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September 1st, 2010 at 1:01 am
It seems to me the reason why we went to war in Iraq is fairly obvious: The Bush cabal thought that a quick and easy victory would result in a government that would be just as pro-American as Kuwait, from which they could create a US sphere of influence, with a major US garrison projecting power throughout the region, intimidating enemies and providing leverage over heretofore dodgy allies such as Saudi Arabia. Leaving aside everything else that was wrong with that scenario, a major weakness of the theory is that any attempt to create a sphere of influence in the Middle East would have one mandatory prerequisite: We would all have to convert to Islam.
Depending on the modern day Democratic Party is like depending on Pakistan. As with Pakistan, the problem is we have no alternative.
September 1st, 2010 at 9:48 am
I saw Engle last night and as I’ve been following his generally very good reporting for a while, I was taken aback that he described the situation as forthrightly as he did. I’ve sensed that he’s been measuring his words, and he clearly has. He pretty much declared the war a strategic failure for the US – which has been obvious for a long time, but reporters tend to back away from stating. As for the Iraqi political exile class – they get to hammer at each other until some faction “wins,” hopefully without unleashing another full-blown civil war.
Obama, incidentally, was far too generous and his honest quotient absurdly tepid in his characterization of the Bush war scheme. He’s got to be “presidential” in these moments, especially when much of the focus is on the very real sacrifices that a tiny sliver of our populace actually made to “secure” something that was bullshit from Day One and financed by the fairy tale of tax cuts in wartime for everyone else who didn’t actually serve serial deployments, but the phoniness of tipping his hat to Bush was unnerving and creepy.
September 1st, 2010 at 10:49 am
test
September 1st, 2010 at 11:30 am
And then there was the stunning wisdom of the intellectual
community on the invasion…..
“There are many stupid reasons to be for the invasion,
NO SMART REASONS TO BE AGAINT IT. What do you
hate, war or fascism? I like that it’s risky…”
Yep, even Tony Blair has expressed a rather muted,
morally confused sadness over the dead of Iraq, Christopher
Hitchens expresses no such sorrow. Indeed, when
Al Gore and Hillary Clinton voiced real time objections
to the invasion, Hitchens wished on them “wasting
diseases.” Publicly.
Well, it’s a lost cause to hope Coop will ever hold his
drinking buddies accountable. Yet to complain of Obama’s
slightly gruesome speech, the DEMS failure to
provide leadership, right after a plug for Hitchens’s
dainty slapping of Glen Beck…
We invaded Iraq because we elected a crew of reactionary
idiots stupid enough to do so. How? Well, probably the
most competent Presidential Candidate of our time had
been cartooned into a bumbling, lying, ruthless buffoon
by the National Media, by fools like Mo Dowd (read HER
post speech take!) Christopher Hitchens, and Marc
Cooper. Anyone truly bitter about Iraq and the terrible
shape we are in would do well to chew on that.
Then start thinking about why there is never any
reporting on the defense budget…
September 1st, 2010 at 11:34 am
4th Time – there is no reporting on the defense budget because it is fully funded by tax cuts. Unlike Social Security, which everyone knows is broke and will bankrupt the country shortly after the 2012 elections.
September 1st, 2010 at 11:38 am
By the way, someone – like Hitchens – can be a total ass and reactionary on certain things and right about others. Sort of like Orrin Hatch being the only crusty, moribund, half-wit GOPer Senator to step forward and defend the integrity of guaranteeing 1st Amendment rights for the Cordoba House folks. He probably is motivated by the fact that he’s a member of a crackpot sect that was mercilessly persecuted just a century or so back, but he’s still doing the right thing. I wouldn’t refrain from quoting his comments in that particular context.
