SloBo NoMo
I don't want the weekend to pass without at least briefly commemorating the long-too-delayed passing of one Slobodan Milosevic.Â
Good-bye and good riddance. Slobo is no longer "undaunted." He's now just plain dead. Ramsey Clark will now have more time to devote to defending Saddam Hussein.
March 12th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
I am not ashamed to be happy that the SOB is dead.
March 12th, 2006 at 6:05 pm
Clinton administration’s embrace of Croatia follows a history of support for fascists when it suits American geopolitical interests: Chile’s Augusto Pinochet, Indonesia’s Suharto, Paraguay’s Aifredo Stroessner, and a host of others. The consequences of this policy for the people affected have been devastating.
Although the American people were told that the 79 days of bombing of Yugoslavia was a “humanitarian” effort to “stop ethnic cleansing,” the facts indicate no ethnic cleansing took place. It was the KLA itself that was ordering the Albanians to flee, and most Albanians AND Serbs were fleeing the NATO bombs. Yet, still there was no change in the US policy in Serbia. Clinton still insisted on keeping sanctions in place in an effort to destroy the Serbs.
Maybe the “good Germans” didn’t know about the concentration camps–it’s amazing how little Americans know–we seem to have the retention level of a very tiny nat.
March 12th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
Either that or a complete wacky version of history unsupported by facts. Citr an objective nuetral source who agrees with this? I know longer believe anything you say.
March 12th, 2006 at 6:35 pm
Eleanore kjellberg
Someone has been listening to gold old Ramsey… Or maybe Cockburn.
Srebrenica was bit cleansing? Maybe re-education?
I think you are a bit confused, Milosevic was the National Socialist. Not that all three of the ethnic groups were not consumed by nationalism, but the Serbs were the only ones who actually had an offical policy of genocide.
The NATO intervention did work and Serbians are better off. If you had your way, the population of Kosovo will still be enduring genocidal violence.
BTW… 60% of the casualties were Bosnians…
March 12th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
The line is supposed to read:
Srebrenica was not cleansing? Maybe re-education?
In case you do not know what Srebrenica was, that was a massacre by the Serb military of 7000 people in one day.
You might not remember because you have the “retention level of a very tiny nat.”
Keep looking out for the “good” Serb fascists.
March 12th, 2006 at 7:04 pm
Thanks for reminding us of your conventional liberalism.
March 12th, 2006 at 7:12 pm
http://www.libertysoft.com/liberty/features/76steele.html
I know you guys were distracted by Monica Lewinsky; Yugoslavia was not on your mind–every President needs to test his U.S. war toys–unfortunately there usually tested on innocent civilians who don’t enjoy being played with.
Mark,
It breaks my heart that you don’t believe me–I’ll let you remain in your “fantasy land” or is that Disney World.
March 12th, 2006 at 7:43 pm
“I know longer believe anything you say.”
WTHeck… KNOW longer????
No longer
Can’t believe any self respecting law school would take you.
March 12th, 2006 at 8:05 pm
Roper it’s a Freudian slip. Is a typo the best criticism you can amass against me on a blog platform that has less editorial control for commenters than blogspot? I’m actually fighting your battle which proves truth is my only concern over propaganda from either political side. I learned that from my journalism degree from CSUN.
March 12th, 2006 at 8:13 pm
I’m thrilled that David Boaz et al can deounce the Serbian atrocities as “testing toys.” Facsinating reading really, but farcical in reality.
March 12th, 2006 at 8:58 pm
“I don’t want the weekend to pass without at least briefly commemorating the long-too-delayed passing of one Slobodan Milosevic.”
I think I will let the weekend pass without commenting on him.
March 12th, 2006 at 9:09 pm
“I know you guys were distracted by Monica Lewinsky; Yugoslavia was not on your mind”
I actually protested the war. I remember listening to Mr. Parenti talk about how NATO was trying to remove the last Socialist country in Europe.
Luckily I came to my senses when I learned the truth about the conflict.
If the US was testing war tows, What was Milosevic doing? His mass murder was somehow legit? You got to be kidding me Eleanore.
Pull up any source from the far fringes of the looney left that you want. Defend the Serbian fascists. I am actually convinced that you are a creation of Marc to keep things interesting, you cannot possibly be a real person.
