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Illegal immigration does cost the country, because how could an unregulated influx of undocumented people not have any adverse effects on a country? Of course it does.

That’s the whole point with immigration reform; to address the problems encompassed by the issue of illegal immigration, so that they can be solved as much as possible. That includes regulating, or re-channeling the influx of illegals.

As for forcing people to go home (if “home” really is where many of them are going) through either atrition or deportation.
I can see despots talking so casually about uprooting people from their homes and forcing families apart. The fact is that decent people wouldn’t find that conceivable. Only a psycho would be ok with creating tragedies. America won’t be better off by acting psycho. It is pshyco to pretend that the best that can be done about illegal immigrants is to make their lives miserable enough until they feel forced to leave. That’s just so cold, almost like a Hollywood movie. I wouldn’t do it to an animal. I know people who do it to cockroaches, but that’s about it. Only despots do it to humans, and now the House Republicans are contenders.

And as if they gave a damn about American workers. Sure, that’s why they’ve blocked minimum wage hikes and encouraged wars where kids would be send off to die and lose limbs. As if they really fought against illegal immigrants out of “compassion” for American workers. It’s a scam. Most Americans don’t even have health-insurance, but are left to lose their healths instead. You tell me that the House Republicans of all have tried to change that for the better. After all they can’t stop talking about the “poor American citizen” suffering from the “big, bad, mean illegal”, but if they really cared about American workers they’d be championing a host of issues that would profoundly increase the quality of life for those workers. Not symbolic stuff like “Marriage-English-Flag”, but real issues like wages and health-insurance.

I, on the other hand, try and see both side’s points, and compare them. What’s evident is how incredibly lacking the self-proclaimed legal lecturers focus on the law is, when the reality of most migrants and the forces that drive illegal immigration, are way greater than their incessant whines about law-breaking.

That’s the reason for why I asked Woody if he’d like to see the Hurricane Katrina “looters” be arrested when they stole food to survive. I didn’t see an answer. That illustrates how shallow that side’s logic is. You often here them use analogies to other crimes and how other crimes aren’t excusable no matter what the intentions from the perpetrator were. Well, immigration is not a crime. It is MADE into a crime for Pratctical purposes, Not because it’s morally indefensible, but because it’d be economically, as well as security-wise, impractical to let everyyone in. Only cowards choose to tack it as a true matter or crime, because it’s convenient.

It’s moronic to apply the law without a sense of compassion. Without a thorogugh assessement of justice it’s moronic to apply the law in just its raw form.
Laws need to be based on the dynamics of reality, which you keep ignoring. You can’t just “want” things to be legal in a certain way or you’ll end up with aberrations. That’s what judges, defense lawyers and prosecutors are for. If the justice system lacked one of those elements, it’d be a joke, and society would be a primitive wreck. It’d be the dark age.
The equivalent of that joke would be to proceed with immigration reform with Tom Tancredo as the prosecutor, Sensennbrenner as the judge, while the Senate bill’s authors were being completely pushed aside, as they’re the ones that represent the defense lawyer in this picture. Yet you dare come and talk about fairness to the American people. You keep ignoring 70% of reality and talk about being fair?

As for “rewarding illegal behavior”. It’s just freaking incredible.
The looters during the hurricane were criminals period. The speeder on the freeway is a criminal period. The homeless sleeping on the sidewalk is a criminal period. What asinine way of thinking, shallow as it can get. Phillosophically and morally this is asinine. I don’t just spew that, but if you’re serious about fairness you wouldn’t turn a blind eye toward big chunks of reality.

As for the illegals creating a burden if they were legalized. First off, there are burdens in more than one direction. For example, if burden on others was a true concern to you, you’d be bothered to see any human burdened, not just those of any particular nationality. Secondly, there is already a burden, but nobody has cared, but instead let families and people establish themselves here. There’s a moral, humane aspect of this which you can’t ignore, regardless of how many economical woes you’ve got. You can’t be so savage and blatant that you uproot families after turning a blind eye toward them for decades. That’s incredibly inhumane to do.

