Out in the Real World working. See you in a day or two.
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August 16th, 2007 at 7:09 am
Hope you catch some big fish.
August 16th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
I was sure we’d get a Chavez post. Soon enough, I imagine. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-chavez16aug16,0,5377750.story?coll=la-home-world
August 16th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Mavis don’t give anyone here any ideas. Actually where I Am its too damn hot to rehash Hugo once more. Besides, is there anything new to say about him on either side?
August 16th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
Mavis,
I’m way ahead of you: http://tinyurl.com/35sy2f
Short and sweet as well.
August 16th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
I am not too fond of that move, but its being reported in a way that doesn’t acknowledge that in most countreis- Canada for example, there are no term limits, and also that Uribe just pulled a far more drastic move.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:30 am
I’m actually curious what the Chavistas are saying about this one. This move seems so much more blatantly contemptuous of democracy than most of Chavez’s other controversial moves. And jcummings, it’s not just the extended term limits (though that’s bad enough) but also the moves to consolodate federal power at the expense of mayors and governers. It reminds me to give thanks that our institutions are strong enough that Bush can’t seize the power he’d like. Randy’s post is short, but it’s 100% right.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:53 am
I’m not gonnna get into specifics. Many countries do similar moves. the mayors and governors are working for the interests of a foreign power. the people are behind him. Consolidation of power is highly different in a revolutioanry society. Read state and revolution.
i have nothing more to say.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:54 am
What is your model of democracy? America? Chavez is highly popular and involves citizens - those who are inerested - involvement in the political process. I can’t think of a more democratic figure in Venezuelan history.
Making comments like you make serve the interests of the US State Dept that is still trying to destabilize Chavez, includign with governors and mayors.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:57 am
One last thing…for whatever problems people have with Chavez, why do you all prefer a Pro-US lackey? The logic of your remarks, given the balance of forces in Ven. is that you’d prefer a nice clean term limited Venezuelan hack who would return power to the oligarcy. There is a stark choice, and you are objectively siding with the reactionary coup-mongering opposition.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:58 am
No more drastic than FDR.
Last post on the subject.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:07 am
See Mavis, I told you so!
August 17th, 2007 at 9:15 am
It’d be a little bit more interesting a debate/discussion if people responded to the points I made, as opposed to pointed out how I respond far less verbosely than some folks to criticism of Democrats.
To wit, every single person, nearly, in that article, is one way shape or form a functionary of US interests. If someone wants to defend a Fujimori type in power in Venezuela, by my guest.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:19 am
“The president also wants to confer legal status on about 25,000 “communal councils” that he has formed in conjunction with worker cooperatives to own and operate thousands of state-owned assets, including steel plants, toll roads, foreclosed hotels and confiscated farms. The councils and cooperatives are the nuclei of the socialist society that Chavez envisions.”
How undemocratic!!! Councils that directly represent the citizens. My god, its Rousseau over Lockle. Can’t have that!
August 17th, 2007 at 10:19 am
One last thing…for whatever problems people have with Chavez, why do you all prefer a Pro-US lackey?
Please provide us with proof that any of us have ever made such a comment. Actual proof for a change, not suppositions, not your spin, not your usual bombast. Facts, for a change.
I have consistently declared a plague on both the opposition’s and the Chavista’s houses.
When you’re done with that, perhaps you can then address why the rule of one man is more important than building institutions that go beyond the rule of one man.
That, since you seem to be unable to grasp that was the thrust of my post.
August 17th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
I get the thrust of it, but a position of a pox on both sides is untenable in this situation. I’ve said this many times. Chavez has over 60 percent popularity. There are not other forces that are even close to any sort of power that would not re-enter the US orbit. So one can feel a certain way about this or that aspect of Chavez’s program, like I like this or that baseball team, but in terms of political thought, there is either Chavez or the State Department. There are no other forces with any power at all.
And you know quite well - itsw even featured in that hit-piece- that chavez is building parallel institutions along with the strengthened power of his office in order to let the old state wither away. These institutions, councils, etc. are far more deeply democratic than anything in the States.
