Yawning Silence
*** Update Thurs. Morn.: The bill is now dead. And with it any glimmer of reform anytime in the near future.Â
I'm pretty well disgusted with the general silence, and lack of leadership, on the immigration issue by liberals and the liberal blogosphere. This side of the 'sphere has pretty much nothing to say about this issue, now coming to an ignominious and almost certain collapse. So much more fun to wank on about Fox News, Ann Coulter and pipe dreams of impeachment.
The racial and class skew of the 'sphere couldn't be more pronounced than on this shameful omission. The right-wing 'sphere is leading the counter-charge against reform]-- with virtually no cyber-resistance.
In the end, it's Republican demagouging over "amnesty" that will spell the ultimate death of reform -- and not just for now, but probably for another couple of decades. When a party begins to bleed popularity, like the Bush-wounded GOP, the voice and clout of its hard-core base becames greatly amplified. So on much-needed immigration reform we're getting our national policy made by Michael Reagan, Michelle Malkin, Hugh Hewitt and other talk-radio shouters and keyboard pounders who are successfully blackmailing and intimidating any Republican lawmaker who has dared to show any sign of rationality or practicality on the matter.
But other than Teddy Kennedy, what Democrat has really put him or herself forward for reform? Yes, many Dems pay lip service to the general notion but would rather watch Bush get a lickin' on this rather than take some real risks of their own to rationalize policy (look at the way Barbara Boxer is trying to thread the needle on the bill by demanding additional punitive measures). I just love the phony liberal complaint about how awful a proposed guest worker program would be. Well, Babs, we already have a guest worker program: it's called 12 million people working without legal protection or recognition. Anything, quite literally, would be an improvement over that.
The supposedly bold, edgy, confrontational "left" (i.e. liberal) blogosphere, meanwhile, finds itself outflanked by good old Senator Kennedy on this issue. Over the last 20 years, liberals pretty much refused to take ownership of the un-sexy and thorny immigration issue (no wonder leadership was ceded to Minutemen and AM radio xenophobes). They maintained a revolting, silent complicity when the Clinton Administration imposed draconian border crackdowns, ratcheting up crossing death tolls by five fold and simultaneously hobbling the right of defendants in immigration court.
Now we're told, be patient. Wait till 2009. Once we have a Democratic president and a Democratic congress things will be different. Then we can finally pass real reform. Last time we had Democrats running both branches, however, we got Operation Gatekeeper. Maybe it will be different next time aroud. But given prevailing liberal lassitude on the issue today, why would you think so?
P.S. My L.A. Weekly colleague Daniel Hernandez takes note of how some grass-roots Latino groups are trying to make a last-ditch plea that something is better than nothing.
June 27th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
I think my forehead was permanently branded with letters T G B Y H N by my head hitting the keyboard after looking at the theme of this post.
Maybe in the morning I can find the energy … or, the inspiration.
June 27th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Strange bedfellows, fer sure.
For: Marc, Chertoff and the Wall St. Journal.
Agin: Pat Buchanan, Bernie Sanders, and me.
June 27th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Yawning silence–huh? FYI, while you’ve been burrowing your nose in juvenile books on Hillary Clinton for the past few weeks, others have been cranking out loads of thought-provoking material on the tough immigration questions. You might want to head on over there for some fresh ideas to get caught up.
June 27th, 2007 at 11:40 pm
Marc, the reason for the leftward blogosphere silence is pretty obvious:
“Passage of the legislation would hand Bush a victory on one of the top domestic priorities of his second term.” (Bloomberg, 6/24)
That Bush is a strong supporter of the Kennedy bill, and is infuriating his conservative base over this, totally confounds their narrative. Bush is supposed to be an evil far right ideologue. Instead, in this one case at least he’s a pro-immigrant moderate taking what must be a principled stand, since it’s *hurting* him with the right. No matter that Kennedy is a lion of the liberal-left, saying anything in support of his bill would put lefty bloggers in Bush’s camp. They’d rather die than do that.
June 27th, 2007 at 11:46 pm
WJA: Instead, in this one case at least he’s a pro-immigrant moderate taking what must be a principled stand, since it’s *hurting* him with the right
Principled? This is doing exactly what capital wants. It so happens that capital and the elusive “right thing” happen to coincide here, btu there is nothing anonomolous about American politicians going against their base in the name of capital.
I’m not sure what Sanders’ basis of opposition is, but the Left is involved in this issue, from its left. I’d argue that perhaps its politically tactical, but the notion that a guest worker program is simply awful is not just a fake liberal complaint, it is a statement of fact. To explain why - especially with all of the draconian border mechanisms - this would be an improvement over the Status Quo confounds me. It seems what gorz would call a non reformist reform.
I’m for open borders and complete amnesty. I don’t see htis bill going far enough in that direction.
June 27th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
That said, many liberals are protectionists, having seen free trade neoliberalism as bad, but not willing to make the jump to some kind of socialism (which is inherently internationalist) they oppose immigration and support ideas like national sovereignty.
June 28th, 2007 at 1:48 am
“I just love the phony liberal complaint about how awful a proposed guest worker program would be. Well, Babs, we already have a guest worker program: it’s called 12 million people working without legal protection or recognition. Anything, quite literally, would be an improvement over that.”