And all workers need to be cared for, including citizens. Obviously.
But blame that on the economy which demand a cetain type of labor. Don’t blame the families who’ve established their lives here now. You don’t let people risk their lives, and tend to an economy, and then suddenly kick them out. There’s a moral aspect that can’t be ignored.

Also, they are already here. America is the riches country on earth. Can afford to wage two simultaneous wars abroad. Telling me people, who are obviously willing to work hard, would be its actual demise. That’s quite cynical.
And you can care for American workers without uprooting other’s families. Part of the reason for, comprehensive, reform is to address real economical issues. The worker program is not for being “kind” to foreigners, but based on a real need.
Why the hell would anyone want to hurt American workers? It’s beyond me, and frankly just shows that people haven’t woken up to reality yet. The reality is that parts of the American economy needs the illegal laborers.

And, I’m not saying in a blanket statement that all jobs occupied by illegals needed them. For sure, some Americans have lost their jobs to illegals, and that needs to be addressed. But it can be adressed without being crude and ruthless via policy. Simply adjust the system to match the reality, economically and humanly, rather than pretending that it doesn’t exist. By being realistic, and stop whining.

Some info on NAFTA

NAFTA, offers evidence of how unbalanced trade deals fail workers in both rich and poor countries. NAFTA has cost US workers close to 900,000 jobs and job opportunities. NAFTA was supposed to open markets for American goods and services, creating high-paying jobs at home and prosperity abroad. But the opposite has occurred. In 11 years under NAFTA, the US trade deficit with Canada and Mexico ballooned to 12 times its pre-NAFTA size, reaching $111 billion in 2004.

Nor has NAFTA delivered the promised reductions in poverty in Mexico. Mexico’s workers still struggle for basic human rights, decent wages, and safe workplaces. NAFTA’s failure to protect workers’ rights has allowed employers to continue thwarting independent union organizing in Mexico’s export industries.

While exports and investment boomed, real wages fell and poverty rose in Mexico in the past 11 years, according to the Carnegie Endowment. More than a million Mexican farmers lost their land to low-priced agriculture imports and were forced to search for work in factories or as migrant laborers in the United States. Now investors in Mexico’s export assembly plants are moving to China, where labor costs are even lower.

Their major contribution to the U.S. is to the bottom lines of their unscrupulous employers. I don’t care if you Californians will have to do your on yard work or house work or take care of your own kids. I don’t care if the Motel 6 or Holiday Inn have to pay higher wages to have a U.S. citizen clean its rooms than for an illegal worker. I don’t care if McDonalds will have to raise wages to get more burger slingers. Go ahead, raise the price of lettuce or tomatoes to pay for U.S. labor. If Americans want lettuce, then they’ll have to pay higher prices for it or farmers will have to automate their harvesting. Cotton seeds were once picked by the hand labor of slaves, until the invention of the cotton gin. Most low skill factory labor and harvesting such as done by the Mexicans is convertable to mechization and only done by hand because expoitable cheap labor is availabe. I don’t care anymore for illegal Mexican labor than you do for the fate of citizen labor.

Again, the “damage” of “adopting 10-20 million”. They’re already here for god’s sake. What could possibly get worse?

I’ll wait until the House hearings are over and we’ll see if Americans still want to adopt 20 million poor. You’re a lot of hot air and calling those who differ with you morons only exposes your character.

Amnesty would cause destruction? What do you mean? Americans would suddenly start falling from bridges? Essentially what you and your pals are saying is that it’s a moral crime to treat illegals whov’e worked hard well. That’s what it boils down to.
I’d say with confidence that sending innocent 19-25 year olds into a dubious war is what truly hurts Americans. How come the same House Republicans don’t mention that as a sore for the American families but readily attack hapless migrants who’ve risked their lives in the desert to come here and work? Talk about not caring about people getting hurt, I mean those guys are the masters of it.