So keep spouting State Dept. rhetoric or realize the facts of the situation.
August 17th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
“The president also wants to confer legal status on about 25,000 “communal councils†that he has formed in conjunction with worker cooperatives to own and operate thousands of state-owned assets, including steel plants, toll roads, foreclosed hotels and confiscated farms. The councils and cooperatives are the nuclei of the socialist society that Chavez envisions.â€
August 17th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
I wrote:
Please provide us with proof that any of us have ever made such a comment. Actual proof for a change, not suppositions, not your spin, not your usual bombast. Facts, for a change.
Asked and as usual, not answered. You’re incapable of responding factually so you just hrul brickbats. Just more ad hominem bullshit like this:
So keep spouting State Dept. rhetoric or realize the facts of the situation.
You’re an ass and a particularly witless one at that. The State Department is supporting the opposition. I haven’t been.
And you know quite well - itsw even featured in that hit-piece- that chavez is building parallel institutions along with the strengthened power of his office in order to let the old state wither away. These institutions, councils, etc. are far more deeply democratic than anything in the States.
Then he should trust in his institutions and let them take charge without his having to be elected in perpetuity.
So one can feel a certain way about this or that aspect of Chavez’s program, like I like this or that baseball team, but in terms of political thought, there is either Chavez or the State Department. There are no other forces with any power at all.
Oh bullshit. Don’t insult me simply because your imagination and ability to develop a creative solutions are barren.
Rhetorically this is no different than George Bush saying “You’re either with us or against us.” Congratulations on becoming the thing that you loathe the most
August 17th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
We’re at loggerheads, because, yes, quite literally this is a binary situation - and also one in which you are arguing against 60 percent of Venezuelans. The logic that I’m using here is that it is up to these Venezuelans. And the relationship of forces is such that having certain opinions that plague both houses is as about as politically relevant aswhether you like the Mets or the Yankees. (Actually less, since there has always been a class differential between fanbases but I digress)
There is nothing about “perpetuity” in Chavez’s plans - though I’ve stated that I don’t particularly like this aspect of it.
Can I ask though - what non-tainted or even Pro-Chavez sources have you read or engaged with? Wilpert? Leibowitz? If you are against the opposition, isn’t the best thing to do, since 60 percent of the population is Pro-Chavez, - is to contribute to the more democratic currents within Chavizmo? Isn’t it best to let Venezuelans decide?
The rhetoric of the State Department opposition ihas been increasingly faux-left and “two lefts”…just as I hear from you on the regular.
This is all with all due respect. Again, I understand your position, since you think that a utopian imaginary solution can be dreamed up. But as I said, there are only two games in Caracas.
August 17th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Many liberals say “why do you support what you dislike in Bush in (Chaveaz/Castro/name your boogieman)” I answer: Do you not apply different logic to different situations?
August 17th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
As long as we’re South of the Border can we note that its less than a month till a truly important date down there. I refer to the Original 9/11 and the coup in Chile.
August 17th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
. But as I said, there are only two games in Caracas.
That’s an opinion, not a fact. Indeed, this is why I don’t take you seriously.
and also one in which you are arguing against 60 percent of Venezuelans.
It used to be 82%. Numbers have been trending down.
You still owe me several answers.
August 17th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
I don’t owe you shit.
You don’t discuss anything I’ve said, and you imply that I owe you something since we have different opinions. But it seems to anyone who actually is aware of the situation in Venezuela that indeed, there are two games in Caracas, that the relationship of forces is Chavista or Gusano. If you can give me any reason that there is another force capable of having the support of over, say, 20 percent of the population, and a force that will retain the economic regorms made by Chavez, then I’ll ackowledge another game.
August 17th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
http://venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2389
August 18th, 2007 at 8:52 am
That kind of binary is really stupid, jc, especially coming from somebody who slams the Democrats pretty regularly. Since the only realistic alternative to Democratic rule is Republican rule, I guess we’re to assume you support the Republicans.