Marc, thanks again for repeatedly pointing out what “liberal” and “left” opponents of immigration reform keep trying to sweep under the rug: Their position amounts to a total acceptance and surrender to the status quo, because despite right wing fantasies the 12 million are not going back. They will stay right there in the good ol USA despite all the bloviating on both left and right on this issue.
June 28th, 2007 at 3:14 am
So much for the conventional wisdom; “Americans want the politians to stop sniping and get something done!” It looks like Lindsey Graham may become the victim of the vicious constituancy he has served so well for so long. Let’s face it, they want him out because of his personal life anyway…
So sure, the fact that the far right bullies can use the media effectively to get their way is all the Dems fault. I know from all the hard hitting stuff I read about them in the alturnative press… what a joke.
June 28th, 2007 at 7:03 am
The “merits” of this very bad bit of legislation aside, the notion that the liberal blogosphere making more noise in favor of the bill would have any impact at all on the GOP legislators who are the center of gravity of opposition is about as credible as suggestions that Dick Lugar whining to his fearless leader is going to have an impact on the course of the war in Iraq. I also love seeing MB and Marc lined up behind Hillary, while the only independent leftie in the Senate refuses to front for the old-line, pro-business liberal “compromise” with Bush and McCain.
“saying anything in support of his bill would put lefty bloggers in Bush’s camp. They’d rather die than do that.” In fact, the liberal bloggers have overwhelmingly written in support of this bill. This “blame-liberal-bloggers” narrative for not being as obssessive on the issue as Michelle Malkin - or Marc - is baloney.
And the “race/class” line is unbelievably lame and dishonest. Actually the “race and class” skew of pro-immigration bill types is telling. Don’t flatter youself that working-class people of color are mostly in your camp on this Rube Goldberg immigration bill. There are deep race and class divisions on this. How about a bit of honesty on this issue and how it actually breaks down as regards class and ethnicity, rather than cheap and phony shots intended to obscure the race and class issues ?
June 28th, 2007 at 7:11 am
Yeah, Nardy - this is just a variant on Higher Broderism. The Liberal bloggers, who’ve overwhelmingly supported immigration reform, share the blame with the right bloggers, who’ve jumped the shark on the issue in the intensity of their outrage. Just who the hell the liberal bloggers are supposed to convince given the near-total support of the bill by mushy liberals is beyond me. Among the handful of principled “left” critics of the bill, I doubt that Bernie Sanders gives much more of a shit what Kos has to say on this issue than does Tom Tancredo.
June 28th, 2007 at 7:30 am
Jobs for Illegal Immigrants:
June 28th, 2007 at 7:46 am
“[W]e’re getting our national policy made by … Hugh Hewitt and other talk-radio shouters and keyboard pounders….”
I’m no conservative (nor am I a “progressive”; I characterize myself, poliitically, as a cynical pragmatist), but I think it’s unfair to refer to Hewitt as a “shouter” or a “pounder.” Though I disagree with a lot of what he has to say, I find that he says it with intelligence and — most of the time — a good measure of intellectual honesty. And he is willing to listen to, and consider, what people who disagree with him have to say.
June 28th, 2007 at 7:47 am
Flash! Unrelated, but timely.
The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals threw out the conspiracy charge against Tom Delay. Ronnie Earle curled up in corner sucking his thumb.
Back to immigration….
June 28th, 2007 at 7:56 am
I’m not sure it’s a yawning silence, Marc, as much as I think people’s attentions are spread so thin. There’s just more going on than a body can hang on to. Personally, I’m overwhelmed. Sooner or later folks have to default to the thing that’s most important to them. Of all the issues raining down on our heads (Gonzales, Cheney, ‘family jewels,’ Iraq, immigration, habeas corpus, torture, the early election kick-off, and the stuff of day-to-day living), the one that has my attention above all is Iran.
The immigration bill might or might not pass, for an array of reasons -either way- that defy easy categorization. McClatchy reporting this morning that the vote will be close. I’m not willing to call it dead, or alive. It’ll be over when it’s over, and I’ll live with it, as will the 12 million that are here without ‘official status,’ and the others that will surely follow them here.
Until such time as we seal our southern boundary, people taking a risk for better opportunities, in the face of the yawning chasm between an illegal immigrant’s life here, and the one they face in Mexico, is near certain. Line up all the penalties you want; on employers, on landlords, on the immigrants themselves. Issue a national ID. Give the feds all the biometric data you want, right down to your DNA prints. It won’t matter. This is a great big country. Our economic engine requires population growth to function. The feds cannot be everywhere at once.
Like the insurgents in Iraq, the immigrants will get smarter. The ‘technology’ to evade detection will pace the technology to detect. At this point our government can’t keep up with tax evaders. It’ll never keep up with illegal immigrants who come without a visa, any more than it will keep up with those who overstay their visa. There will be individual casualties - people who are unmasked on a fluke - but not often enough to raise the risk ratio higher than would be needed to keep folks from trying.