That latinos don’t assimilate is Bullshit with a big “B”. You morons keep reiterating the same prejudices that the Buchanans spew, when in fact they neither make sense nor are they supported by statistical evidence. So why keep spewing it? Because you hate the illegals, huh?

Where do you get your stupid ideas from? I don’t refute things based on a dislike for hearing a truth, but it simply is not true. Latinos including Mexicans, as supported by statistics, DO learn English, even FASTER than many other immigrants throughout history. It’s just intresting what can be said contrary to that. You state that they don’t “want” to assimilate. Are you psychics? Well, no wonder why immigration politics is going to hell.
Note that many Latinos have come recently. They’re our neighbours after all. It takes time to learn a new language (I mean, have you ever tried it?). And most free English classes throughout cities are filled with illegal applicants. You don’t learn much by listening exslusively to Buchanan-Tancredo-Am.Patrol. Period.

Moreover, by stating that, you imply that Mexicans and Latinos have some inherent inferiority etnically. You seem to believe that the motivation to learn is ethnically prompted, as opposed to humanly prompted as in it’s in the best interest for people to adjust and to learn, because they’re humans, not because they’re Brittons or Mexicans.
It’s cruel to say that about Latinos. It implies that they’re less than innocent, if not less capable.

I do NOT pretend that all illegals are angels. What I do care about is the truth. A truth is that when people risk their lives to find a job, that means something. To ignore it on the other hand would be legal, but morally despicable. The effect on people that an unfriendly immigration reform can have will be profound and can actually hurt people. They will be hurt for real, not according to some paranoia. Again, many have risked their lives to get here. Ask yourself what YOU would risk your life for, and then try and walk the walk for once, if you don’t get what it means.

As for an Amnesy hurting Americans. First off, steps can be taken to minimize or even possibly eliminate whatever hurting that could bring on citizens. But more importantly, by evidence (like you morons read Marc Cooper’s post, and still dont’ get anything), more illegals will get hurt by being forced out. More will be pushed into uncertainties, more will be split apart from their families, and more will die, period. You mean you’d rather see illegals die than to let them stay for work and be with their kids?
I know that some literally do.

Now the other thing is is that leaving illegals in a status quo, will hurt all people, including illegals and Americans, as it brings more instability, fraud, exploitation, tensions, and whatnot. Immmigration laws need to reflect Reality, not prejudice and beliefs. The reality is that deporting all illegals, or forcing them to leave would apart from being morally despicable, and low as can get, a slap in the face to that reality. The reality is that many companies need the illegal workers, because citizens won’t do the jobs, and that sometimes includes jobs with higher salaries. There’s proof of that.
The other point is that many illegals are willing to fill those spots, but have no means of doing so legally even if they want to. To just force a cap onto reality itself is irrational. Even if you despise people who lack a certain legal document , it would be irrational for you to ignore realitiy. There’s a practical side to the issue that pertains to all regardless of their personal or political stance. But you seem ignore that as well. For instance, even if you don’t give a damn about uprooting people, splitting up families, or deporting soldier’s parents, the economic reality still exists. By yelling “eeek, they’re illegal, kick them out!”, isn’t going to address that.

Again, the “damage” of “adopting 10-20 million”. They’re already here for god’s sake. What could possibly get worse? You mean it’s better to do the above and split up families and send soldier’s parents away??
And most of these people are not MS-13 members or felons. Most of them are just good folks that work hard, and because of that wouldn’t be big deal to let them stay. We’re not talking of 10-20 million slobs, but the opposite of hard workers who work for noble purposes. To kick all of them out for the sake of them being “illegal” would be irrational.
There’s more damage to be done by uprooting a healthy tree than to leave it in place, even if you personally don’t like the sight of it.

