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	<title>Comments on: What Now?</title>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Despite blogs, three-fifths of Americans favor &#8220;amnesty&#8221; &#171; Media SITREP</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-494114</link>
		<dc:creator>Despite blogs, three-fifths of Americans favor &#8220;amnesty&#8221; &#171; Media SITREP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-494114</guid>
		<description>[...] thanks to Radio Open Source&#8217;s show on the bill&#8217;s defeat, seems to be an exception. Marc Cooper, of course, has also been writing about immigration for, well, decades. How much difference the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] thanks to Radio Open Source&#8217;s show on the bill&#8217;s defeat, seems to be an exception. Marc Cooper, of course, has also been writing about immigration for, well, decades. How much difference the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: UpTheante</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-491376</link>
		<dc:creator>UpTheante</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 05:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-491376</guid>
		<description>"Illegals have no right to be here".
Therefore they cannot be forgiven?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Illegals have no right to be here&#8221;.<br />
Therefore they cannot be forgiven?</p>
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		<title>By: jcummings</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490718</link>
		<dc:creator>jcummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 16:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490718</guid>
		<description>Richard Rorty RIP
I guess some things aren't relative</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Rorty RIP<br />
I guess some things aren&#8217;t relative</p>
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		<title>By: jcummings</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490618</link>
		<dc:creator>jcummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490618</guid>
		<description>I'm taliking specifically about Nepal in/re Monthly Review....words by Prachanda (head of Maoists) etc. - you weren't machine gunned - I was just offended by the ideas espoused there.

I'm for globalization of soldiarity which will stop capitalism - a project that can't be done "in one country" - not to create guest workers and hollow out Zambia...I'm not a Jeffrey Sachs fan but his heart's in the right place and he has a goodl ine there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m taliking specifically about Nepal in/re Monthly Review&#8230;.words by Prachanda (head of Maoists) etc. - you weren&#8217;t machine gunned - I was just offended by the ideas espoused there.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m for globalization of soldiarity which will stop capitalism - a project that can&#8217;t be done &#8220;in one country&#8221; - not to create guest workers and hollow out Zambia&#8230;I&#8217;m not a Jeffrey Sachs fan but his heart&#8217;s in the right place and he has a goodl ine there.</p>
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		<title>By: listener_on_the_sidelines</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490607</link>
		<dc:creator>listener_on_the_sidelines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490607</guid>
		<description>I believe I've been machine-gunned.  Yikes!  Okay.  Thanks for the clarification jc.  Your notion of 'globalization' is a bit different than I attributed to you.  Clarity is good.  Understanding, even better.  I wasn't all that comfortable with Pritchett's premise for reasons I hadn't fully thought out.  So, will go search for the discussion in the Monthly Review.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe I&#8217;ve been machine-gunned.  Yikes!  Okay.  Thanks for the clarification jc.  Your notion of &#8216;globalization&#8217; is a bit different than I attributed to you.  Clarity is good.  Understanding, even better.  I wasn&#8217;t all that comfortable with Pritchett&#8217;s premise for reasons I hadn&#8217;t fully thought out.  So, will go search for the discussion in the Monthly Review.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: jcummings</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490587</link>
		<dc:creator>jcummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490587</guid>
		<description>Finally, its like what they said in the South before the civil war, without totla dishoensty - that slaves were better off as slaves than in Africa, materially.  This isn't the point.  I'm for undrestricted labor mobility, but this type of program is utterly disgusting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finally, its like what they said in the South before the civil war, without totla dishoensty - that slaves were better off as slaves than in Africa, materially.  This isn&#8217;t the point.  I&#8217;m for undrestricted labor mobility, but this type of program is utterly disgusting.</p>
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		<title>By: jcummings</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490581</link>
		<dc:creator>jcummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490581</guid>
		<description>I've never seen so many factual errors - utter bullshit - in one article.  "poverty in India and China" is still a huge issue...the urban bourgeoisie in both countries that these governments like to show us is but a tiny fraction of the population.  Every year hundred of Indian farmers undercut by exports kill themsleves.  microcredits are a racket.  Lawrence Summers is a thug.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never seen so many factual errors - utter bullshit - in one article.  &#8220;poverty in India and China&#8221; is still a huge issue&#8230;the urban bourgeoisie in both countries that these governments like to show us is but a tiny fraction of the population.  Every year hundred of Indian farmers undercut by exports kill themsleves.  microcredits are a racket.  Lawrence Summers is a thug.</p>
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		<title>By: jcummings</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490580</link>
		<dc:creator>jcummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490580</guid>
		<description>I have always meant globalizing labor standards, not legislating third world guest worker programs.  Look at how well Third Worlders are doing in Lebanon (sarcasm - there is like one Sri Lankan maid a week getting killed, etc.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have always meant globalizing labor standards, not legislating third world guest worker programs.  Look at how well Third Worlders are doing in Lebanon (sarcasm - there is like one Sri Lankan maid a week getting killed, etc.)</p>
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		<title>By: jcummings</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490579</link>
		<dc:creator>jcummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490579</guid>
		<description>That article, frankly, is offensive, as the writer predicted.  It is not neither left or right, its state department philanthropic bullshit, out of fear of radicals who call themselves Maoists, but may well improve the situation in Nepal.  Whatever may be said, I suggest seeing the coverage of the issue in Montly Review, then judge it against the Times and make your own learned judgement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That article, frankly, is offensive, as the writer predicted.  It is not neither left or right, its state department philanthropic bullshit, out of fear of radicals who call themselves Maoists, but may well improve the situation in Nepal.  Whatever may be said, I suggest seeing the coverage of the issue in Montly Review, then judge it against the Times and make your own learned judgement.</p>
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		<title>By: listener_on_the_sidelines</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490474</link>
		<dc:creator>listener_on_the_sidelines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-490474</guid>
		<description>jcummings:  I assume you've already seen this, or have read the original work... but just in case