It is, as you have opined in the past, a force of nature. You might as well try to legislate against tornadoes, floods, and hurricanes. Our government cannot even deal effectively with the aftermath of those. I would argue that our government’s inability to deal with immigration was foreordained. Anymore, I’m lowering the bar for my legislators. If they can just keep us out of Iran, I’m willing to call it good.
June 28th, 2007 at 8:30 am
BobH is right.
I agree with Hewitt less often than I used to. He’s a bit of a party loyalist most of the time, but he’s a gentleman.
Marc, I’m fairly sure he’d invite you to appear on his show, and treat you politely to boot.
June 28th, 2007 at 8:55 am
A bad bill is now history. 14 votes short. Back to the drawing board, and hopefully with more honest debate this time around.
June 28th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Good.
June 28th, 2007 at 8:59 am
1) “general silence”. My computer doesn’t talk. Maybe yours does. See if there is a volume knob.
2) Republicans killed the bill the first time. There’s a Republican president. Why the hell is it up to the Democrats to do the president’s job? Maybe we more czars. One for every issue and topic.
3) The immigration issue doesn’t affect me since I cut my own lawn. Too much effort has already been expended. There are more pressing issues.
June 28th, 2007 at 9:02 am
So. Next topic?
June 28th, 2007 at 9:30 am
I love Marc getting so high and mighty when he’s riding his pet hobby horse which seems to be let us have open borders but is afraid to come right out and say it. Personally I think being concerned about the venom of the likes of an Ann Coulter and Michele Malking might just be, shall we say, a little responsible for that “impoverished” political climate our genial host loves to talk about. Maybe its just that Marc spent too much time fighting the Pacifica Wars (and lord knows someone had to do it!) to notice that maybe its the fact that we have wall to wall crazies (Savage, Boortz, Hewitt) providing the likes of Woody with his toxic talking points that explain the demise of this bill. Gee Marc, I’d bet that a 100% Dem congress would pass a bill - just supposing though, I forget that i’m in the tank for those phonies. And besides, Hillary is a bitch!
But let me suggest that you look at the “Progressive” blogs and tell me they haven’t discussed the Immigration Bill. Funny, but I know what Markos, Marcie Wheeler, Digby, John Aravosis, Jane Hamsher and others think of it and you know how? I’ve read their blogs! Now its true they don’t spend all their time whining about it. Some actually thing fairness in media is important. Some think that the DOJ scandals might be of interest to their readers and some spent time on Scooter Libby - I know its a fault of them I guess. What can I say?
And I also know that many of them didn’t think this was a very good bill. In fact a lot of them thought this was a crummy bill. And I agree. For one thing the CBO wrote a report saying that it leave 75% of the undocumented unaffected. Boxer opposed it because it would break up families. Several had problems with the “Guest Worker” program.
Here are my main complaints:
1. The Z visa. Very simple. All the head of Household has to do is go back to the country of origin and come back. Is he or shee guaranteed a return visa? No, they have to take their chances. Sounds reasonable to me. I’m sure they’ll line up for that one!
2. “Guest Worker” - sure the corporate elites want a reserve army to bust unions and keep wages down. Know what they have to show? That they can’t get an American worker to do the work at the wage. Say I’m a software Company. I’ll pay 12.50/hr for a software enigneer. You say US Software Engineers make 50 - 80 K? Too much, no bonus for me. I’ll hire a grad from India! Gee that sounds equitable. Wonder where I can get a columist and freelance reporter who will work for minimum wage?
Path to citizenship - call it anything you want. It is still an “Amnesty” proposal that rewards people who cut in line. Again, unless you want to join the Cato Institute and the WSJ in advocating open borders this is a nonstarter. Well, do ya?
I’ve discussed before the steps needed. I’ll summarize:
1. Enforce Employer laws baring the hiring of undocumented.
2. Realistic methods for dealing with the millions here illegally. Probably including an “Amnesty” for some but lets be honest and call it that.
3. GUest Workers - no, except in special cases like agriculture and then with a “Prevailing Wage” clause
4. Revisit NAFTA and CAFTA and work with the Local governments. Make it clear that aid is forthcoming but : A) there will be strings and B) there has to be real reform.
I’ll support something like that. Until then stop the posturing.
June 28th, 2007 at 10:16 am
Most liberals who support the bill support it tepidly while most conservatives who oppose it have shown vociferous opposition. Is this shameful of liberals? I don’t really think so. It’s not a great bill. It may be better than nothing (I’ve just recently come to that conclusion), but it’s not something I’m excited about. If liberals went crazy for such a muddled and mixed compromise bill in Iraq or trade policy we’d be hearing about their weak spines.
And if you want to get on the blogosphere for being outflanked by an old school liberal, you’ve got to use an old school liberal pundit, not one of the bill’s authors. Of course, Ted Kennedy is big on the bill. He wrote the thing.
June 28th, 2007 at 10:43 am
Give me more credit than that, rlc. I decide issues and make my own points without having to read others. Links are just provided because you guys frequently ask for “supporting authority,” and I’m not taking my time to type analysis in detail for you guys.
On immigration, I want two things:
(1) Honest and effective measures to protect our borders, and
(2) Honest and effective measures to fill job openings with legal residents.