Numbers indicate U.S. census ranking by population and percentage of households in each state that speak Spanish. Only top ten are shown.
1 New Mexico 28.2
1 Texas 28.2
3 California 27.0
4 Arizona 20.7
5 Florida 17.7
6 Nevada 17.4
7 New York 14.1
8 New Jersey 13.0
9 Illinois 11.9

You’re right on the mark. Unfortunately, journalism is this country has been brow-beaten to do the bidding of special interest groups. It is politically dangerous for journalists to actually take a balanced approach to reporting, especially in California. I have no doubt that newspapers and web bloggers have been co-opted by Hispanic advertisers. After all, newspaper media has been on the decline for years now, a weakness which has left it wide open for blackmail.

The Hispanic community is growing by leaps and bound in California, a fact not lost among the state’s policiticians. Rational thought in Southern California has been abandoned in favor of doing what is politically correct in the minds of Hispanic advocacy groups. Speak out against illegal immigration in LA and you’ll quickly find yourself ostricized and called a racist, no matter how true your point is.

Whether you like to hear it or not, the facts are clear & documented: Hispanics have higher birthrates than any other ethnic immigrant groups. Hispanics do not assimilate as well as other group. Hispanics do not learn English as quickly and, in fact, resist learning because they feel they have a community of Spanish-speaking businesses and citizens already in place. Hispanics make up the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants and within that set is a subset that states they make up the overwhelming majority of unpaid visits to emergency rooms, particularly for childbirth. Hispanic illegal immigrants are overwhelmingly responsible for the financial collapse of several trauma centers and ER’s in southern California.

I don’t know how many of you live in California but if you did you would see what has happened here since 1986 – the year of the LAST great illegal amnesty. Our school system is ranked lower than Mississippi (the poorest state in the nation). If you were aware that 70% of all public school children are hispanic and that 60% of all public school children speak little to no English, the low ranking would be understandable. Our hospitals and schools are two of the most important basics in a community’s infrastructure and ours are in shambles and costing us billions of additional dollars just to keep them afloat. The main reason is the cost of illegals and their children. Add in the fact that 80% of illegals wages aren’t taxed and you have millions of people taking advantage of our services without contributing a dime to keep them running.

Unlike some who’ve posted here, I’m not a right winger. I am in face a lifelong Democrat. But I’m not an idiot. Every major economist has stated that we cannot keep taking in the number of illegals that we have in the past, especially those that have no skills, high birthrates and no English language capacity.

Maybe Marc Cooper doesn’t care what his country will look like in 10 years, but I do. No one would resent hispanics if it weren’t for the fact that – especially in the last few months – they have made it clear they have no interest in assimilating or joining our country, they are merely here to take what they can get and send most of it back to Mexico. Or perhaps Mr. Cooper isn’t aware the wages of illegals in the US are Mexico’s #1 revenue source? Maybe, Mr. Cooper, you should spend some of your energy in Mexico talking to its leaders & ask them why the hell they encourage their own citizenry to leave? Why aren’t they doing squat to improve their country? Why don’t they reimburse the US for what their citizens cost us? Don’t forget their enormous oil reserves they won’t let us touch.

We owe no apologies for wanting to take care of our own citizens first. If you think Mexicans are so much worse off that we should give them a break here, I welcome you to join me any day at the VA hospital where I volunteer. I will introduce you to homeless vets just back from Iraq, alongside their legless comrades. Or I can take you to my next trip to West Virginia or Mississippi where my church group and I go twice a year to assist poor children and single mothers who have few, if any, teeth due to malnutrition; persistent respitory problems from living in cold, damp, moldy housing. We have enough problems to take care of here. I don’t appreciate Mexico, Guatemala and El Salvdor exporting their problems to us, especially when their governments actually have the resources to take care of their people – but greedily refuse to do so. I also resent the hell out of any group coming to my country illegally then having the gall to DEMAND that I give them money, jobs, health care, education, etc all while they insult me by refusing to even attempt to learn English. By the way, your simplistic remark that we are “scared to hear Buenose Dias in a 7-11″ was exactly what’s wrong with the media today: oversimplifying a legitimate problem to make it fit your editorializing. You ought to be ashamed to call yourself a journalist, but then if you don’t, who will?