March 12th, 2006 at 9:10 pm
I also learned the truth about Parenti, Ramsey, and the self proclaimed “left.”
March 13th, 2006 at 4:56 am
York, I agree and appreciate that you oppose the Serbian fascists as Josh Legere so eloquently put it. I also appreciate the fact that you and I both think Eleanore is all wet on this issue. But amigo, believe me, it was not a “Freudian slip” it was inattentiveness. A Freudian Slip is a verbal mistake that is thought to reveal an unconscious belief, thought, or emotion.
One of the reasons I yank your chain so often is that you almost always come across as being so narcissistic that nothing anyone says that even slightly disagrees with you will fail to earn a slapdown or a “bomb-thrower” or a “wing-nuttery” comment.
But, I will stop from now on.
March 13th, 2006 at 6:23 am
Eleanore Kjellberg is part of that interesting sub-species of leftists(Mostly Americans and Brits) who willingly rationalise acts of evil, simply because the perpetrators are anti-American dictators. I know four principles of local high schools and middle schools who have had to fire expat American and British English teachers because they devoted grammer lessons to decrying every American president starting with Washington as being rascist war criminals. Who do they love, Chavez, Castro, and the poor misunderstood Milosevic.
Frydek-Mistek
March 13th, 2006 at 7:44 am
I don’t think anyone rationalizes Milosevic, who was a violent, war criminal thug of the first order. The fact remains that the violence in the Balkans - including the historically inarguable and documented collaboration of Peter Galbraith and the Americans in arming and assisting the Croatian Nazi sympathizer/AntiSemites who flew the old Ustashe flag, in the single biggest act of ethnic cleansing of the Balkan wars - Operation Storm in which 200,000 Serbs were cleansed from majority Serb regions of what became Croatia. It is also historically documented that the United States encouraged the breakup of Yugoslavia. As well, Jihadis, including Bin Laden, who himself admitted as much to Robert Fisk, were involved with Bosnians.
This is not at all to absolve Milosevic (whose hands are far less bloody than Bush or to take the side that (very few) Leftists take, that he was a hero, a socialist. This is however to say two things - one, by all accounts nothing that America/NATO did in the Balkans contributed to anything positive except exarcerbating problems. This was admitted even by Wesley Clark during the Kosovo war. This is also to say that history is more complicated than simple labels and to celebrate any man’s death is in poor taste. Even Daniel Ortega, when prompted, did not choose to say naty things about Reagan on his death.
March 13th, 2006 at 8:42 am
Roper inattentiveness in blogposting on the fly is hardly a crime either. I edit my work where more is on the line than here. I think there’s much more than a slight disagreement here. The more one posts the more folks pile on. It’s goes with the territory. Wing-nuttery is common to all of these discusions on both ends. Bombthrowing is precisely what some apologists approve of as long as it’s the “oppressed” doing it. I’m afraid this is reductionist and too simple for serious debate. You may not like my level of self-esteem but it stems from hard work and a whole lot of knocks, many unjustified.
March 13th, 2006 at 8:44 am
almost always come across as being so narcissistic that nothing anyone says that even slightly disagrees with you will fail to earn a slapdown or a “bomb-thrower†or a “wing-nuttery†comment.
My own stupidity…. I meant that
“strong>anything anyone says… will earn a slapdown…”
March 13th, 2006 at 8:45 am
almost always come across as being so narcissistic that nothing anyone says that even slightly disagrees with you will fail to earn a slapdown or a “bomb-thrower†or a “wing-nuttery†comment.
My own stupidity…. I meant that
anything anyone says… will earn a slapdown…”
March 13th, 2006 at 8:46 am
damn I’m fumble fingered today… Rosedog, is you contageous? LOL
March 13th, 2006 at 9:10 am
The comments are always personal and come at me first. Disagreement, roper doesn’t contitute slapdown. of course if your ideas fail to pass muster that is a defeat for the idea and and can be perceived as such. The terminology are “loaded words.” They aren’t mine.
March 13th, 2006 at 9:10 am
There is no question that Tudjman was a war criminal. In fact, Tudjman and Milsoevic were willing partners in excaserbating ethnic tensions and pushing Jugoslavia into war.
There is no question that the US has backed corrupt regimes and nefarious groups. However, there was nothing complicated about the Milosevic dictatorship. Corrupt police, party thugs who intimidated demonstrators, vote rigging state control of television, and dcoumented proof of Serb arms dealers arming bosbian Serb death squads.