NYTimes, "Should We Globalize Labor Too?" by JasonDeParle, highlighting the premise of Lant Pritchett [ http://tinyurl.com/yq7673 ].  As best I can tell, it's not behind a paywall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jcummings:  I assume you&#8217;ve already seen this, or have read the original work&#8230; but just in case</p>
<p>NYTimes, &#8220;Should We Globalize Labor Too?&#8221; by JasonDeParle, highlighting the premise of Lant Pritchett [ <a href="http://tinyurl.com/yq7673" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/yq7673</a> ].  As best I can tell, it&#8217;s not behind a paywall.</p>
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		<title>By: listener_on_the_sidelines</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489748</link>
		<dc:creator>listener_on_the_sidelines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489748</guid>
		<description>Oh, I dunno, GOM.  In the desert a camel can be a darned useful traveling companion. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I dunno, GOM.  In the desert a camel can be a darned useful traveling companion. <img src='http://marccooper.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: listener_on_the_sidelines</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489733</link>
		<dc:creator>listener_on_the_sidelines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489733</guid>
		<description>You're right.  Where is preview?  

And, *in* (not it) a city like Detroit...

... Mrs. Thibodeaux can *tell* (not ell) by looking.

Sheesh!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right.  Where is preview?  </p>
<p>And, *in* (not it) a city like Detroit&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230; Mrs. Thibodeaux can *tell* (not ell) by looking.</p>
<p>Sheesh!</p>
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		<title>By: listener_on_the_sidelines</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489729</link>
		<dc:creator>listener_on_the_sidelines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489729</guid>
		<description>Oops!  Mouse key spasm....

I donâ€™t dismiss what I believe to one of the largest core complaints: â€œHer strong feelings about the immigration issue came gradually, she said. A nephew who works as a house painter had trouble finding high-paying work because of competition from illegal immigrants."  And, it a city like Detroit, well paying jobs in the face of diminished auto manufacturing is a very big deal.  But that problem began with corporations, not with the immigrants - whatever their status.

And, no doubt stuff like, "Some Mexican teenagers hassled her on the street, seeming to mock her because she walks with a cane. She spotted immigrants shopping with food stamps at the grocery store." only adds fuel to the fire.

But without any genuine or secure means of confirming eligibility status, what are agencies like social services and employers in general supposed to do when the other arm of the sissors is a discrimination lawsuit.  I don't dismiss those either; I've seem them.  Of course maybe Mrs. Thibodeaux can ell by looking.  I sure as the hell can't.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops!  Mouse key spasm&#8230;.</p>
<p>I donâ€™t dismiss what I believe to one of the largest core complaints: â€œHer strong feelings about the immigration issue came gradually, she said. A nephew who works as a house painter had trouble finding high-paying work because of competition from illegal immigrants.&#8221;  And, it a city like Detroit, well paying jobs in the face of diminished auto manufacturing is a very big deal.  But that problem began with corporations, not with the immigrants - whatever their status.</p>
<p>And, no doubt stuff like, &#8220;Some Mexican teenagers hassled her on the street, seeming to mock her because she walks with a cane. She spotted immigrants shopping with food stamps at the grocery store.&#8221; only adds fuel to the fire.</p>
<p>But without any genuine or secure means of confirming eligibility status, what are agencies like social services and employers in general supposed to do when the other arm of the sissors is a discrimination lawsuit.  I don&#8217;t dismiss those either; I&#8217;ve seem them.  Of course maybe Mrs. Thibodeaux can ell by looking.  I sure as the hell can&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: listener_on_the_sidelines</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489717</link>
		<dc:creator>listener_on_the_sidelines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489717</guid>
		<description>So, what do you propose GM?  This:  "Mrs. Thibodeaux said ...â€œI have a very hard time with illegal,â€ she said. She proposes that all illegal immigrants be given a 90-day period to leave voluntarily. After that, immigration agents, local police and the National Guard, if necessary, should be mobilized to deport them" ..."  [NYTimes; Grass Roots Roared and Immigration Plan Collapsed http://tinyurl.com/2lnbqv]