That link is on the pathetic side. Instead of the promised analysis we get a series of quotes from Chavez. Another article claiming to talk about oppostion to Chavez’s reforms only quotes oppostion leaders and not any democracy advocates or politically neutral parties that might find Chavez’s actions disturbing. An article that claims to be about opposition to Chavez’s sweeping reforms that can only find political opposition leaders who dissent? Bullshit. You can conclude that nobody like that exists, but I think the answer is that you’re sending us to a real rag.
I think the real answer here is that you don’t particularly care about democratic institutions or the “rules of the game” as long as your guy wins. You’re just like the Bushies that way.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:02 am
Binary?
I think we should clear up the cobwebs here and state our positions. I am in favor of what is going on in Venezuela. I don’t fetishize liberal democracy. IF you do, then fine.
I have repeatedly stated in my bashing of Democrats that I don’t want to see a Republican presidency. The critics of Chavez here have not taken a side in saying “I don’t like this this and that but I prefer Chavez to the fascist opposition.” That isn’t being said because all of you fear a different mode of political organization.
Venezuelanalysis is not an official site, but of course it is a partisan of the Bolivarian revolution. I sent the link to provide context and balance to the regularly AntiChavez information one finds in the US press. “Democracy aqdvocates” in Venezuela are funded by the NED. And as I said, the protagonistic council democracy is far preferable, as far as my thinking goes, than (no longer existing) liberal democracy.
You can refuse to engage with what Chavez is actualyl doing by calling out “tyrant” and “taking away term limits” and all that, but you aren’t stating your position on the movement towards some type of socialism. I can only assume that you are a typical redbaiter, and/or someone who fears what is different. As Zizek put it recently, we’ve come to a disturbing pass when much of the Left sees the end of the world (global warming, bird flu, etc) as more likely than some type of chang ein productive forces and economic exchange.
I know Venezuela pretty well, and there is not one sector - except for the Trots who are on Chavez’s left - who are critical of Chavez that don’t align themselves with Americans and the old order. And these people have shot themselves in the foot. Venezuela does need a responsible opposition, and this does not exist.
And as I said, I apply a wholely different logic to bourgeois countries like the United States than I do to Venezuela. Calling out “Bullshit” and “pathetic” just shows how much you fear socialism.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:03 am
There is no such thing as a neutral force.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:04 am
And yes, as I said in a long “in moderation” post…”I think we should clear up the cobwebs here and state our positions. I am in favor of what is going on in Venezuela. I don’t fetishize liberal democracy. IF you do, then fine….“Democracy aqdvocates†in Venezuela are funded by the NED. And as I said, the protagonistic council democracy is far preferable, as far as my thinking goes, than (no longer existing) liberal democracy…..Calling out “Bullshit†and “pathetic†just shows how much you fear socialism.”
August 18th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Calling out “Bullshit†and “pathetic†just shows how much you fear socialism. think we should clear up the cobwebs here and state our positions. I am in favor of what is going on in Venezuela. I don’t fetishize liberal democracy. Truly participatory, protagonistic democracy is coming into being, far more democratic than (no longer operative) liberal democracy.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:32 am
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=450
August 18th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Since my posts still seem to be in moderation I’ll briefly plead quite guilty, again, to applying a different set of logic to political “Friends” as I do “enemies.” And I don’t fetishize bourgeois democracy.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:37 am
Damn - check out Marc’s kid’s blog. ValleyGirlSmartMouth, or whatever it is. Now the multi-talented Ms. Cooper is directing Shakespeare. And designing posters (nice John Heartfieldesque job, I might add.)
Kudos. To the kid. And to dad (certainly for a large measure of the inspiration and also for administering the checkbook with some combination of wisdom and generosity.)
August 18th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
“Heartfieldesque”, eh? Guess her first words were “DaDa!”
August 18th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
I don’t owe you shit.
You owe everyone the common courtesy of not making up shit about their positions, such as this statement:
One last thing…for whatever problems people have with Chavez, why do you all prefer a Pro-US lackey?
That has all the intellectual rigor of “Have you stopped beating your wife?”
Of course that’s what I should expect from a dilettante such as yourself.