Inicentally, while service in the military isn’t a ticket to righteousness when it comes to the issues at hand, Jack Murtha’s contacts in the Pentagon and his consistency in speaking out strongly as an advocate for the “defense” community count for a hell of a lot and suggest a rather dramatic subtext and context for his declarations. Cheney on the other hand is just a fucking idiot. Lowest credibility of any administration figure with name recognition – a ranking he’s rather righteously earned. (Which means that Doug Feith still retains the “stupidest fucking guy on the planet” award that Tommy Franks and Lawrence Wilkerson have awarded him.)

I’ll give you credit for having some spunk in your posts, but you do go a bit overboard. It is rather poor form on your part to go into all the near-personal and outright personal attacks, but hey, if that’s the way you argue, believe me my friend, I’ve got skin plenty thick enough to handle your insults. Just don’t give me any crap about how pro-war types have demeaned war-opponents…I have never ridiculed you.

My original point still stands: You claimed to have known how evil Saddam really was, but I, nor I doubt anyone else, can see how you’d have dealt with Saddam in any successful way short of war.

My second paragraph was a nod to Mr. Schilling. But if you want to jump in on that part, fine. Please start by explaining that 98-0 vote of the Senate. Was that not an entrance strategy? And Mr. reg, do not tell me that I — as a long registered Democrat — did not clearly read with my own eyes the essay Mr. Packer wrote in early 2002 in Mother Jones. From your comments, I’m not so sure you’d like to bother reading it. But on one part I’ll actually agree with you. That’s about Mr. Packer. He is one of the most astute writers in the U.S. But I disagree with you that my “ilk” should not reference him. Yes I do own a copy of his latest book — I’m about half way through with it. And I’ve got Sy Hersh’s book on Abu Ghraib, and have read Fallows’ Atlantic column…(I actually laughed when you said I’m drinking the same stuff as Hitchens. Coming from you, I’ll register that as a compliment. One could do a lot worse than Hitchens). Your name-dropping these writers — oh, by the way, you forget to accuse me of being a Paul Berman fan — doesn’t mean you’ve successfully used them to bolster your own agrument.

Fallow’s insights about the war and the U.S. military’s troubles in building up an Iraqi army are quite sobering. I especially noted how Fallows mentioned severly times the huge misunderstanding(s) that frequently result from a lack of translators and Arabic-speaking troops. (Slate’s Kaplan as been exceptional on this area) I’ve been bitching about this for a long time — at least once on this board and many others. But as dire and urgent a picture that Fallows paints (and he’s mostly right about this), his essay gives the impression that building up the Iraqi army and grading it by U.S. standards is the end-all of the matter. Fallows tips his hand early on in claiming its all part of the U.S. exit strategy. Really? Where exactly are we exiting to and why? Drawing down troops? Yes. But I’ve news for you. We’re not really leaving anytime soon. And I think you might know this as well. You’re partially on to something when you mention the Iranians. Which itself is a strong reason to stick around, no? So why should we vacate then, and also, especially when it looks like Syria is getting ready to buckle? We should have a strong military presence in the region if that should happen. Fallow’s essay almost only tells us about the state of Iraq’s new army. But he mentions preciously little about the Iraqi’s themselves. Sure, they’re pissed about being occupied. But where is there any acknowledgement about institution-building and albeit slow, but steady progress of civil society, despite the hellish murderers and mayhem by the ex-Baathists and jihadists?

“Frankly, if I had been a war supporter I’d be more pissed at these geeks than I already am.” Well that’s a nifty way to absolve yourself of responsibilty on this whole subject, but it’s necessary to state this, because it’s needed in order for you to make by far your weakest claim. And that is where you demean a number of commentors, myself included as “Keyboard Kommandos.” Or where you have to give some space to “Freddy the Pig” just in case he’s in the military, and in Iraq. Nevermind that you couldn’t possibly know how many hundreds of dollars money I’ve already donated to Iraqi democrats and other groups in that country. Or how many letters I written to my elected representatives. Or how many forums, debates, and the like I’ve attended and tried to participate in. This notion of “join up or shut up” is the most idiotic babble that anyone can make. And sadly I’ve read is line from more than a couple people I thought should know better, including on this board. Reg, should I demand that you subordinate your own views of foreign policy to those of mine, since I’m a holder of a DD 214 and you are not? No, not in this country. It has never been that way. Nor should it start. This nation is run by civilians and it’s civilian leaders who tell the military what it’s orders are and not the other way around. Therefore, anyone, is entitled to their say per their own fact of citizenship.