I don't dismiss what I believe to one of the largest core complaints: "</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, what do you propose GM?  This:  &#8220;Mrs. Thibodeaux said &#8230;â€œI have a very hard time with illegal,â€ she said. She proposes that all illegal immigrants be given a 90-day period to leave voluntarily. After that, immigration agents, local police and the National Guard, if necessary, should be mobilized to deport them&#8221; &#8230;&#8221;  [NYTimes; Grass Roots Roared and Immigration Plan Collapsed <a href="http://tinyurl.com/2lnbqv" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/2lnbqv</a></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t dismiss what I believe to one of the largest core complaints: &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: GM Roper</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489547</link>
		<dc:creator>GM Roper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489547</guid>
		<description>Next to the last line should have the word here, not hear. What ever happened to preview?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Next to the last line should have the word here, not hear. What ever happened to preview?</p>
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		<title>By: GM Roper</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489541</link>
		<dc:creator>GM Roper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489541</guid>
		<description>I'm surprised (as perhaps were other) that Marc, who touts polls left and right doesn't mention that the most recent &lt;a href="http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/just_26_favor_senate_immigration_plan" rel="nofollow"&gt;Rasmussen Poll&lt;/a&gt; indicates that a majority of Americans (presumably legal ones) do not indeed support "the Bush backed plan to grant legal status" to the illegals rather, a whopping 74% oppose this bill, many on just those grounds (and this includes Democrats, Republicans, independents and not a few legal immigrants from Mexico and other hispanic countries.).  

You can call them undocumented workers, illegal aliens, illegal immigrants, or as the sublimely stupid Harry Reid said "undocumented Americans," but the fact of the matter is that the majority of them are hear because of the &lt;b&gt;last&lt;/b&gt; "flawed bill."  A flawed bill is not "better than nothing," a flawed bill is bad law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised (as perhaps were other) that Marc, who touts polls left and right doesn&#8217;t mention that the most recent <a href="http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/just_26_favor_senate_immigration_plan" rel="nofollow">Rasmussen Poll</a> indicates that a majority of Americans (presumably legal ones) do not indeed support &#8220;the Bush backed plan to grant legal status&#8221; to the illegals rather, a whopping 74% oppose this bill, many on just those grounds (and this includes Democrats, Republicans, independents and not a few legal immigrants from Mexico and other hispanic countries.).  </p>
<p>You can call them undocumented workers, illegal aliens, illegal immigrants, or as the sublimely stupid Harry Reid said &#8220;undocumented Americans,&#8221; but the fact of the matter is that the majority of them are hear because of the <b>last</b> &#8220;flawed bill.&#8221;  A flawed bill is not &#8220;better than nothing,&#8221; a flawed bill is bad law.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Turner</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489385</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 20:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489385</guid>
		<description>Woody writes: "Iâ€™m not taking a position so much on immigration as I am on enforcing existing laws."

I have a lot of sympathy with that view, but law is not an immutable thing.  If a law isn't working, and basically can't work, it should change, if it's politically possible.

"It truly is a matter of principle rather than politics."

If the principle you invoke is "the rule of law", OK.  But see above.  And also accept that opposition to immigration reform, or acceptance of more draconian immigration reform, is often motivated by other, less-desireable, principles as well.

I admit hypocrisy: I've been an "illegal alien" here in Japan, and as my business has prospered, I've even hired one from time to time.  Japan has its own style of "looking the other way" that helped make both situations possible for me.