September 1st, 2010 at 11:47 am
And what do YOU propose, 4th Time Around? Attacking Marc for his friends (Is Maureen Dowd a friend of yours, Marc?) is just mean-spirited and unhelpful. In elections one must choose among the choices at hand, not whine about the unfairness of the system. D’s ARE better than R’s, in the aggregate. One shudders to think that Meg and Carly would win in California, for example. That said, if we are not able to present an alternative to empire that the American people will support, and that damn soon, we are certainly doomed
September 1st, 2010 at 11:51 am
A footnote to the “war is over”:
Here’s Alan Simpson of the Catfood Commission on the inconvenience of all of those veterans – especially in the wake of wars funded by tax cuts:
“The irony (is) that the veterans who saved this country are now, in a way, not helping us to save the country in this fiscal mess,” said Simpson, an Army veteran who was once chairman of the Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee. (via Steve Benen, Washington Monthly.)
We’ll need to keep an eye on this next post-war influx of greedy vets who served so well in time of war, but now threaten the tax cuts of the people they merely work for. I’m sure Alan Simpson will find a way to keep these “little people” (sic-”simpsonism”) in their place. Because Alan Simpson is a great patriot who loves his country…
September 1st, 2010 at 12:55 pm
And don’t forget, Brad, that 4th Time is under the monstrous delusion that there would be a different outcome in Iraq and Afghanistan had Hilary been elected. A laugher if there ever was one.
September 1st, 2010 at 1:19 pm
“We invaded Iraq because we elected a crew of reactionary idiots stupid enough to do so. How? Well, probably the most competent Presidential Candidate of our time had been cartooned into a bumbling, lying, ruthless buffoon
by the National Media, by fools like Mo Dowd (read HER post speech take!) Christopher Hitchens, and Marc Cooper. Anyone truly bitter about Iraq and the terrible shape we are in would do well to chew on that. ”
Our blog host should not be immune from critique especially since he dishes it out, in a style which is at times belligerent, surely why give it back? But god dammit your perspective is so obsessive in its focus that it borders on, nay is, pathological. To reduce every substantial moral and political issue, post 2000 elections, to some grand morality play between the always virtuous Clinton/Gore duo and their parasitic enemies, is to view the world through bizarrely insular, inherently myopic lenses. Move on with you focus, man.
ps Marc I know that you don’t exactly break bread with this Cockburn’s ,nor link to Alex’s site but Patrick- one of the better journalistic minds, who for years has provided a wealth of information about pre and post war Iraq-has one of the better diagnosis’ of this war’s so called end. His conclusion: Iraq is left with no real central governing authority, its oil wealth will produce a kind of stability even as violence continues, and that Iran- by way of its strong influence over the Iraqi government–has gained a much stronger foothold in the region.
http://www.counterpunch.org/patrick08312010.html
September 1st, 2010 at 2:50 pm
There is no way George Bush and Dick Cheney could have empowered Iran. You must be mad, Ahmed. Next you’re going to try to convince us that Ronald Reagan aided and abetted Saddam’s war crimes…
September 1st, 2010 at 4:12 pm
An important end-game “lesson” for neo-con triumphalists, pro-war revisionists, et. al. to absorb (but they won’t):
http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/08/31/todays_iraq_redeployment_made_possible_by_our_deadline_0
September 2nd, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Dan O Says:
August 30th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
God damn. Don’t attack any of Anna’s favorite figures–it seems to make the top come off.
Jung seems to do some post-war backpedaling on the Nazi question. There are certainly some iffy positions on his part–he’s not the saint you make him out to be. Read this for a take on that subject: http://amzn.to/aCvGtV
I can’t believe that shit is where you are taking your talking point from. God, what sloppy-dangerous scholarship.
1. I knew several analysts who had worked with Jung or were one generation removed.
Your irresponsible accusation is disgusting and makes you no better than a Fox news fuck wit.
Go to the source, asshole. Repeating that sort of tripe from some asshole’s revisionist history tome is despicable.
Why not just be a holocaust denier, too, while you are at it…
September 2nd, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Dan O “God damn. Don’t attack any of Anna’s favorite figures–it seems to make the top come off.”