Then, make it illegal to use the pharase “press 2 for Spanish.”
June 28th, 2007 at 10:48 am
Hey, you want to talk about a yawning silence?
Jena, Louisiania.
Remember that name and that town.
There’s a tree at the High School there that has been considered “White’s Only” - that is only Whites could sit under it. A group of black students asked the administration if they could sit there. “Sure”, said the principal, “We Don’t care”, so they did.
Next day three nooses appeared hanging from the tree - one for each of the black students. Get the message? (cue Billie Holliday) At a school function blacks and whites fought. The Parish DA warned black students “I can end your life with the stroke of a pen.”
Black kids were threatened at gunpoint at a convience store.
Another Melee broke out. Some blacks and whites were injured. The DA was true to his word and charged three black students (age 16-17) as adults for “Attempted Murder” and asked for 80 year sentences. An all-white jury has been empanelled.
Oh, and today the Supremes said that race couldn’t be used as a factor in desegregating schools by a (you guessed it!) 5-4 Decision but Roberts said this doesn’t mean we’ve altered Brown v. Board. Stephens and Breyer disagree.
And, of course, that “rapist”, Gen Wilson , is still serving time in Georgia.
Yeah Marc there’s a yawning silence in this country and its been going on for 300 years!
Oh, and I’m waiting for more smartass remarks from Woody our Confederate Stooge.
June 28th, 2007 at 10:52 am
“If liberals went crazy for such a muddled and mixed compromise bill in Iraq or trade policy we’d be hearing about their weak spines.” Duh. Hello. You hit the irony nail on the head in this particular venue, Mavis. And if the liberal blogosphere started trumpeting the virtues of such as a big win or even “the best we can get”, Marc and Michael Balter would be excoriating them for being in the Dem tank and willing to accept any crumb from their Masters’ table.
Frankly, as a rather vociferous opponent of big employers’ hiring illegal immigrants or of the libertarian “open borders” fetish, one of my biggest problems with this bill is that the alleged “amnesty” provision to bring illegals into the mainstream is so onerous and complicated that I don’t think it’s going to offer a citizenship path to the majority or even a very large minority.
At least for “illegal” families - and perhaps others who can show themselves to be well-established residents with no criminal history beyond their immigration status - I would waive any requirements for a citizenship track other than English skills, and provide funding for classes as part of any legislative package. (This isn’t because I’m an English Only Nazi, but to use the moment to as an incentive get folks on track for improved occupational and educational opportunities.) I’d also put special federal aid to schools that have a specified percentage of recent immigrants children. This money could be applied across the board to those schools English program - not just ESL, for reasons anyone who lives in a city like Oakland will immediately understand.)
The EZ-Amnesty tradeoff would be fast-tracking for other legal immigrants in line, out of fairness. And, based on reliable labor market research on the impact of immigration not just on “natives” but on recent immigrants competing at the bottom rung who are ironically hurt the most by illegal immigration economically, it would make sense to then enact a moratorium on legal immigration for a bit to compensate for the “bulge”.
Those are my “nativist”, “obstructionist” views. This current bill was in league with the Big Pharma prescription drug bill and No Child Left Behind educational reform for Beltway sausage-making that does more harm than good. The alleged “amnesty” or “earned citizenship” was a ridiculous proposition for most “illegals” and totally onerous and unacceptable to the most exploited folks at the bottom who are already barely able to make ends meet.
June 28th, 2007 at 11:25 am
rlc, I don’t mind the usual poking, but you are way off base to link me with racism, lynchings, and threats under the “Confederate” banner. I wouldn’t care so much, except that you have been informed of this on other occasions, but yet persist. When I give “smart ass” remarks, they will be based on respect for the law and higher principles.
June 28th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
ANN COULTER IS THE MALE LOVE-CHILD OF TONY SNOW’S FATHER AND LYNN CHENEY. NOTE THE ADAMS APPLE AND MARFAN SYNDROME FOREHEAD.
HE WAS NAMED ANN IN TRIBURE TO JOHNNY CASH’S BOY NAMED SUE. HE BECAME A WRITER AFTER HIS PORN CAREER FLOUNDERED.
All commentators should refer to Ann is “he” and a collection of her body hair can be seen in Atlantic City Matress fair.
June 28th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
Ric,
Georgia’s Attorney General Thurbert Baker, happens to be BLACK and also happens to be the one standing in the way of Wilson’s release.
Also, I’m surprised that you are so hot to defend a group of six black kids who according to witnesses knocked a white student unconscious and then kicked and kicked him. If these was reversed, they would have added HATE CRIME to the charge.
But hey, I liked your thoughts on Immigration.
June 28th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
The fact that there were nooses there certainly mitigates any actions that were provoked by said nooses, Pokey. I know of old-time unionists who beat hell out of scabs - do they deserve the same kind of treatment? I find it analogous.
