You owe everyone the common courtesy of not making up shit about their positions, such as this statement:

One last thing…for whatever problems people have with Chavez, why do you all prefer a Pro-US lackey?

That has all the intellectual rigor of “Have you stopped beating your wife?”

Of course that’s what I should expect from a dilettante such as yourself.

Kudos. To the kid. And to dad (certainly for a large measure of the inspiration and also for administering the checkbook with some combination of wisdom and generosity.)

I think we should clear up the cobwebs here and state our positions. I am in favor of what is going on in Venezuela. I don’t fetishize liberal democracy. IF you do, then fine.

I have repeatedly stated in my bashing of Democrats that I don’t want to see a Republican presidency. The critics of Chavez here have not taken a side in saying “I don’t like this this and that but I prefer Chavez to the fascist opposition.” That isn’t being said because all of you fear a different mode of political organization.

Venezuelanalysis is not an official site, but of course it is a partisan of the Bolivarian revolution. I sent the link to provide context and balance to the regularly AntiChavez information one finds in the US press. “Democracy aqdvocates” in Venezuela are funded by the NED. And as I said, the protagonistic council democracy is far preferable, as far as my thinking goes, than (no longer existing) liberal democracy.

You can refuse to engage with what Chavez is actualyl doing by calling out “tyrant” and “taking away term limits” and all that, but you aren’t stating your position on the movement towards some type of socialism. I can only assume that you are a typical redbaiter, and/or someone who fears what is different. As Zizek put it recently, we’ve come to a disturbing pass when much of the Left sees the end of the world (global warming, bird flu, etc) as more likely than some type of chang ein productive forces and economic exchange.

I know Venezuela pretty well, and there is not one sector - except for the Trots who are on Chavez’s left - who are critical of Chavez that don’t align themselves with Americans and the old order. And these people have shot themselves in the foot. Venezuela does need a responsible opposition, and this does not exist.

And as I said, I apply a wholely different logic to bourgeois countries like the United States than I do to Venezuela. Calling out “Bullshit” and “pathetic” just shows how much you fear socialism.

That link is on the pathetic side. Instead of the promised analysis we get a series of quotes from Chavez. Another article claiming to talk about oppostion to Chavez’s reforms only quotes oppostion leaders and not any democracy advocates or politically neutral parties that might find Chavez’s actions disturbing. An article that claims to be about opposition to Chavez’s sweeping reforms that can only find political opposition leaders who dissent? Bullshit. You can conclude that nobody like that exists, but I think the answer is that you’re sending us to a real rag.

I think the real answer here is that you don’t particularly care about democratic institutions or the “rules of the game” as long as your guy wins. You’re just like the Bushies that way.

You don’t discuss anything I’ve said, and you imply that I owe you something since we have different opinions. But it seems to anyone who actually is aware of the situation in Venezuela that indeed, there are two games in Caracas, that the relationship of forces is Chavista or Gusano. If you can give me any reason that there is another force capable of having the support of over, say, 20 percent of the population, and a force that will retain the economic regorms made by Chavez, then I’ll ackowledge another game.

That’s an opinion, not a fact. Indeed, this is why I don’t take you seriously.

and also one in which you are arguing against 60 percent of Venezuelans.

It used to be 82%. Numbers have been trending down.

You still owe me several answers.

There is nothing about “perpetuity” in Chavez’s plans - though I’ve stated that I don’t particularly like this aspect of it.

Can I ask though - what non-tainted or even Pro-Chavez sources have you read or engaged with? Wilpert? Leibowitz? If you are against the opposition, isn’t the best thing to do, since 60 percent of the population is Pro-Chavez, - is to contribute to the more democratic currents within Chavizmo? Isn’t it best to let Venezuelans decide?

The rhetoric of the State Department opposition ihas been increasingly faux-left and “two lefts”…just as I hear from you on the regular.

This is all with all due respect. Again, I understand your position, since you think that a utopian imaginary solution can be dreamed up. But as I said, there are only two games in Caracas.

Please provide us with proof that any of us have ever made such a comment. Actual proof for a change, not suppositions, not your spin, not your usual bombast. Facts, for a change.

Asked and as usual, not answered. You’re incapable of responding factually so you just hrul brickbats. Just more ad hominem bullshit like this:

So keep spouting State Dept. rhetoric or realize the facts of the situation.

You’re an ass and a particularly witless one at that. The State Department is supporting the opposition. I haven’t been.

And you know quite well - itsw even featured in that hit-piece- that chavez is building parallel institutions along with the strengthened power of his office in order to let the old state wither away. These institutions, councils, etc. are far more deeply democratic than anything in the States.

Then he should trust in his institutions and let them take charge without his having to be elected in perpetuity.

So one can feel a certain way about this or that aspect of Chavez’s program, like I like this or that baseball team, but in terms of political thought, there is either Chavez or the State Department. There are no other forces with any power at all.

Oh bullshit. Don’t insult me simply because your imagination and ability to develop a creative solutions are barren.

Rhetorically this is no different than George Bush saying “You’re either with us or against us.” Congratulations on becoming the thing that you loathe the most

And you know quite well - itsw even featured in that hit-piece- that chavez is building parallel institutions along with the strengthened power of his office in order to let the old state wither away. These institutions, councils, etc. are far more deeply democratic than anything in the States.

So keep spouting State Dept. rhetoric or realize the facts of the situation.

Please provide us with proof that any of us have ever made such a comment. Actual proof for a change, not suppositions, not your spin, not your usual bombast. Facts, for a change.

I have consistently declared a plague on both the opposition’s and the Chavista’s houses.

When you’re done with that, perhaps you can then address why the rule of one man is more important than building institutions that go beyond the rule of one man.

That, since you seem to be unable to grasp that was the thrust of my post.