I’m being picky here but this strikes me as a pot meets kettle moment for Dan O someone who, IMHO, pays far too much deference to the previously discussed and rightly admonished Paul Berman. To Berman and his acolytes (Rob G was daamn awful in that debate) any disagreement with their idol Ayaan Hiri Ali, even one premised by an acknowledgment of her courage, is treated as a betrayal of secularism, free speech, enlightenment, ice cream and long walks on the beach. It’s not hard to see then how such a bombastic discourse, premised by absurd accusations of “moral cowardliness”, creates fertile conditions for the self appointed guardians of ground zero to emit their toxic fumes. Richard Kim knows where its at
http://www.thenation.com/blog/154077/center-cannot-hold-why-mainstream-media-cant-stop-ground-zero-mosque-hysteria
September 2nd, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Ahmed – I was on the other side of that discussion, pretty vociferously as usual, and I didn’t get the scent of hysteria from either Rob or Dan that I read in the accusation above comparing Dan O – and presumably me, since I introduced the (provable) notion that Jung was something less than committed, courageous or particularly prescient in at least the first decade of his confrontation with Nazism – to a holocaust denier.
September 2nd, 2010 at 2:30 pm
You know what Ahmed. I like your contributions around here for the most part–usually insightful and interesting at a minimum.
But on this one, you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t accept your opinion as fact. You can call Rob “awful” or say that Beman was “rightly admonished” but this doesn’t make these things true, it merely makes them your spin on them.
And I think you ought to be a little more mindful of the charges you make in this instance. I didn’t say one single word about Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I also didn’t say one single word about Berman’s stance on the war. I confined myself specifically to the contents of Flight, and I took into account the blog you linked to–the man who suggested that Berman was picking on the wrong figure.
For the record, I don’t think banning minarets is right, in fact it’s god damned disgraceful. So you might want to get out your measuring spoon instead of that giant backhoe you’re currently using.
As for a connection between discourse on the Enlightenment and the fucktards opposing Park 51, well, it might be wise to move to a thicker branch. The one you’re on can’t bear the weight of that particular fancy.
Lastly, you ever see me have an Anna-style meltdown like the one just before your post? Probably not because I try not to just call people names, and I think there is value in actually engaging in a debate about ideas, so I make an honest effort to engage. You’re not going to pin that one on me I don’t think.
September 2nd, 2010 at 2:40 pm
Now, in contravention of what I just wrote. Anna, fuck off. No, sorry, fuck off twice. Don’t shoot cheap fucked up gambits like holocaust denier at me.
You read the book yet? Know anything about what’s in it? It’s a good book, and the case against your man is not a pretty one. You came in here and did precisely what I said you would, which is just start howling. Are you OK?
Your adulation is blinding you to Mr. Jung’s failings on this score. Too bad, you might have learned something, but sadly your brain has ossified into the opinions you formed thirty years ago, and nary a single fact will ever penetrate that carapace if it doesn’t already fit. You’re a walking monument to hobgoblins and small minds.
September 2nd, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Sorry, as this is all from a different thread several days ago, but one last point. Anna says, “Go to the source, asshole”
Um, the chapter on Jung is full of quotes from …. wait for it … Jung. What other source are you hoping I go to?
September 2nd, 2010 at 3:04 pm
I admit that my riposte was more than a little snarky although not totally unwarranted. If I remember correctly, Rob G stormed out the gate accusing those whom mapped out, in detail, their disagreement with Berman of being morally devoid “multiculturalist” or something of the sort. He piped down as the discussion progressed. This language of shouting “treason!” and “betrayal” in relation to any debate about “Islam” is shared by the neoeft and neocons. Its absolutely fueled the ground zero mosque hysteria. That said my opinions of Anna has already been stated and they’re not charitable
September 2nd, 2010 at 10:46 pm
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September 3rd, 2010 at 12:26 am
Excuse me Ahmed, but I never supported the invasion of Iraq. I had a lot of criticism of the peace movement, that’s for sure. But please show me where I supported the war? Back during the run-up to the war, I was at the debate between Hitchen and Ignatieff on one side and Mark Danner and Bob Scheer on the other. Here is what I wrote at the time. No doubt is more nuanced than you would prefer but I stand by every word. I clearly opposed the war and said if, indeed, Bush goes ahead anyway may it be short and clean.
http://www.laweekly.com/2003-03-27/news/march-madness/
You say the host of this site should be open to criticism? Agreed.
Now, do you think that Mssrs. Cockburn and Cockburn should be immune? I don’t think so. I therefore continue to exercise my prerogative to not read their site. Is that OK with you?