RLC, Reg, libertarians are not the only ones calling for open borders. Zapatistas and the whole Mexican left think so too. The Left has been saying that the worker has no country for hundred of years. Shit, the nation state is only about two hundred years old…read Benedict Anderson etc. But I will say that I like your appraoch a hell of a lot better than the creation of a sub-altern class of guest workers, as a stop-gap of course on the way to the abolition of borders. The same people who criticize Latin American populists and ignored the US manipulating an election in Mexico that gave victory to a neocon that perpetuates this cycle of inequality that sends proles north should be the first to push for the Mexican Left which would create conditions that would prevent a suctioning of migrants north. I don’t see this happening.
I think along with RLC’s good ideas except #4 - the US is in no position to dictate policy to any country in any fashion. This is a program to be dealt with by international agencies. News that the World Bank and IMF may be getting a divorce may potentially be good.
June 28th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Zapatistas and the whole Mexican left think so too
Not true at all. Here’s AMLO a year ago:
Unless you don’t believe that AMLO is a leftist, then your statement is not true.
June 28th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Here’s the link to that: http://tinyurl.com/yrl6jx
June 28th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Make that “That statement is true only if you believe AMLO is not a leftist.”
June 28th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Solution to illegal immigration? Mexinol
I knew that you folks would appreciate this.
June 28th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Of course thats why AMLO “lost”. For the establishment there the current situation is ideal. The US provides both the saftey valve for displaced workers and a source of foreign hard currency “Imports” thru the remittances which are second only to oil revenues. And the elites grow rich on NAFTA. Remember those maquilladoras that were going to grow the jobs for displaced workers? Well those jobs went to China - cheaper wages you see.
Yes, Pokey I know the GA AG is Black. So is Clarence Thomas and he just voted to gut Brown v. Board. Can you say “Uncle Tom?”
Sorry Woody. When the South stops acting this way. When a bunch of yahoos stop getting elected on anti-evolution planks. When the Confederate Battle Flag ceases to be a rallying point, and when lynching threats are treated as terrorist incident and prosecuted as such then we’ll talk.
Until then the South remains the most benighted and backward part of the country and the shame of the nation. Sorry, but I’m not going to humor you anymore.
June 28th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
I think this ignorance of the South prevents the Left - not the Dems necesarily, but the broad left, including labor and social movements, does a lot of damage. Check out the Bagient book, Deer Hunting with Jesus, and also realize that Duke has more radical faculty than Harvard.
June 28th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
My point is precisely that AMLO would have implemented policies that prevent this migration. As it stands, the Mexican Left see attempts by Uncle Sam to control the border as bigoted and backwards.
June 28th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Cummings, North Carolina is considered one of the more “Progressive” Southern States but the folks down there saw no problem in electing Jesse Helms time and time again. See the clown in GA who believes Al Queda is in Venezuela taching Jihadists how to “Act and Talk like Mexicans” so they can sneak across our border.
I’m sure Bagient’s book is interesting. So was “What’s the matter with Kansas?” Yes, on just about every measure of social patholgy - murder rate, bankruptcy, health indices, poverty, divorce, out-of-wedlock births - the South leads. Furthermore the South is a net IMPORTER of Fed dollars.
You want to know why Bush is going in the tank? Besides Iraq the simple reason is that he, and his party have become nothing but a bunch of fundementalist southern religious rascist bigots determined to make the country look like that region - low tax and no services. And guess what? The rest of the country says “Basta!”
June 28th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
No different from the fire breating right wingers -Peter King from New York state, who are far more cynical.
Bagient is not at all that overrated Tom Frank book (which was shown to be empiricalyl unsound.) It is a personal story from someone of that backgroudn that puts this truly stunted culture in economic and social context. Right to work states and old style scots Irish ‘I dont need no hand out’ work ethics produce a right wing working class who know they’re being screwed and believe its OK, rich folks will be rich folks after all - its those professors that David Horowitz (from California) talks about that are a problem.
Blaming the South is looking at the symptom, not the cause.
June 28th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
AMLO did not call for open borders. He actually prefers that Mexico not have a diaspora.
While he opposes the wall as should most sensible people, he also understands that the current situation is not sustainable for both sides of the border.
June 28th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
rlc, you don’t know what you’re talking about when it come to the South. You humor me only by your ignorance, and I pity you for your own prejudice.
June 28th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
Here is a person who even now makes jokes about “Mexinol” and conssistantly shills for the more reactionary elemets of the GOP and accuses me of prejudice because I note that it seems whever one looks in the Old Confederacy one comes across examples of gross conduct.
Peter King in New York? Yeah he’s a nut. Also a rabid IRA supporter but I haven’t heard his views as the standard of the state party.
I’ve spent time south of the Mason-Dixon line and love the people and the places - particularly the Blue Ridge and Great Smokeys that I explored yuears ago while getting a paycheck from Uncler Sam. And I was moved by the struggle of those, largely white, people to overcome the grinding poverty and disease cause by “Black Lung” and the devestation that open pit mining did to that beautiful land. And I’m moved by John Edfwards descriptions of those mill towns and what it has meant to see all those jobs leave.