In fact, come to Belgrade today and witness for yourself Milosevic’s(and his wife) legacy of Socialism. You’ll find that Jugoslavia is a hopelessly corrupt mafia state that was willingly installed by Slobodan.
March 13th, 2006 at 10:51 am
JCummings
So the US was responsible for the break up of Yugp, Bin Laden, Croat nationalism, etc… Why not throw in the Nazis and Stalin as well. For gods sake, get a grip.
The US is guilty not of causing the problems, but not intervening earlier. Bush 1 and Clinton ignored the problem.
I also not sure sure that you can really be serious about Milosevic’s hands being “far less bloody” than Bush. As much as I loath Bush, that is an absurd statement to say the least.
“nothing that America/NATO did in the Balkans contributed to anything positive except exarcerbating problems”
You wanna know how I can disprove this? The Serbs are no longer engaged in mass murder. And they stopped after the NATO intervention. So yes, the NATO intervention worked.
If you had your way, Milosevic would still be in power and still murdering Albanians.
March 13th, 2006 at 11:03 am
“You wanna know how I can disprove this? The Serbs are no longer engaged in mass murder. And they stopped after the NATO intervention. So yes, the NATO intervention worked.”
Agreed, and that was one military intervention I supported at the time and still do in hindsight. I could be wrong but it beats the leftism-by-the-numbers approach of people like Eleanore. I suppose the US was after Serbia’s oil reserves?
March 13th, 2006 at 11:24 am
“but it beats the leftism-by-the-numbers approach”
Precisely. Kind of like the “let all the immigants in now!” approach of the open border race-baiting A.N.S.W.E.R. loons. Pwogwessives to the wescue!
March 13th, 2006 at 11:37 am
I never said that I would prefer Milosevic in power. As Robin Blackburn pointed out before the 99 Kosovo war, there was a mass opposition to Milosevic among Serbs, that (later) overthrew him. The Kosovo war hurt that opposition movement by having America bomb bridges and radio stations.
Milosevic, as I said was a thug, but a piker compared with Bush.
March 13th, 2006 at 11:41 am
“Milosevic, as I said was a thug, but a piker compared with Bush.”
I think this false analogy is telling and why the far left is irrelevant. I’ve had Lebanese students tell me we were after THEIR oil.
Agree with Balter.
March 13th, 2006 at 11:52 am
Bush - responsible for at least 100,000 deaths, torture, actual change of government structures.
Milosevic - may or may not be responsible for pushing his militias to comitt what are inarguably war crimes.
I agree that Milosevic was a war criminal, and perhaps my comparison and use of the phrase “piker” was not the right phrase. I maintain however that I can’t take anyone seriously who decries war crimes by official enemies but not by the US state itself. Some of these war crimes, comitted by Clinton and W Clark, were during the Kosovo adventure - which as noted W Clark himself admitted (between calling for “maximum violence”) made things worse for Kosovars and Serbs alike.
The real Orwellian statement above is that people who refuse to countenance American actions endorse Saddam/Milosevic/etc. staying in power. These are weasel words, that deny the agency of the Serb people in particular, who were ready to overthrow Milosevic.
March 13th, 2006 at 11:56 am
Also “The Serbs” is a racist phrase. It demonizes a whole people many of whom opposed Milosevic.
March 13th, 2006 at 12:16 pm
“Milosevic - may or may not be responsible for pushing his militias to comitt what are inarguably war crimes.”
This is clear lunacy.
March 13th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
Lunacy. Real great argumentative skills there pal. I admit that there were typos in what I wrote, but in no way do you substantively respond to what I have to say. If there was prima facie evidence of Milosevic’s direct involvement in these crimes, he would have been convicted a long time ago. There isn’t a smoking gun. I personally believe him to be responsible.
I notice that my actual point is being ducked.
March 13th, 2006 at 12:33 pm
This is jaw-dropping stuff. J Cummings is Exhibit A in what is meant by a self-loathing left. Spin the wheel and wherever it stops it’s always the same answer: those primary responsible for evil are the U.S. Government.