Humans are more important than money. That’s something you’ve lost in life. You talk about illegals like they were disposable comodities, casually ignoring what it would mean on the humanitarian level to send 12 million people back to where many of them felt compelled to risk their lives to leave in the first place.

You’ve got no grasp of the scope of this, other than what you can speculate from an economic viewpoint, which even that are speculations that sound dramatically different depending on whom you ask. It’s not even about facts.

The melody goes like this; very simple. Those who don’t like illegals, or whose perception of illegals is negative, and regardless why, find a plethora of reasons for why illegals are bad for the country. Most statements appear to come from extreme organizations like the American Patrol and certain redneck House Republicans. I mean, where the hell are the facts. One fact for example that you rarely hear about is the billions, not millions, but billions of dollars that illegals have already paid into Social Security. You also never hear any suggestions of other good things they’ve done. You, like all the other mentally lazy, dismiss them as a sole burden, which you even dont’ know for sure, but worse don’t care. You say they dont’ pay into the military. Well, fuck that. Their sons FIGHT in the military . That’s a skewed perpsective. You can’t have money without life.

I’m still not suggesting that the issue is black or white. Some Americans have lost their jobs due to illegals. Some Americans have lost their lives due to criminals who were illegallly here. But on the whole, on the majority, what you also fail to recognize is the vigour and resource to be found in millions of people who have done something extraordinary to just get a job.
You have to recognize that people can be an asset in other ways than economically. I’d rather welcome 12 million honest, hard-working, and foremost well-meaning people, than be crude and kick them out based on economic presumptions.
I mean, after all you and your folks invaded Iraq for selfish reasons so you’re hardly better yourself in that regard. It’s not even a lack of verified facts regarding statements, but there’s this in-your-face doubble standard. Most House Republicans are as fiercly against an amnesty for illegals as they are passionately pro the war in Iraq. It’s just incredibly inconsistent stance, both morally and logically.

And yet, the Senate bill for instance, which favors a path toward citizenship for illegals, doesn’t even target all of estimated millions of illegals here, but is selective. It appears to not even be an option on the table to grant amnesty to all of the illegals who are here.

As for the scrupulous corporations you talk about who are the ones that hire illegals, as opposed to them being welcome by average citizens. Immigration is firstly a force that goes mighty beyond local politics. Illegal immigration will happen as long as there are economic imbalances in the world. You can’t treat immigration, legal or illegal, in the scope of your own local backyard. It just doesn’t match reality.
That’s why it’s common sense to legislate according to the broader picture, not try to suppress it forcibly like the dumb House Republicans attempt at doing. But we’ll get to that, the problem with them is that they don’t mind when others die.

Human value is not based upon income. Human value is absolute. You can’t replace it.

Don’t you think that 10 – 20 million Americans crossing the border without going through the Mexican customs and immigration would cause some resentment in Mexico? Americans have every right to resent their illegal presence in this country. We’re no less human other Western nations who find themselves with an illegal immigrant problem. I’m just surprised that some our more radical elements in this country haven’t caused Mexicans more difficulty.

I can guarrantee that the less tolerant among us would be more aggressive to illegal aliens if we were in a recession. Can you imagine the social unrest caused if amnesty occurred in conjunction with an economic downturn, with citizens screaming at their Congressmen that they have to compete with millions of newly adopted Mexican poor, for jobs that they were told that they would not do? Does anyone really think that these substitutes for American workers could ever be sent home should this situation ever arise on the path to citizenship? It’s sad that we pit low cost illegal immigrants against citizens during this prosperous period. Pitting citizens against amnestied illegal aliens against each other in a recession would be tragic, indeed.

And what percentage of these illegal workers are nice to have around in good times and expendable in bad? It’s nice to have someone do your landscaping or clean you pool when times are good, but low skill labor is always the first to be dispensed with. No one really knows the stability of the illegal immigrants employment situation.