And then I think of Lindsay Graham, and Trent Lott and Paul overdale and all the other corporate shills down there and the political whores who have been playing the race card for a hundred plus years to stay in power. So why aren’t there unions there? Because the White power structure was worried of worker power and used the fact that the CIO and the industrial unions - unlike the AFL craft unions - were integrated and used the race card to drive a wedge. I think of Tom Watson the Populist who saw his dreams come acropper on the anvil of race. I think of George Wallace losing an election and vowing he’d never get “Outsegged” again.
The past you say? 1990 Jesse Helm vs Harvey Gant. Need more? Harold Ford in 2006. If he wasn’t acceptable as a moderate then I don’t know who is. Remember the ad with the white girl? A joke who was the Chatanooga mayor won because of that. Because he was white.
Sorry, I’ll keep my “predudices” for the time being. You’ll just have to do better.
June 28th, 2007 at 9:14 pm
Woody. Please “enlighten” us.
So now the bill is dead, predictably. While it certainly wasn’t a perfect bill either technically or humanely, it was a start, that could be left to be improved as it proceeded forward. It’s been interesting to see how xenophobes and bigots have been widely presented as “the American people” here. Poll after poll shows that a majority supported the essence of the bills goals. Yet, talk-radio and other populist cowards had you believe that the “majority” opposed them. The phones “rang off the hook”. Ok, in order to be so strenuously opposed to “amnesty” it probably takes a bigot. Since there’s no compassion. Bigots have no compassion for some, just loads of contempt.
There were rational arguments popping out once in a while from opponents of the bill, but on the whole it seemed the restrictionists and nativists ran the show, and “represented’ the American people.
Groups like NumbersUSA that are for mass deportations were it only politically and physically viable.
Extremists. You saw a red line streaking through a bunch of extremist organizations ranging from explicitly racist ones to the “innocently” restricitionistic. Why otherwise such an incredible anger at leaders trying to fix the immigration problem? The fact that many from “left” and “right” opposed is rather a sing that it was a bipartisan compromise rather than that it was a “bad” bill. Populists vigorously exploited this fact to “show” that the American people were against it, never mind they were against it for completely different reasons and that a compromise would never have been able to satisfy them all anyhow.
What’s next. Either a brutal & massive enforcement campaign that will be fodder for sadists, or an even bigger problem than now to solve down the road with no guarantee of the current bipartisanship. The parody won, the scapegoating has worked. In fact the “threat” by the illegals is now towards the middle class as well.
Not only the American social fabric, national state of health, the tax-payers, the working class, the environment, school quality, health-care quality, the English language, common values, individuals like Woody’s well-being, etc.
June 28th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Some perspective on often-deserved reviling of the South:
While there definitely are regional “tilts” - and some egregious, glaring issues like lower levels of economic development that are even today traceable to a feudal tyranny which persisted in the region through much of the 20th Century, disgracefully low spending on education and social services in places like Mississippi, and cynical pols like Gingrich who have greedily sucked up federal dollars for their districts while attacking the source of this largesse (Wallace’s heirs) - the truth is every region in the country is more or less split politically. If we look at modern Presidents, California gave us Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan while the South gave us Clinton, Carter and LBJ (contradictory figures to varying degrees but certainly more enlightened than these Golden State guys.)
Sure Texas spit up little Dubya, but his family was bona fide northeastern patrician, he’s an alum of Yale (!) & Harvard (!) and Georgie had to roust Ann Richards to gain any credibility. The “southern strategy” is in still key to the GOP’s remaining strength, but there are definitely cracks even in that bloc.
Historically, Northern populists like WJ Bryan weren’t much better on race than Tom Watson. Nor were many of the unions. And some of the richest American culture - literary, musical, even journalistic - originated in the South.
The Midwest, which gets lampooned almost as much as the south by coastal types, has consistently brought forth some of the most progressive pols in American history. And I’m no fan of ANY of the current Presidential contenders from the liberal havens of Massachusetts or New York. I’d tolerate Hillary, and don’t want to unfairly lump her together with the truly godawful Giuliani and Mitt, but I’d much prefer either of her Dem rivals - who hail from the Midwest and the South.
I guess my point is that regional generalizations - while often connected to real history, real cultural attitudes and real socio-economic trends - obscure at least as much as they shed light. I’m not immune to them, but they’re not my best analytical moments.
June 28th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Reg and I agree for a moment.
Speaking from the perspective of a non-American, I can say that when I was a Deadhead and travelled a cross America through hill and dale, I didn’t really feel that I was in much of a different place when I was in anywhere in the Northeast, and to a lesser extent (its a lot like Vancouver after all) the West Coast. Outside of there was fascinating and truly different.
I found the South LESS homogenized , in terms of choice of cuisine or lodging than the Northeast, friendlier to pot-smoking hippies than the Northeast, even to Jews with Black girlfriends like I was at the time. I suspect, as Baigent points out that these prejudices are often surface knee-jerk reactions, and their way of treating individuals is not just some Southern hospitality, but a true and unironic sincerity that is foreign to the postmodern yuppies.
The Midwest gives me similar feelings, but more homogenized. We Canadians are politically Anti-American but we know Americana better than Americans…The Band and Neil Young are as American as it gets.
June 28th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
i’m from the real South.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chili_pepper
And an immigrant.
and Cummnings, Canada, like Chile, is in America.
