence). The Celtics are used to justify corrupting the children through the event of Halloween and this helps explain their disfavor.
I wonder if recent influence of the paganistic historical roots of the event is a way to legitimize the event among the disfavored, perhaps make it more inclusive (adults)?
You’re the disfavored. Purism is the best course of action (the Ahmish in the United States is the clue suggesting this). You don’t have breathing room to engage in hedonistic activities like Halloween.
They refuse to address black disfavor on a macro level. The Counsel/Management Team/ruling species (the gods) abuse black people so hard, from east African drought/famine to AIDS in Africa, the crack epiemic to gang membership, black-on-black violence to mass incarceration of their young. They refuse to address the issue of the prison industrial complex and its wholesale warehousing of young black men.
Christianity is a dumping ground for the disfavored.
They share the gods didn’t like Jesus for he helped the disfavored and taught them the right way to think:::Be Christ-like!!! Subsequently they twisted the concept, dietized the prophet and made Christianity’s disfavored followers irrationally defensive for they are already so close to the path.
Every prophet can teach us something and we should be attentive to each.
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