In the case of the Balkans, it was Milosevic that was responsible for prosecuting four — count them, four– wars that shredded millions of lives. Trudgman was certainly a fascist — but he’s the piker compared to Slobo. And yes there were a few jihadists in Bosnia, who themselves were pikers compared to the artillery units of the Serbians. And yes, the U.S. (along with equally morally corrupt Western Europe) played patty cake too long with all the wrong folks. But none of that changes the central fact: Milosevic was the undisputed Butcher of the Balkans, one of the true great war criminals of our times.
I opposed the invasion of Kosovo at the time. It looks to me that history has proven me wrong. Virtually none of the predictions I — and others– made at the time have come to pass. Meanwhile, cut the cake anyway you want, but since the invasion and the subsequent fall of Milosevic, a decade’s worth of bloodletting has halted.
I find the pussyfooting, the temporizing, and the rationales around his person as sterling evidence as to why the “hard left” is so hard up. It’s also kind of nauseating, frankly.
March 13th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
I don’t find statements decalring Bush the ultimate killing dictator substantive. I think Slobo directed these crimes. I think the record makes this clear, and now moot. And your point was what?
March 13th, 2006 at 12:54 pm
[...] SloBo NoMo [...]
March 13th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
“I could be wrong but it beats the leftism-by-the-numbers approach of people like Eleanore.”
“I find the pussyfooting, the temporizing, and the rationales around his person as sterling evidence as to why the “hard left†is so hard up.”
If these people are “left,” they represent a whacked-out version of it.
The Iraq War was a gift to those few who are “hard” left, showing the big bad Imperialists true colors. However the New York Times reported some of the declassified Iraq Pentagon Papers yesterday. “Much of this material is included in a secret history prepared by the American military of how Mr. Hussein and his commanders fought their war.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/international/middleeast/12saddam.html
“The Iraqi dictator was so secretive and kept information so compartmentalized that his top military leaders were stunned when he told them three months before the war that he had no weapons of mass destruction, and they were demoralized because they had counted on hidden stocks of poison gas or germ weapons for the nation’s defense.”
Why didn’t he come clean to the IAEA? He was convinced America wouldn’t invade, because of American casualties.
“But Americans committed genocide and ethnic cleansing on native Americans” sez the “hard” “lefty”. Yah, so?
March 13th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
“committed genocide and ethnic cleansing on native Americans”
Not really. They’re still here, so once again not all this or all that either or fallacy.
March 13th, 2006 at 3:00 pm
I ain’t American, so I ain’t self-loathing. I’m busy in Canada trying to keep Pro-Americans from taking over two of our major political parties. Ignatieff is gaining in popularity, though there is strong resistance to him… Call me Anti-American if you want, I certainly love travelling in the States. I also don’t like, in Trudeau’s words, to have to catch cold every time the Yanks sneeze.
Nothing I say negates what Cooper says (except that you think Milosevic was worst than Tudjiman - but we can split the difference on that one.) I too am disgusted by some alleged leftists who sympathize with Milosevic as a “socialist.” I am not part of that camp.
At the same time, the only people I will trust in criticizing Milosevic are those who apply the same standards to American and Western leaders. Especially liberals who loved all the Balkan adventures but can’t stand Bush, not understanding that like the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act, the illegal war on Serbia in 1999 was a war crime. Until one acknowledges that, then they can’t be taken seriously in their critique of Milosevic, who was a butcher, like Clinton and Bush.
March 13th, 2006 at 3:04 pm
Addendum - hit submit too fast - my reference to the Anti-Terrorism etc. act was to make the point that Clinton paved the way for Bush, both domestically and in foreign policy. If anything, Clinton was worse, at least because he didn’t provoke enough left opposition.
March 13th, 2006 at 3:14 pm
“Until one acknowledges that, then they can’t be taken seriously in their critique of Milosevic, who was a butcher, like Clinton and Bush”
I guess it depends where you buy your beef–some only eat kosher–beware 3 cases of Mad Cow disease have been reported today.
March 13th, 2006 at 7:20 pm
“the illegal war on Serbia in 1999 was a war crime. Until one acknowledges that, then they can’t be taken seriously in their critique of Milosevic, who was a butcher, like Clinton and Bush.”
I’m afraid this is the same muddleheadedness as the Puffin guy on Huffington. Ask Samantha Power who was genocidal? I doubt if two American presidents would make her list but then she’s a scholar, as opposed to someone with an opinion and relativistic false analogy so…