June 28th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
The Department of Defense has identified 3,561 American service members who have died since the start of the Iraq war. It confirmed the death of the following American yesterday:
WINDER, Nathan L., 32, Sgt. First Class, Army; Blanding, Utah; Second Battalion, First Special Forces Group.
June 29th, 2007 at 5:35 am
Here’s a map that fits many of your prejudicial perceptions of the South (and the rest of the country). You have to scroll down.
USA
Did you know that California is dominated by homos?
June 29th, 2007 at 8:26 am
I meant USA, not America. Thanks for the point. It is “our America”
June 29th, 2007 at 8:37 am
Yes. Arnold himself is a bottom, Woody. He likes being dominated.
June 29th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Check the stats on: Infant Mortality Rates
Poverty Rates
Divorce rates
Spousal Abuse
Out-of-Wedlock Births
educational achievement
And on and on and on. Notice a pattern? The states of the Old Confederacy show up here all the time. You bet we’ve gone bad here in CA since Prop 13 which has caused the state to, in the words of Peter Schrag of the BEE, begin to look more like Mississippi. That’s a real recommendation.
But is anyone surprised by any of this. Consider the comment of Woodrow on any social maatter. On any question of public policy and you see bigoted, ignorant, ranting. No compasion but jokes about turning people into petrol.
But suggest that his part of the country drags the rest of the nation down or suggest that the death of Jerry Falwell is not such a tragic loss to the commonwealth and we’re subject to the whining of a sensitive sould asking where our compassion is.
Sorry, I gave at the office!
June 29th, 2007 at 10:18 am
rlc, Alabama beats California on education. In football, they are pretty well matched.
What you don’t see is that comparing the South to other parts of the nation is like comparing an inner city to the suburbs. The socio-economic situation makes the difference.
Where I live, we’re miles ahead of most of the U.S. and are quite happy. We have about as many golf cart paths as highways.
But, for those who are in poverty, the rest of the country is just as responsible as any area, and this goes back over 135 years. The northern armies destroyed the infra-structures that the South needed to rebuild, but, unlike other conquered lands who received aid from us, the U.S. did nothing to help the South. Homes destroyed, farms burned, factories blown up, railroads ruined, and the best of its men dead or wounded…. It takes a long time and many generations to correct that. Where’s your compassion?
Last weekend, I was in Tuscaloosa, AL and we took a ride in the boat and remarked where the Union forces crossed the river on its way to burn down The University of Alabama with only one week left in the war. Of course, they looted the town, too. Justify that.
Oh, and don’t give me the slavery bit and the South deserved it. This was an economic war in which the populus states dictated tariffs and restrictions on the rural states. Discrimination continued against the South with actions such as “*Pittsburgh Plus.”
And, for your information, half of my family is from the north and half is from the south. I’m just an observer and recount history.
June 29th, 2007 at 11:25 am
I’m pretty much a centrist who skips around to different blogs to get a variety of viewpoints. This is my first visit to this one, and I’m appalled at the low-level, vitriolic discourse I’ve found. Things like,
“a bunch of fundementalist southern religious rascist bigots…” are astounding to me coming from folks who consider themselves “progressive.” On balance, I think the conservatives are a bit more civil and stick to the issues better, but that impression if quite anecdotal. On the immigration issue, the bottom line is between open borders and secure borders. Choose.
June 29th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Alabama actually has progressive economic policy, lauded by Gar Alperovitz in his book America beyond Capitalism.
June 29th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Fred D - “I think the conservtives are a bit more civil and stick to the issues better”
Woody Says:
June 28th, 2007 at 7:30 am
Jobs for Illegal Immigrants:
I…suggested that when we send the illegal aliens back home we could consider the idea of sending each illegal Mexican home with a small bag of nuclear waste. This way we could be disposing of two problems at once.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Alabama actually has progressive economic policy
Bullshit. Alabama has one of the most regressive tax policies in the US. Alabama is one of two states that has a sales tax on groceries, Mississippi being the other. They also have a sales tax on over-the-counter medicines. If you believe that is progressive, God help you.
What Alperovitz praised and rightly so was The Retirement Systems of Alabama, the state employee pension fund , managed by David Bronner. RSA has been a model for pension finds throughout the USA and I would gladly have Dr. Bronner manage my money.
June 29th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
“Cuba has 73,000 doctors, twice as many doctors per capita as the United States.â€
The AMA has artificially held down the number of doctors in the United States to drive up doctor’s compensation.
Isn’t anyone here old enough to remember that doctors used to make house calls?
For the SAME MEDICAL SERVICE costs many times more than it did 50 years ago in constant dollars.
What do you attribute this huge increase in costs?
- More Tests
- Higher wages for doctors
- More administrative staff
- High insurance
- Lots of uninsured
June 29th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
“The Midwest, which gets lampooned almost as much as the south by coastal types, has consistently brought forth some of the most progressive pols in American history.”
That’s right. Kansas used to be a hot bed for progressive populism…Our slogan around here used to be, “Let’s start raising less corn and more hell.”