How do I rationalize it?  Over and above the Rule of Law, I see another principle: human flourishing depends on the right to seek opportunity, so long as it doesn't harm others. Individual flourishing is the best hedge against the War of All Against All.  True, anything that degrades respect for the rule of law hurts us all to some extent, in ways for which there is no accurate accounting.  But costs must be balanced against benefits, even where the computation is necessarily approximate.  In this, call me an optimist: where the principle of liberty to seek non-harmful opportunities conflicts with the rule of law, the world generally gets better for flouting law.  I can't give you an accurate accounting to support that optimistic assumption; nor can anyone else, I think.  But I know that my life is better because of the willingness of some people to let me break the law in the way I did when I was "illegal," and I also know that I've improved the lives of others when I myself hosted "illegals".  (I hate arguments from anecdotal evidence, but it's all I have here.)

With the failure of this particular (admittedly flawed) bill, I guess I'm with Grumpy Old Man and listener on the sidelines: paralysis of government and maintenance of the status quo may, after all, be the best of all possible worlds just now.   It's too bad, but life goes on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Woody writes: &#8220;Iâ€™m not taking a position so much on immigration as I am on enforcing existing laws.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have a lot of sympathy with that view, but law is not an immutable thing.  If a law isn&#8217;t working, and basically can&#8217;t work, it should change, if it&#8217;s politically possible.</p>
<p>&#8220;It truly is a matter of principle rather than politics.&#8221;</p>
<p>If the principle you invoke is &#8220;the rule of law&#8221;, OK.  But see above.  And also accept that opposition to immigration reform, or acceptance of more draconian immigration reform, is often motivated by other, less-desireable, principles as well.</p>
<p>I admit hypocrisy: I&#8217;ve been an &#8220;illegal alien&#8221; here in Japan, and as my business has prospered, I&#8217;ve even hired one from time to time.  Japan has its own style of &#8220;looking the other way&#8221; that helped make both situations possible for me.</p>
<p>How do I rationalize it?  Over and above the Rule of Law, I see another principle: human flourishing depends on the right to seek opportunity, so long as it doesn&#8217;t harm others. Individual flourishing is the best hedge against the War of All Against All.  True, anything that degrades respect for the rule of law hurts us all to some extent, in ways for which there is no accurate accounting.  But costs must be balanced against benefits, even where the computation is necessarily approximate.  In this, call me an optimist: where the principle of liberty to seek non-harmful opportunities conflicts with the rule of law, the world generally gets better for flouting law.  I can&#8217;t give you an accurate accounting to support that optimistic assumption; nor can anyone else, I think.  But I know that my life is better because of the willingness of some people to let me break the law in the way I did when I was &#8220;illegal,&#8221; and I also know that I&#8217;ve improved the lives of others when I myself hosted &#8220;illegals&#8221;.  (I hate arguments from anecdotal evidence, but it&#8217;s all I have here.)</p>
<p>With the failure of this particular (admittedly flawed) bill, I guess I&#8217;m with Grumpy Old Man and listener on the sidelines: paralysis of government and maintenance of the status quo may, after all, be the best of all possible worlds just now.   It&#8217;s too bad, but life goes on.</p>
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		<title>By: Woody</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489317</link>
		<dc:creator>Woody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 19:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489317</guid>
		<description>Libby was screwed by a prosecutor who couldn't come up with an indictment on the charge he was appointed to investigate, so he kept asking questions until he could find someone who remembered as badly as Sandy Berger.

Go to Celeste Fremon's site for an outrage other than this or Paris Hilton.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Libby was screwed by a prosecutor who couldn&#8217;t come up with an indictment on the charge he was appointed to investigate, so he kept asking questions until he could find someone who remembered as badly as Sandy Berger.</p>
<p>Go to Celeste Fremon&#8217;s site for an outrage other than this or Paris Hilton.</p>
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		<title>By: jcummings</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489172</link>
		<dc:creator>jcummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:09:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489172</guid>
		<description>I think the schadenfreude about Libby is disturbing.  He was a bit player, taking one for the team.  He's being jailed not for helping plan war crimes, but for his role in exposing someone who was furthering American Imperial interests, however personally coarse his actions happened to be.

I'll be happy when I see people getting jailed for war crimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the schadenfreude about Libby is disturbing.  He was a bit player, taking one for the team.  He&#8217;s being jailed not for helping plan war crimes, but for his role in exposing someone who was furthering American Imperial interests, however personally coarse his actions happened to be.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll be happy when I see people getting jailed for war crimes.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Balter</title>
		<link>http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489147</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Balter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 16:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marccooper.com/what-now/#comment-489147</guid>
		<description>So Woody, what about that buzz about a pardon for Libby? You must be quite outraged at the very idea, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Woody, what about that buzz about a pardon for Libby? You must be quite outraged at the very idea, right?</p>
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