Until we argue again, have nice day reg.

I’ve got to get out of here, but here’s my plan. I’d get the best military minds together who’ve been pointing out the problems with BushCo’s Blindered Blunder since about Day One – Gens. Zinni, Clark & Shinseki for starters along with men from the current command who seem to have been least tainted by the politics and RummyBuffing, along with men in Congress who aren’t partisan hacks and have strong links to the military, like Congressman Murtha and, yes, John Warner and McCain, and State Department people who have strong credibility and expertise in the diplomacy arena. Then I’d hear them all out, pick an advisory team based on those seemed to have had the most consistently credible grasp and foresight as things proceeded and come up with a forward plan based on their experience and judgement. That’s the best I can do and I’m not sure what it would be precisely. Suffice to say that this war has been run according to the Wish Lists of some very dubious civilians and if the people in the military and State and Congress who’s earliest doubts have been proven right many times over had been listened to, we would be in – at worst – far less of a mess. I’m not a Keyboard Kommando, so I don’t come up with Plans or claim to know how to Rule The World or Transform The Middle East. People who do are mostly nutcases (see above). Unfortunately, I’m also not as much of a moron as a President who trusted Dick Cheney and Doug Feith’s fever dreams, thought Paul Wolfowitz knew what he was talking about when he made statements like “there’ll be no problem of ethnic strife”, let Rummy fire General Shinseki for telling the truth and roll the State Department people who did the occupation planning he was contemptuous of, etc. (Read Larry Diamond’s book and Packers, as well as Hirsch’ reporting.) Frankly, if I’d been a war supporter I’d be more pissed at these geeks than I already am.

When I say “unfortunately I’m not as much of a moron as the President”, I mean it. I really and truly wish he’d been smarter about his job, less reckless, wiser and more responsible than some marginal sideline carper such as myself. Our country is truly in terrible shape for that fact.

Freddy…if you’ve been in Iraq, I apologize. I have a funny feeling none is in order. You, however, were the arrogant asshole who was telling me what you thought I really thought in 1991 – so you’re protestations about what I don’t know about you, making assumptions, etc. are a bit disingenuous. But if you’re in the military, I do indeed apologize. If you’re just another Keyboard Kommando, you know where to stuff it.

If I’m “clapped out”, you’re in a coma.

You’ve just reiterated the nature of your particular delusion.

To the extent I can figure out what he’s saying, yes, he does appear to be saying that to think that the Middle East was anything other than paradise on earth before evil Bush messed it up is delusional.

Another sad case, and more reason for why the hope that the Democrats might eventually construct a logical and effective foreign policy paradigm for Bush’s World is still years away.

You’ve just reiterated the nature of your particular delusion. Again, the kind of nonsensical rhetorical garbage I’m sick of…

Screw you…you’re exactly the kind of carping, increasingly irrelevant moron I’m sick of. You’ve got no arguments that don’t boil down to stale rhetoric. Meanwhile, serious people like James Fallows and George Packer have long passed you by. If you’re such a gung ho bastard, go over there and do something don’t sit at your keyboard like Rob and make idiotic comments like “Shoot straight my comrades in arms.” Your comrades in arms are Jonah Goldberg, Little Billy Kristol and Byron York. Don’t “John Wayne” me, asshole.

I have to admit, Rob, you got one thing right. It’s also “bad” that you think it’s a fucking joke.

Yeah, I mean, how many times can they have free elections in Iraq? What is this, the third one in a year? That’s so yesterday.

And I love your I-was-for-overthrowing-Saddam-in-1991-before-I-was-against-it-in-2003 stance. Somehow, if there’d been an Internet then (no, don’t write and “correct” me), I doubt we’d find that you were gung ho as John Wayne to throw the bastard out.