June 29th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
And a little more recently, Bill Roy (D-KS) - a native of Illinois - was a congressman (1970-74) from Kansas’s reliably right leaning Topeka district who had high approval ratings, and yet one of the most progressive records of any congressman in that body for his time. He quit Congress to run for the US Senate, and lost to Bob Dole by just a hair.
Today he is a regular print and radio personality in the state, and one of the few reasons to pick up the Topeka Capital Journal newspaper. In fact, his column’s criticism of the proposed sale of KS Blue Cross Blue Shield to an Indiana conglomerate effectively killed the deal. He spends his days now trying to convince Kansans of the need for national health care, and frankly I think he is slowly succeeding.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
My girlfriend used to work in the business department at a hospital in Wichita, and I can say that from her stories about the number of emergency room treatments of uninsured people on a nightly basis - and the kind of money outlayed - I would not doubt for a second that at least half of personal bankruptcies come out of health care debts. And undoubtedly this money that hospitals and other health care providers face losing in bankruptcy courts are going to be recouped elsewhere, which is why health care for everybody is so high.
June 29th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
“Kansas used to be a hot bed for progressive populism”
Hell, Kansas used to be a hot bed for guerrilla warfare…
John Brown, et. al. !!!
June 30th, 2007 at 10:47 am
I think the answer is pretty obvious myself. This was an issue that both the liberal and conservative voters actually got together on and let their congressmen know how they felt.
I am proud to be a liberal, but I am tired of the immigrants bleeding our country dry. I have no problem with someone trying to better themselves, but you do it the right way. The right right way means going home and starting from scratch not being handed amnesty.
These people are breaking the law and as such shouldn’t be rewarded for it. Maybe if all of our tax dollars wasn’t going to sustain people who are here illegally, we would have enough money to take care of the people who are citizens.
June 30th, 2007 at 11:04 am
Anyone who seriously thinks that Alabama’s educational system is better than California’s will have to ask themselves why UC Berkeley and UCLA are such desireable stops for foreign students.
Only the besotted give a rat’s ass about pigskin! And that Tide ain’t exactly bowling them over these days.
(hate to clue you in Woody but the Bear is dead!)
June 30th, 2007 at 11:08 am
And Randy the GOP governor of Alabama tried to reform state finances by eliminating those regressive taxes and substituting a income tax but the yahoos in his own party defeated him.
All Alabamians care about is being slightly better than Missississippi and then they’re happy as hogs.
June 30th, 2007 at 11:23 am
RLC,
Alabama does have an income tax. I believe you’re thinking of Tennessee which doesn’t.
June 30th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Americans were fed up with being shut out of the immigration debate and thankfully, many talk show hosts gave us a voice. Secret deals behind closed doors with input from special business and Latino groups only killed this “amnesty fiasco”.
Diane Feinstein told her staff to ignore the callers protesting the bill, Trent Lott was infuriated people dared ring his office phone off the wall and stated something “would have to be done”. Is that a threat, considering Feinstein now wants to bring back the law that put a chill on news stations years ago ? If they don’t like the message, they try to find another way to silence the majority of Americans who are now demanding the current immigration laws being enforced.
We’re tired, fed up.
June 30th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
The implication that a majority of Americans opposed the immigration reform bill is simply false. A large majority supported the reform, some sort of amnest AND tightening borders/regulating employers. This bill was, in fact, mostly trashed by the hard right. I didn’t support the bill for a number of reasons and don’t mourn it, but this comment is an example of how hysterical and delusional many of the opponents have become.
July 4th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
I’ve got a novel idea, Maybe the right won because, outside of the small choir that consists of Marc Cooper and his leftest friends, most Americans have heard both sides of the issue and have sided with the anti-amnesty group. No bill would be better than the poor excuse for legislation that is the current bill. However, Cooper and company are in denial and cannot accept reality, and blame the failure on a small group of vocal Americans. Democracy anyone?
As to the idea that illegal aliens won’t go home, this is just wishful thinking on the part of the left. More raids, prosecutions of employers (the right insists), new state laws denying benefits, and driver’s licenses, can result in a slow repatriation. The plutocracy that is Mexico may finally be overthrown by an army of retreating immigrants. The citizens of Mexico who haven’t migrated may have a chance to get out of poverty, something that hasn’t concerned the sorry left bent on changing the American demographic at the expense of our citizens.
July 4th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Locicero, has anyone ever accused you of ignorance an bigotry? Well, if they haven’t, then I offer my accusation for starters. You know nothing of Alabama and you haven’t read any of Senator Session’s very rational arguments agains the Freddy Kreuger Bill. The bill was totally unrealistic in its approach to border security and was mainly comprehensive amnesty. The Congressional Budget Office evaluated the bill and determined that it would reduce immigration overall by something like 13 percent. Trish is right, the whole backroom dealing that created this bill is hypocritical of the Democrats, as that is exactly what they claimed made them different from Republicans.
July 5th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
CSPAN-2 doesn’t seem like such a swell idea anymore. You couldn’t watch 3 minutes of that immigration debate without being very worried and a little bit afraid that *something* very wrong was being slipped by everyone under cover of darkness.
September 29th, 2007 at 1:53 am
Matthw…
This was one time where I have to agree to disagree…