Unlike you, I actually know the Cockburn brothers (much better than I would like to) and I disapprove of them as human beings, in spite of any of their political positions. Is that OK too? Or do I have to like thoroughly grungy folks because (in your opinion or even in mine) they have good political positions?
So when the two drunken Cockburns tried to sneak up on me and physically deck me and were in great measure stared down by my then-teenage daughter, I should have instead just let Patrick punch me from behind and let a sodden Alex sucker punch me then congratulate them on not only their physical courage but also on their great political minds? Sorry, but I use a broader criteria than stated public political positions to judge people (paging John Edwards).
Please.
By the way, as a human being, Hitchens is ten times the person than the entire Cockburn clan is put together. Even if he is politically wrong on some issues. None of us are perfect, habibi.
September 3rd, 2010 at 9:06 am
“Excuse me Ahmed, but I never supported the invasion of Iraq. I had a lot of criticism of the peace movement, that’s for sure. But please show me where I supported the war?”
I never said anything of the sort. What are you responding too? Your rant is particularly bizarre since I was in the midst of defending you against the noxious 4th time.
September 3rd, 2010 at 9:10 am
“By the way, as a human being, Hitchens is ten times the person than the entire Cockburn clan is put together.”
Maybe. Interestingly enough Hitch himself doesn’t seem to agree. He writes quite positively about the “clan” in the autobiography even mentioning that his old chum and journalist per excellence Andrew Cockburn (and Leslie) were among the few people to be invited to Hitch’s citizenship ceremony conducted, at the time, by his new friend Michael Chertoff….
September 3rd, 2010 at 9:14 am
ps All I did to provoke your outburst was simply mention that Patrick has for years been one of the more authoritative voices on post war Iraq. Interestingly and oddly enough, the rabidly pro war Hitch still regularly writes blurbs for Patrick’s books.
September 3rd, 2010 at 1:59 pm
That bit about inviting Andrew C to the citizenship ceremony, overseen by the quite creepy Michael Chertoff, was one of the more bizarre anecdotes in “Hitch22″ – and that’s saying a lot (since they also include getting a bit of a spanking by Margaret Thatcher and being sort of turned on by it.) I am totally convinced that he is more often than not “of two minds” as he riffs throughout the memoir. That said, it’s a great entertainment and a wonderful window into one very quirky but generally amiable – if sharp-tongued – character’s ride through the 60s and beyond…
September 3rd, 2010 at 4:01 pm
“That said, it’s a great entertainment and a wonderful window into one very quirky but generally amiable – if sharp-tongued – character’s ride through the 60s and beyond…”
As evidence for what reg says, I read Hitch-22 in about two sittings. Fascinating intellectual and personal journey, and wonderful writing.
September 3rd, 2010 at 4:30 pm
Hitchens ongoing post “war on terror” praise for Patrick C (deserved, IMHO) makes me mention of the man appear tepid and lukewarm in comparison
“No serious student of Iraq has failed to incur a debt to the intrepid and intelligent Patrick Cockburn.”
— Christopher Hitchens (on “Muqtada: Muqtada al-Sadr, the Shia Revival, and the Struggle for Iraq”
“Of the raft of books about the calamitous mismanagement of the intervention in Iraq, Patrick Cockburn’s little volume The Occupation: War and Resistance in Iraq is probably the most readable and certainly the only one that—even if only in the driest possible way—manages to be amusing. Cockburn has been covering Iraq for three decades, knows most of the players, provided several exposés of the Saddam regime, and displays exemplary courage in continuing to travel the country despite his polio (the subject of another excellent book of his in the shape of a memoir: The Broken Boy).”
This raises a series of interesting questions. The Cockburn’s are widely known as a notoriously tight knit clan. How is it that Hitch chums around with Patrick and Andrew while Alexander furiously calls Hitch “a sack of shit”; accuses Hitch of betraying their mutual pal Edward Said while the author of “Oriental-ism” was on his death bed; and in an all time low (even for a no holds barred contrarian such as Alex) baits C Hitch with homophobic slurs? Questions.
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