Look, I’m not entirely happy about how we got to this point but you know, I wasn’t so deluded as to think that the situation before Bush upset the Middle East apple cart was anything to be happy about either. We have the party of hubris and the party of useless carping from the sidelines. At least the first has some prospect of making things better for us, as it has already made things substantially better, however imperfect, for 25 million Iraqis.

Happened after the first Gulf war and we didn’t offer the support we should have (although the no-fly zones in Kurdistan were a success).
As for speculative preemption, it’s a completely counterproductive approach. And what little triumphalism your ilk ( and I use that pejorativve because I recall the kind of crap you guys were leveling at us before your fantasies began to fade) can still muster, be prepared for a great victory in Iraq – for the Iranians when their Shiite brothers ultimately control the country. Anybody who couldn’t see that one coming isn’t a competent observer of the regional politics and if you don’t think Iran is far better positioned to pick up the pieces after this slow-motion civil war than the Gang That Couldn’t Shoot Straight, you’ve been drinking the same stuff as Hitchens.

You really don’t have a clue, do you ?

I thought that it was idiotic in 1991 not to give air cover to the Shiites and Kurds who rose against Saddam. Just as blatantly idiotic as the half-baked policy you’ve supported so glibly these last few. So get off your hjigh horse. And “mistakes” doesn’t even begin to describe the incompetence of this administration. Early on, as much as I was certain the arguments used to sway the public to support the war were bullshit (as we all now know) , I had a pretty benign attitude toward it the war once it was a fait accompli. I had no idea the guys in charge were as full of shit and irresponsible (criminally negligent in CPA advisor Larry Diamond’s view) as they’ve turned out to be. As for Packer…truly stupid for you to bring him up, unless you’ve not read Assassin’s Gate. Probably not. Packer’s too honest and well informed for your ilk. As for the Democrats being irrelevant in foreign policy, well to the degree that was ever true, BushCo has changed that equation rather remarkably. No one will trust this crowd ever again, and given the problems we still face, even i have to admit that’s a goddam shame.

Frankly, Rob, only an idiot would persist with your lame protestations at this point.

One needed worry about whether President Bush would be taking a beating on this lovely outpost of opine.

Exceptional clarity of thought tonight must be credited to Mr. REG (sorry, I just had to put it caps). reg would skewer Mr. Schilling’s wish list as rhetorically ironic, yet, between the vim and vigor of reg’s post[ings], I’d wager he misses his own ironic snare. Anti-war reg (and others) can posit the “blatantly obvious fact that Saddam was a bloody tyrant, which most of us knew back when The Don was kissing his evil ass for the The Gripper” and will never be able to say, or admit that we should have sacked Saddam. Nope, just could not say that. At least Cooper hints that it might have been necessary, just not an “immediate” action. So, we can know of Saddam’s evilness–much of which our nation pitifully helped along–but the U.S. can never do anything about. We can’t ever right a wrong can we, reg? “Somaza is a sonofabitch,” FDR once said, “but at least he’s our sonofabitch.” I suppose there was somehow going to be a FSLN-like uprising in Iraq SOMEDAY that would sweep ol’Saddam along.

Sadly, Mr. Schilling, as a Liberal Democrat myself, I’d have to agree with a lot of your remarks. In the Feb 2002 edition of Mother Jones (a rapid hot-bed of Ann Coulter readers, right reg?) George Packer wrote an eye-rubbingly sober portrait of how utterly void and irrelevant the Democratic Party had become on foreign policy. The Democrats, my sad-ass party, could not (and still does not) put together a coherent policy position on Iraq after 8 years of Clinton. Not even after a 1998 98-0 vote in the Senate for regime change of Saddam — an entrance strategy if you will — could they put two and two together. No war. Very, very evil man– but no war. War bad. Especially if Bush gets to promote it.

So, yep, we’re at a far, far, disdant place from peace and troops coming home. I know that, thank you very much. It’s apparent that the Bush Administration has committed some seriously assine mistakes in this war’s prosecution. By far the biggest failure is not explaining to the American people that this could not, can not, be a short war. reg, you can lambaste the President as furosiously as anyone on this point. But to have left Saddam in power? No way. It’s better to have attempted something good, than to have perfected something bad. Something to chew on as everyone takes a bite out of George Bush’s ass.